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Prof David West

millenarianism

I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Russ Abbott

Re: millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Prof David West

…or the 900 other people that they have infected in the meantime.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:23 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] millenarianism

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

------

davew

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Russ Abbott

Re: millenarianism

OK.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Russ Abbott

Re: millenarianism

What bothered me about davew's post was the insulting sarcasm.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

-- Russ

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, to be completely honest, I understand that particular itch rather less than some others. But David reads insatiably, often listens quite carefully and insightfully to what others say. So I value him, even though he seems to have this odd theory that shock increases the quality of argument. I guess, maybe, sometimes it does.

Thanks for your own provocations, over the years.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

OK.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Prof David West

There is a book titled "When Religion Becomes Evil" from Charles Kimball. Kimball tries to distinguish between "authentic" and "corrupt" forms of religious expression, and lists in his book five warning signs or symptoms of a religion which is becoming evil:

* Absolute truth claims to be the "only true religion"
* Blind obedience and total loyalty
* Establishing the "ideal" time
* The end justifies any means
* Declaring holy war

Point 3, the longing for a mythic past or an end time, might be related to what you mean by "millenarianism". Kimball's book was written shortly after 9/11 when people tried to understand the connection between religion and terrorism.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/6/20 03:23 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] millenarianism

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

------

davew

gepr

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Agreed. To be fair, though, just as Dave announced he had to leave the meeting, he was asked to quickly state why he thought the accusations against Trump supporters was a mischaracterization. He called out the anti-Trump crowd for over-generalizing those who voted for Trump and briefly described a few reasons a *heterogeneous* collection of people might have different reasons for doing so (conservative court appointments, tough talk to China, etc. -- arguably legitimate things some of us might want in a President). This post of his was, therefore, a legitimate response to that request, coming up with a narrative circumscribing the faulty thinking of the anti-Trump crowd.

However, in so doing, he attempts to right one wrong with another wrong. His post rightly calls out the over-generalizing fallacy of the anti-Trump by then over-generalizing (or outright false narrative cartooning) them. My tack would have been to demonstrate the diversity of the not-pro-but-not-anti Trump tolerators first. *Then* maybe dive into why the anti-Trump crowd exhibits such flawed thinking. And FWIW, I agree with his gist that the anti-Trump crowd is, at least a bit, eschatological. But I think lots of us, regardless of political bent, are eschatological. We see it in the Singularians, the bioethicists re: DIY Bio, ecologists, climatologists, Steve Guerins re: societal phase transitions >8^D, etc.

The story could easily be rounded out with a demonstration that the anti-Trump crowd is also diverse. Not all of us are eschatological. Some of us are simply embarrassed by him. I'll take an Evil Genius over a bumbling moron any day of the week. And my reasons for purposefully over-generalizing my characterization of the Trump tolerators as morons or cult members is a (likely misguided) attempt to shame or guilt them into thinking a little harder about who they vote for. It's got nothing to do with "millenarianism".

On 6/5/20 11:16 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: millenarianism

The situation really looks bad. After communism has collapsed, the West thought capitalism and democracy have won. They have won, for a short time. What we see now is a crisis of capitalism & globalisation: all the jobs went to China which fights democracy, and the unlimited exploitation of nature has caused the climate crisis (including wildfires as never before)

https://voiceofaction.org/collapse-of-civilisation-is-the-most-likely-outcome-top-climate-scientists/

What if Trump is only a symptom of a deeper problem: capitalism as a whole is on the road towards the end of civilization, and the looting has already started? Corrupt politicians and billionaires grab as much as they can before they disappear in New Zealand or in the bunker, where they are guarded by their own private army.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/6/20 16:30 (GMT+01:00)

To: FriAM <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen -

Your ability to demonstrate the "steelmanning" skill continues to
inspire me. I don't know if I am constitutionally capable of focusing
down on a single topic well enough to even begin to demonstrate it
myself.   I have been "fuming" over Dave's *written* response to Nick's
last minute challenge (on vFriAM) and wanting to challenge *HIM* to
steelman this for us.   I think you sketched it out for him here.   Dave
may well be as handicapped in this mode as I seem to be, but I would
value it if he could try. Dave?

Since vFriam degenerated to just 4 Brady Bunch characters (you, Nick,
Guerin, myself), nobody else observed the _role-playing_ that you and
Stephen both adopted so adroitly, calling up an alternative personality,
or homunculous or channeling of each of your own
cartoon-but-steelmannish characterization of a (naive?) Trump
Supporter. Even better, I felt, was the way Nick very good-naturedly
all but pleaded to your alternate characters to let "Stephen and Glen
come back! I don't even know who I am without you" (bad paraphrase,
worthy of correction by Nick if he feels misquoted).   I just observed,
winding up my whole body to throw myself between "Danny and ???" and
Nick if things got violent.   It was a fascinating moment.

- Steve

> Agreed. To be fair, though, just as Dave announced he had to leave the meeting, he was asked to quickly state why he thought the accusations against Trump supporters was a mischaracterization. He called out the anti-Trump crowd for over-generalizing those who voted for Trump and briefly described a few reasons a *heterogeneous* collection of people might have different reasons for doing so (conservative court appointments, tough talk to China, etc. -- arguably legitimate things some of us might want in a President). This post of his was, therefore, a legitimate response to that request, coming up with a narrative circumscribing the faulty thinking of the anti-Trump crowd.
>
> However, in so doing, he attempts to right one wrong with another wrong. His post rightly calls out the over-generalizing fallacy of the anti-Trump by then over-generalizing (or outright false narrative cartooning) them. My tack would have been to demonstrate the diversity of the not-pro-but-not-anti Trump tolerators first. *Then* maybe dive into why the anti-Trump crowd exhibits such flawed thinking. And FWIW, I agree with his gist that the anti-Trump crowd is, at least a bit, eschatological. But I think lots of us, regardless of political bent, are eschatological. We see it in the Singularians, the bioethicists re: DIY Bio, ecologists, climatologists, Steve Guerins re: societal phase transitions >8^D, etc.
>
> The story could easily be rounded out with a demonstration that the anti-Trump crowd is also diverse. Not all of us are eschatological. Some of us are simply embarrassed by him. I'll take an Evil Genius over a bumbling moron any day of the week. And my reasons for purposefully over-generalizing my characterization of the Trump tolerators as morons or cult members is a (likely misguided) attempt to shame or guilt them into thinking a little harder about who they vote for. It's got nothing to do with "millenarianism".
>
> On 6/5/20 11:16 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>> Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

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Prof David West

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ,

I apologize for any insulting sarcasm.

I forgot that most readers of those words did not share the context behind them and therefore did not see the amused smile on my face as I wrote them. The context was the first few meetings of the Mother Church immediately following the election. The mood of those meetings and the tenor of the discussion was pretty much exactly as my apocalyptic paragraph described.

I was perplexed, and amused, that such intelligent people would react that way. Nick, in particular, called me on that amusement, accused me of schadenfreude and we all engaged in very friendly, not sarcastic, not insulting, discussion.

davew

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, at 12:16 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

What bothered me about davew's post was the insulting sarcasm.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

-- Russ

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, to be completely honest, I understand that particular itch rather less than some others. But David reads insatiably, often listens quite carefully and insightfully to what others say. So I value him, even though he seems to have this odd theory that shock increases the quality of argument. I guess, maybe, sometimes it does.

Thanks for your own provocations, over the years.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

OK.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

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Prof David West

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Jochen,

Millenarianism focuses on a point of time and radical transformation from what was before that point and what would be after that point. 2012 was supposed to be the point where the World transformed from existence to non-existence. Both the 1899 and 1999, for more fundamentalist Christians were supposed to mark the end of Satan's rule and the beginning of Christ's thousand year reign (THE millennium).

The notion of an ideal time, and the supposed yearning among Trump followers for a return to the era of white male supremacy is irrelevant for millennarians — they are looking to an idea future time, yet to exist.

davew

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, at 1:09 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

There is a book titled "When Religion Becomes Evil" from Charles Kimball. Kimball tries to distinguish between "authentic" and "corrupt" forms of religious expression, and lists in his book five warning signs or symptoms of a religion which is becoming evil:

* Absolute truth claims to be the "only true religion"
* Blind obedience and total loyalty
* Establishing the "ideal" time
* The end justifies any means
* Declaring holy war

Point 3, the longing for a mythic past or an end time, might be related to what you mean by "millenarianism". Kimball's book was written shortly after 9/11 when people tried to understand the connection between religion and terrorism.

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>
Date: 6/6/20 03:23 (GMT+01:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

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Prof David West

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by gepr

glen and steve,

Nick made me do it. He asked the question. And I made the mistake or pretty much answering him, not the group as a whole with my * written * response. As noted in my apology to Russ, the general tenor of the paragraphs reflected the mood/tone and the mindset of those at the Mother Temple immediately post election — and my bemusement by it — but a tone that continues to reverberate.

The nearly three years of my regular attendance at FRIAM, post-election, I made frequent attempts to do just as you suggest - tease apart the threads of belief among both pro and anti-Trump camps. When it comes to political discussion, neither heterogeneity nor nuance seems to have much value. (I think this might count as steelmanning in some sense.)

My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

I am merely inept, not evil.

Although ...

"basket of deplorables" "10 to 15 percent of Americans are not very good people" I know they are talking about me. :)

davew

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, at 8:29 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

> Agreed. To be fair, though, just as Dave announced he had to leave the

> meeting, he was asked to quickly state why he thought the accusations

> against Trump supporters was a mischaracterization. He called out the

> anti-Trump crowd for over-generalizing those who voted for Trump and

> briefly described a few reasons a *heterogeneous* collection of people

> might have different reasons for doing so (conservative court

> appointments, tough talk to China, etc. -- arguably legitimate things

> some of us might want in a President). This post of his was, therefore,

> a legitimate response to that request, coming up with a narrative

> circumscribing the faulty thinking of the anti-Trump crowd.

> However, in so doing, he attempts to right one wrong with another

> wrong. His post rightly calls out the over-generalizing fallacy of the

> anti-Trump by then over-generalizing (or outright false narrative

> cartooning) them. My tack would have been to demonstrate the diversity

> of the not-pro-but-not-anti Trump tolerators first. *Then* maybe dive

> into why the anti-Trump crowd exhibits such flawed thinking. And FWIW,

> I agree with his gist that the anti-Trump crowd is, at least a bit,

> eschatological. But I think lots of us, regardless of political bent,

> are eschatological. We see it in the Singularians, the bioethicists re:

> DIY Bio, ecologists, climatologists, Steve Guerins re: societal phase

> transitions >8^D, etc.

> The story could easily be rounded out with a demonstration that the

> anti-Trump crowd is also diverse. Not all of us are eschatological.

> Some of us are simply embarrassed by him. I'll take an Evil Genius over

> a bumbling moron any day of the week. And my reasons for purposefully

> over-generalizing my characterization of the Trump tolerators as morons

> or cult members is a (likely misguided) attempt to shame or guilt them

> into thinking a little harder about who they vote for. It's got nothing

> to do with "millenarianism".

> On 6/5/20 11:16 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> > Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

> --

> ☣ uǝlƃ

> - .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-..

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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen,

This is a really good, fair-minded, explication of the rhetorical situation Dave was in.

I had to look up eschatological: Courtesy of wikipedia,

Eschatology /ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ (listen) is a part of theology concerned with the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity. This concept is commonly referred to as the "end of the world" or "end times".^[1]

Wow. Glad finally, after all those years, to have that one added to my lexicon. So, is this what I am accusing steve of when I accuse him of a “hankering”. Is this what Glen (?) was accusing ME of when he (?) accused me of a belief in progress. (Was Deweyism a form of eschatology? Who would have ever thought!) So Glen. What does the word mean to you? Does somebody who believes that history has a vector have thereby to be an eschatologist? Does the fact that Peirce believes that there are SOME truth and that some forms of inquiry seek these out and sometimes find them make him an Eschatologist? (That’s right, Nick, when you learn a new word, use it at least 6 times in the next ten sentences. )

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:30 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

However, in so doing, he attempts to right one wrong with another wrong. His post rightly calls out the over-generalizing fallacy of the anti-Trump by then over-generalizing (or outright false narrative cartooning) them. My tack would have been to demonstrate the diversity of the not-pro-but-not-anti Trump tolerators first. *Then* maybe dive into why the anti-Trump crowd exhibits such flawed thinking. And FWIW, I agree with his gist that the anti-Trump crowd is, at least a bit, eschatological. But I think lots of us, regardless of political bent, are eschatological. We see it in the Singularians, the bioethicists re: DIY Bio, ecologists, climatologists, Steve Guerins re: societal phase transitions >8^D, etc.

The story could easily be rounded out with a demonstration that the anti-Trump crowd is also diverse. Not all of us are eschatological. Some of us are simply embarrassed by him. I'll take an Evil Genius over a bumbling moron any day of the week. And my reasons for purposefully over-generalizing my characterization of the Trump tolerators as morons or cult members is a (likely misguided) attempt to shame or guilt them into thinking a little harder about who they vote for. It's got nothing to do with "millenarianism".

On 6/5/20 11:16 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

☣ uǝlƃ

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Russ Abbott

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Ok. Thanks, Dave.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 8:39 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

I apologize for any insulting sarcasm.

I forgot that most readers of those words did not share the context behind them and therefore did not see the amused smile on my face as I wrote them. The context was the first few meetings of the Mother Church immediately following the election. The mood of those meetings and the tenor of the discussion was pretty much exactly as my apocalyptic paragraph described.

I was perplexed, and amused, that such intelligent people would react that way. Nick, in particular, called me on that amusement, accused me of schadenfreude and we all engaged in very friendly, not sarcastic, not insulting, discussion.

davew

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, at 12:16 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
What bothered me about davew's post was the insulting sarcasm.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

-- Russ

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, to be completely honest, I understand that particular itch rather less than some others. But David reads insatiably, often listens quite carefully and insightfully to what others say. So I value him, even though he seems to have this odd theory that shock increases the quality of argument. I guess, maybe, sometimes it does.

Thanks for your own provocations, over the years.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

OK.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

I actually don’t understand why people consider the social lubrication provide by non-verbal, in-person communication a good thing. It seems to be widely believed that it is good if people don’t offend one another, and that in-person communication makes that easier.

If there is a lack of context in a message, and some of the contexts would be offensive to some audience, then it is just as true in person.

If someone smiles when they say it, really what is the difference? Maybe what they are really doing is trying to bias the distribution of received interpretations to benign ones, while at the same time disseminating and normalizing the not-so-benign interpretations?

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 10:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Ok. Thanks, Dave.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 8:39 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

I apologize for any insulting sarcasm.

I forgot that most readers of those words did not share the context behind them and therefore did not see the amused smile on my face as I wrote them. The context was the first few meetings of the Mother Church immediately following the election. The mood of those meetings and the tenor of the discussion was pretty much exactly as my apocalyptic paragraph described.

I was perplexed, and amused, that such intelligent people would react that way. Nick, in particular, called me on that amusement, accused me of schadenfreude and we all engaged in very friendly, not sarcastic, not insulting, discussion.

davew

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, at 12:16 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

What bothered me about davew's post was the insulting sarcasm.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

-- Russ

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, to be completely honest, I understand that particular itch rather less than some others. But David reads insatiably, often listens quite carefully and insightfully to what others say. So I value him, even though he seems to have this odd theory that shock increases the quality of argument. I guess, maybe, sometimes it does.

Thanks for your own provocations, over the years.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>

Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:05 PM

To: [hidden email]

Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

OK.

-- Russ Abbott

Professor, Computer Science

California State University, Los Angeles

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott

Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

Marcus –

Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 11:30 AM
To: [hidden email]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

If there is a lack of context in a message, and some of the contexts would be offensive to some audience, then it is just as true in person.

Ok. Thanks, Dave.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 8:39 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

I apologize for any insulting sarcasm.

I forgot that most readers of those words did not share the context behind them and therefore did not see the amused smile on my face as I wrote them. The context was the first few meetings of the Mother Church immediately following the election. The mood of those meetings and the tenor of the discussion was pretty much exactly as my apocalyptic paragraph described.

I was perplexed, and amused, that such intelligent people would react that way. Nick, in particular, called me on that amusement, accused me of schadenfreude and we all engaged in very friendly, not sarcastic, not insulting, discussion.

davew

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, at 12:16 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
What bothered me about davew's post was the insulting sarcasm.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Presumably, davew doesn't believe that the preceding characterizes the way any living human being thinks. So why pretend that it does other than to insult people? And why does he want to insult people? We don't need any more of that. We are already fully supplied with insults from the insulter-in-chief. Let's not make things worse.

-- Russ

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, to be completely honest, I understand that particular itch rather less than some others. But David reads insatiably, often listens quite carefully and insightfully to what others say. So I value him, even though he seems to have this odd theory that shock increases the quality of argument. I guess, maybe, sometimes it does.

Thanks for your own provocations, over the years.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 11:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

OK.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aw come on, Russ. We all have itches. Let him scratch.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 7:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I completely agree. It is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. More importantly, it's primarily name-calling with little useful substance.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:23 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was asked some questions just as I was leaving vFRIAM today. The following is a continuation of the thoughts that i started to articulate then. I can pretty much predict that no one will agree with my observations, but hope that vituperation will be kept to a minimum.

My last year at St. Thomas, I team taught an honors course with a Professor of Catholic Theology. The topic was "Millenarianism in1899 and 1999." His contribution centered on religious movements, including some within Catholicism, and mine was ethnographic.

The groups we studied and taught about were about 2/3 preparing for the End Times, the other third focused more on what you might call a socio-cultural phase change, a transformation of society.

The role of an anthropologist is "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." A prime example of the latter is found in the various studies of the Nacerima.

"The main belief of the Nacirema appears to be that the human body is ugly and that the only way to prevent it from growing weak and diseased is to practice powerful rituals devoted to this purpose. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this goal. The more powerful people in the society have several ritual shrine rooms in their houses. ... While almost every family has at least one shrine in the home, the ritual ceremonies associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally discussed only with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries."

If I were to write an ethnography of FRIAM, one chapter would be devoted to Millenarianism, especially as practiced at the Mother Temple.

A calendrical event precipitated the overt expression of millenarian behavior and thought. instead of the turn of a century (1899, 19990 or the end of a calendar (2012), it was the election of 2016.

A Trump was sounded (pun intentional) in the heavens, opening the Doors of Hell and loosing the Dogs of Chaos. The end was clearly nigh. 'He' had his finger on the button of nuclear annihilation! 'He' is a Russian agent! 'He' is certifiably insane (narcissistic personality disorder at minimum)! More concerning, the conviction that once installed 'He' would never leave. American was at the verge of a precipitous drop into Fascism.

Basically, destruction was at hand The Learned Authorities confirmed every fear. The Forces of Good were marshalled, and salvationary doctrine was issued. The Good marched, multiple crusades were launched to retrieve the Holy Land from the Infidel(s).

The system of beliefs, the reading of omens, the predictions and the prognostication of the Millenarians of 1899,199,and 2012 survived but a few days or months. That of 2016 persists to date, and will persist, I am pretty sure, for another four years.

Millenarianism is a mind set, a perspective, that takes hold in a culture, or subculture, and predisposes the manner in which other events, other aspects of the world, are interpreted. It affects how, and by what process, people make decisions, individually and collectively.

COVID, and the response thereto, is an example. From the point that people began taking it seriously, it was interpreted as yet another apocalyptic disaster to be laid at 'His' door. Correct courses of action are given credence in direct proportion to their opposition to what 'He' might have said or opined.

Arcana, e.g. the Master Question List that Nick distributed and the "official pandemic models," are consulted. Convoluted combinations of interpretations of elements of that arcana, determine how questions like, "Is it safe to walk the streets of Wuhan on June 6, 2020? Simpler ways to answer that question are available but ignored. For example, some 10 million people, over half the population, in Wuhan have been tested. Only 300, all of them asymptomatic, have tested positive. What are the odds of meeting one of those positives on my stroll to the 'wet market'?

------

I know the preceding is assertive, bombastic, and stated without nuance. But, it is not wrong, in the sense that if I were to write a book, i could document and argue point by point to the same conclusions.

davew

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Stephen Guerin-5

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Davew writes:
My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

FWIW, I very much appreciated the flip and was surprised it got a rise.

Relatedly, I have used a Anihc Technique when discussing with my family on the over-reach of China's military and Secret Police outside of China. I use the 2013 case of how China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) pursued the organizers of the 2013 Tiananmen Square Attack. The "Uighur 8" terrorists escaped Xinjiang and ultimately made it to Mexico to sneak across the border near Nogales and holed up in a small compound near Patagonia, AZ. The Chinese MSS launched a secret drone strike killing the 8. Unfortunately, there was a wedding going on at the Circle Z Ranch where 3 Americans were killed and 12 injured. The renewal of the TPA negotiations were going on and Obama and the CIA covered this up as a fake propane tank explosion negotiations on track. Fox News and Breittbart have a longstanding FOIA request for AmeriGas response records but this has been stonewalled and redacted for 7 years trying to uncover this story. Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil?

Here's the Chinese Account of the Story:
同志们，当然，中国没有在亚利桑那州进行无人驾驶飞机攻击，我将其用作美国在也门使用无人机的类比。

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin-5

Stephen writes:

< Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil? >

China and the US are superpowers, and Yemen has a GDP smaller than Vermont’s.

Marcus

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