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millenarianism

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gepr

Re: millenarianism

No, I don't take the concept(s) of eschatology to imply "history has a vector". I suppose it's almost the opposite, that even if there is some (or are several) identifiable vectors, those trends will be disrupted. But not merely disrupted in a haphazard way, disrupted with that feeling of ecstasy or doom. "Going to Hell in a handbasket". Tool's "Mom's coming 'round to put it back the way it oughtta beeeeeee!" The Rapture. Etc. To me, whether there's a stable "phase" on the other side of the "phase transition" or not is irrelevant to the category. What matters is that Doomsayers and prophets talk in these terms. Whatever it is you think you know, in XYZ years, you won't recognize it.

Pffft. Go on, pull the other one.

On 6/6/20 9:56 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> So Glen. What does the word mean to you? Does somebody who believes that history has a vector have thereby to be an eschatologist? Does the fact that Peirce believes that there are SOME truth and that some forms of inquiry seek these out and sometimes find them make him an Eschatologist? (That’s right, Nick, when you learn a new word, use it at least 6 times in the next ten sentences. )

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: millenarianism

Nick,

I wonder if communicatory behavior is rewarding in its own right just as consummatory behavior is.

Meta:

I don't know if "communicatory" is a word. But I wanted parallel with "consummatory".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

My point is that adding a virtual smiley, patting someone on that back, etc. can be forms of manipulation. People that are prone to feeling tone and delivery rather before deconstructing content are vulnerable to that kind of manipulation. Any intent can be stated for some something in a situation when someone gets upset. There’s plenty of reason to be doubtful of such claims.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 11:54 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Well, as an ethologist, I should be the first at that barricade. So thanks for reminding me.

Examining my own experience, I can only say that you are correct that there is direct pleasure in developing an argument, as “tactile” as the pleasure of forming Silly Putty into smooth balls or blowing bubbles with bubblegum. But that pleasure is eliminated IMMEDIATELY and completely, if I imagine that nobody will ever read and understand what I wrote. That’s a paradox, and one I don’t entirely understand.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 1:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick,

I wonder if communicatory behavior is rewarding in its own right just as consummatory behavior is.

Meta:

I don't know if "communicatory" is a word. But I wanted parallel with "consummatory".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

It’s because we were ruined.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 12:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Well, as an ethologist, I should be the first at that barricade. So thanks for reminding me.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick,

I wonder if communicatory behavior is rewarding in its own right just as consummatory behavior is.

Meta:

I don't know if "communicatory" is a word. But I wanted parallel with "consummatory".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

word of the day: "Eschatology"

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

I had to look up eschatological: Courtesy of wikipedia,

Eschatology /ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ (listen) is a part of theology concerned with the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity. This concept is commonly referred to as the "end of the world" or "end times".^[1]

^{Not to be confused with Ichtyology nor scatology... (though
that is always my first impulse).}

Wow. Glad finally, after all those years, to have that one added to my lexicon. So, is this what I am accusing steve of when I accuse him of a “hankering”. Is this what Glen (?) was accusing ME of when he (?) accused me of a belief in progress. (Was Deweyism a form of eschatology? Who would have ever thought!) So Glen. What does the word mean to you? Does somebody who believes that history has a vector have thereby to be an eschatologist? Does the fact that Peirce believes that there are SOME truth and that some forms of inquiry seek these out and sometimes find them make him an Eschatologist? (That’s right, Nick, when you learn a new word, use it at least 6 times in the next ten sentences. )

Maybe you and I had the same 5th Grade Teacher.? She did me two HUGE favors which have lasted all of my life:

1) her weekly spelling assignments included a requirement for each of us to write a short-story using all of her spelling words (maybe 8-10?), with no grading on anything except proper spelling of the word (naturally) and proper usage. Grammar, sense-making, and quality of story were not graded, though we all enjoyed it greatly when she read our story out loud to the class (<20 kids). THAT honor was based on those other qualities, but not helping/hurting our grade in spelling.

2) It was the year New Math hit our backwoods school system, and it overwhelmed her. For some reason, those 5th-grade-calibrated story problems made perfect sense to me, so she often asked me to explain them to the class. I'm guessing my explanation saved her the trouble/embarassment of trying but I'm not sure that my exposition for the class did anything for any of them... they probably all just nodded and pretended to write, hoping I would hurry up and finish my lame attempts to make the inscrutable scrutable. They didn't have a <delete> nor <next> button on their mimeograph sheets... can you still smell the Banana-esque esters?

You can probably blame Ms. Naranjo for my penchant for "story".

- Steve

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus wrote:

I actually don’t understand why people consider the social lubrication provide by non-verbal, in-person communication a good thing. It seems to be widely believed that it is good if people don’t offend one another, and that in-person communication makes that easier.

If there is a lack of context in a message, and some of the contexts would be offensive to some audience, then it is just as true in person.

If someone smiles when they say it, really what is the difference? Maybe what they are really doing is trying to bias the distribution of received interpretations to benign ones, while at the same time disseminating and normalizing the not-so-benign interpretations?

... and add the insidiousness of NLP and it gets yet more interesting...

I personally appreciate both modes A LOT. I've learned some interesting/important things about some of the "voices" on this list by meeting the very same people in person, and/or on Video Chat. When we are doing the "brady bunch" thing on zoom, it helps me to see who is listening to who with what posture before they respond. I *believe* I can read some of that stuff effectively over video, but I could be wrong. I also appreciate the more thoughtful, introspective responses that text allows with it's asynchronous nature... and the "distance" of space/time/txt. I also accept/acknowledge that everyone has their own comfort with different "modes".

I do like your phrase: "trying to bias the distribution of received interpretations to benign ones, while at the same time disseminating and normalizing the not-so-benign interpretations". I'm only passingly familiar with NLP but I've experienced this many times (mostly from evil bosses and salespeople) and can't believe it isn't a learned skill with a whole section in the training manual.

- Steve

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin-5

SG -

Davew writes:

My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

FWIW, I very much appreciated the flip and was surprised it got a rise.

Relatedly, I have used a Anihc Technique when discussing with my family on the over-reach of China's military and Secret Police outside of China. I use the 2013 case of how China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) pursued the organizers of the 2013 Tiananmen Square Attack. The "Uighur 8" terrorists escaped Xinjiang and ultimately made it to Mexico to sneak across the border near Nogales and holed up in a small compound near Patagonia, AZ. The Chinese MSS launched a secret drone strike killing the 8. Unfortunately, there was a wedding going on at the Circle Z Ranch where 3 Americans were killed and 12 injured. The renewal of the TPA negotiations were going on and Obama and the CIA covered this up as a fake propane tank explosion negotiations on track. Fox News and Breittbart have a longstanding FOIA request for AmeriGas response records but this has been stonewalled and redacted for 7 years trying to uncover this story. Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil?

First... I don't know the term Anihc Technique and my Google Fu is too weak today to find it apparently? Inform me? Or did you just punk us (me) with a made-up but authoritatively esoteric-sounding term? You've punked me before and I'm sure you will do it again. Buh! Did you know that "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

Wow! That is really close to where I own a piece of land where I have been building my "bolthole" to prepare for the Apocalypto. I can't believe I didn't know about this! I guess I'm going to have to add anti-drone SAMs to my arsenal... or step up my biohacking to re-introduce Pteradactyl Genes into Bald Eagles to "capture them for salvage/re-use". And I recommend taking the time to build a biogas reactor as an alternative to Propane... (because Apocalypse!).

Here's the Chinese Account of the Story:
同志们，当然，中国没有在亚利桑那州进行无人驾驶飞机攻击，我将其用作美国在也门使用无人机的类比。

Punked again!

- SS

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: millenarianism

Am I reading this right? The attack actually happened in Yemen and was carried out by the US but went unnoticed. The setting was changed to Arizona with Chinese perpetrators to demonstrate what a difference that would have made.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 3:47 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

SG -

Davew writes:

My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

FWIW, I very much appreciated the flip and was surprised it got a rise.

Relatedly, I have used a Anihc Technique when discussing with my family on the over-reach of China's military and Secret Police outside of China. I use the 2013 case of how China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) pursued the organizers of the 2013 Tiananmen Square Attack. The "Uighur 8" terrorists escaped Xinjiang and ultimately made it to Mexico to sneak across the border near Nogales and holed up in a small compound near Patagonia, AZ. The Chinese MSS launched a secret drone strike killing the 8. Unfortunately, there was a wedding going on at the Circle Z Ranch where 3 Americans were killed and 12 injured. The renewal of the TPA negotiations were going on and Obama and the CIA covered this up as a fake propane tank explosion negotiations on track. Fox News and Breittbart have a longstanding FOIA request for AmeriGas response records but this has been stonewalled and redacted for 7 years trying to uncover this story. Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil?

First... I don't know the term Anihc Technique and my Google Fu is too weak today to find it apparently? Inform me? Or did you just punk us (me) with a made-up but authoritatively esoteric-sounding term? You've punked me before and I'm sure you will do it again. Buh! Did you know that "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

Wow! That is really close to where I own a piece of land where I have been building my "bolthole" to prepare for the Apocalypto. I can't believe I didn't know about this! I guess I'm going to have to add anti-drone SAMs to my arsenal... or step up my biohacking to re-introduce Pteradactyl Genes into Bald Eagles to "capture them for salvage/re-use". And I recommend taking the time to build a biogas reactor as an alternative to Propane... (because Apocalypse!).

Here's the Chinese Account of the Story:
同志们，当然，中国没有在亚利桑那州进行无人驾驶飞机攻击，我将其用作美国在也门使用无人机的类比。

Punked again!

- SS

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Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick wrote:

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).

I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*. So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here? Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)? Mental Masturbation? Dominance Aggression? Random Neuromuscular Spasms?

Marcus has stated (or implied) something closer to anarchism as a philosophy/politic (again, I'm prepared to be corrected). I also value that perspective... like out free-marketing the free-marketers, or out darwining the Darwinians. I believe we are *very* selective as to which rules to put in place and enforce, and it is that selectivity that leads to many of our problems. I have at least one friend who has a very paradoxical/hypocritical? style of wanting to "pass laws against passing stupid laws" and "punish extremely, those who wield extreme authority". We are in agreement on a LOT but there is a "cusp in his manifold" on this one (nod to Frank... I know there are no cusps in manifolds...).

Blather,

- Steve

Stephen Guerin-5

Uighurs wobble but they don't fall down (was Re: millenarianism)

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

I was riffing on what Dave wrote about his use of the Nacerima Technique(American Backwards) which I quoted at the head. eg anthropologists describing American culture to American students (eg teeth-brushing) as if it was a strange ritual described by an ethnographer that didn't understand its purpose.

Davew writes:
My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

I was explaining my Anihc (China) Technique that I really do use with my family when we have discussions on the US sending assassin drones into countries we're not at war with. They seem to think the US is wholly justified because we're chasing "terrorists" albeit with regrettable civilian casualties but consider it inexcusable when I flip to the artificial case of China drone striking Uighur "terrorists" (Terrorism in China) in Patagonia, AZ with American civilian collateral damage.

-S

_______________________________________________________________________
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On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:47 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

SG -

Davew writes:

My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

FWIW, I very much appreciated the flip and was surprised it got a rise.

Relatedly, I have used a Anihc Technique when discussing with my family on the over-reach of China's military and Secret Police outside of China. I use the 2013 case of how China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) pursued the organizers of the 2013 Tiananmen Square Attack. The "Uighur 8" terrorists escaped Xinjiang and ultimately made it to Mexico to sneak across the border near Nogales and holed up in a small compound near Patagonia, AZ. The Chinese MSS launched a secret drone strike killing the 8. Unfortunately, there was a wedding going on at the Circle Z Ranch where 3 Americans were killed and 12 injured. The renewal of the TPA negotiations were going on and Obama and the CIA covered this up as a fake propane tank explosion negotiations on track. Fox News and Breittbart have a longstanding FOIA request for AmeriGas response records but this has been stonewalled and redacted for 7 years trying to uncover this story. Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil?

First... I don't know the term Anihc Technique and my Google Fu is too weak today to find it apparently? Inform me? Or did you just punk us (me) with a made-up but authoritatively esoteric-sounding term? You've punked me before and I'm sure you will do it again. Buh! Did you know that "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

Wow! That is really close to where I own a piece of land where I have been building my "bolthole" to prepare for the Apocalypto. I can't believe I didn't know about this! I guess I'm going to have to add anti-drone SAMs to my arsenal... or step up my biohacking to re-introduce Pteradactyl Genes into Bald Eagles to "capture them for salvage/re-use". And I recommend taking the time to build a biogas reactor as an alternative to Propane... (because Apocalypse!).

Here's the Chinese Account of the Story:
同志们，当然，中国没有在亚利桑那州进行无人驾驶飞机攻击，我将其用作美国在也门使用无人机的类比。

Punked again!

- SS

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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thompnickson2

Re: word of the day: "Eschatology"

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 2:50 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

Nick -

I had to look up eschatological: Courtesy of wikipedia,
Eschatology /ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ (listen) is a part of theology concerned with the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity. This concept is commonly referred to as the "end of the world" or "end times".^[1]

^{Not to be confused with Ichtyology nor scatology... (though that is always my first impulse).}

Wow. Glad finally, after all those years, to have that one added to my lexicon. So, is this what I am accusing steve of when I accuse him of a “hankering”. Is this what Glen (?) was accusing ME of when he (?) accused me of a belief in progress. (Was Deweyism a form of eschatology? Who would have ever thought!) So Glen. What does the word mean to you? Does somebody who believes that history has a vector have thereby to be an eschatologist? Does the fact that Peirce believes that there are SOME truth and that some forms of inquiry seek these out and sometimes find them make him an Eschatologist? (That’s right, Nick, when you learn a new word, use it at least 6 times in the next ten sentences. )

Maybe you and I had the same 5th Grade Teacher.? She did me two HUGE favors which have lasted all of my life:

You can probably blame Ms. Naranjo for my penchant for "story".

- Steve

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve writes:

< I have at least one friend who has a very paradoxical/hypocritical? style of wanting to "pass laws against passing stupid laws" and "punish extremely, those who wield extreme authority". >

A few yielding influence over many is a more serious thing than many exerting influence over a few (that deserve it).

Marcus

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

Examining my own experience, I can only say that you are correct that there is direct pleasure in developing an argument, as “tactile” as the pleasure of forming Silly Putty into smooth balls or blowing bubbles with bubblegum.

You do know which is which I hope? I don't know WHY they developed Silly Putty to have such a similar color, I can still taste the stuff... and it isn't nearly as benign as chalk, crayons, lincoln logs, or horsehoof glue.

But that pleasure is eliminated IMMEDIATELY and completely, if I imagine that nobody will ever read and understand what I wrote. That’s a paradox, and one I don’t entirely understand.

Thus my blathering here when I could (should?) just as well be directing all (most) of this into my journal, my blog, my memoirs, or my Great Post-Murrican Novel.

- Steve

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus -

It’s because we were ruined.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

Thus Amateur

"Historically, the amateur was considered to be the ideal balance between pure intent, open mind, and the interest or passion for a subject."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur

It feels like a conflict of interest for a "fine artist" for example to try to make a living as a "commercial artist".... the tools, techniques, and skills may have a lot of overlap, but I think one type of intention/motivation/constraint interferes with the other.

In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):

“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”

Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this... the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.

- Steve

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Frank -

Am I reading this right? The attack actually happened in Yemen and was carried out by the US but went unnoticed. The setting was changed to Arizona with Chinese perpetrators to demonstrate what a difference that would have made.

?

Thus "punked"...

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 3:47 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

SG -

Davew writes:

My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

FWIW, I very much appreciated the flip and was surprised it got a rise.

Relatedly, I have used a Anihc Technique when discussing with my family on the over-reach of China's military and Secret Police outside of China. I use the 2013 case of how China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) pursued the organizers of the 2013 Tiananmen Square Attack. The "Uighur 8" terrorists escaped Xinjiang and ultimately made it to Mexico to sneak across the border near Nogales and holed up in a small compound near Patagonia, AZ. The Chinese MSS launched a secret drone strike killing the 8. Unfortunately, there was a wedding going on at the Circle Z Ranch where 3 Americans were killed and 12 injured. The renewal of the TPA negotiations were going on and Obama and the CIA covered this up as a fake propane tank explosion negotiations on track. Fox News and Breittbart have a longstanding FOIA request for AmeriGas response records but this has been stonewalled and redacted for 7 years trying to uncover this story. Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil?

First... I don't know the term Anihc Technique and my Google Fu is too weak today to find it apparently? Inform me? Or did you just punk us (me) with a made-up but authoritatively esoteric-sounding term? You've punked me before and I'm sure you will do it again. Buh! Did you know that "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

Wow! That is really close to where I own a piece of land where I have been building my "bolthole" to prepare for the Apocalypto. I can't believe I didn't know about this! I guess I'm going to have to add anti-drone SAMs to my arsenal... or step up my biohacking to re-introduce Pteradactyl Genes into Bald Eagles to "capture them for salvage/re-use". And I recommend taking the time to build a biogas reactor as an alternative to Propane... (because Apocalypse!).

Here's the Chinese Account of the Story:
同志们，当然，中国没有在亚利桑那州进行无人驾驶飞机攻击，我将其用作美国在也门使用无人机的类比。

Punked again!

- SS

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Steve Smith

Re: Uighurs wobble but they don't fall down (was Re: millenarianism)

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin-5

SG -

Definitely "got all that" except for the Nacerima/Anihc business. Being fairly phonologically fluid doesn't translate well for me to be anagramically so, for some reason!

I was attempting my own "pretend naivete" regarding the location of the strike which IS near and dear to my heart (canelo, az), though I have NOT built a bunker much less cached any weapons there. The Steens (Canelo Project) wrote the classic book on Straw Bale architecture and Athena is Santa Clara and her sister is our own famous Roxanne Swentzell.

I use(d) "punked" to reference the business of making me think one thing was happening and then handing me a surprise that left me embarrassed for what I assumed.

- SS

Steve,

I was riffing on what Dave wrote about his use of the Nacerima Technique(American Backwards) which I quoted at the head. eg anthropologists describing American culture to American students (eg teeth-brushing) as if it was a strange ritual described by an ethnographer that didn't understand its purpose.

Davew writes:
My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

I was explaining my Anihc (China) Technique that I really do use with my family when we have discussions on the US sending assassin drones into countries we're not at war with. They seem to think the US is wholly justified because we're chasing "terrorists" albeit with regrettable civilian casualties but consider it inexcusable when I flip to the artificial case of China drone striking Uighur "terrorists" (Terrorism in China) in Patagonia, AZ with American civilian collateral damage.

-S

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On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:47 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

SG -

Davew writes:

My rationale for the millennarian wrapper around my reply was not for comparison. It was a bad attempt to use the Nacerima technique to make "the familiar strange" in a way that allows people to become aware of that which they take for granted or to which they are usually blind - in the way that most people are unaware of the culture within which they are embedded.

FWIW, I very much appreciated the flip and was surprised it got a rise.

Relatedly, I have used a Anihc Technique when discussing with my family on the over-reach of China's military and Secret Police outside of China. I use the 2013 case of how China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) pursued the organizers of the 2013 Tiananmen Square Attack. The "Uighur 8" terrorists escaped Xinjiang and ultimately made it to Mexico to sneak across the border near Nogales and holed up in a small compound near Patagonia, AZ. The Chinese MSS launched a secret drone strike killing the 8. Unfortunately, there was a wedding going on at the Circle Z Ranch where 3 Americans were killed and 12 injured. The renewal of the TPA negotiations were going on and Obama and the CIA covered this up as a fake propane tank explosion negotiations on track. Fox News and Breittbart have a longstanding FOIA request for AmeriGas response records but this has been stonewalled and redacted for 7 years trying to uncover this story. Shouldn't China be held accountable to those American Families? How could Obama allow China to get away with launching a drone attack on sovereign US soil?

First... I don't know the term Anihc Technique and my Google Fu is too weak today to find it apparently? Inform me? Or did you just punk us (me) with a made-up but authoritatively esoteric-sounding term? You've punked me before and I'm sure you will do it again. Buh! Did you know that "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

Wow! That is really close to where I own a piece of land where I have been building my "bolthole" to prepare for the Apocalypto. I can't believe I didn't know about this! I guess I'm going to have to add anti-drone SAMs to my arsenal... or step up my biohacking to re-introduce Pteradactyl Genes into Bald Eagles to "capture them for salvage/re-use". And I recommend taking the time to build a biogas reactor as an alternative to Propane... (because Apocalypse!).

Here's the Chinese Account of the Story:
同志们，当然，中国没有在亚利桑那州进行无人驾驶飞机攻击，我将其用作美国在也门使用无人机的类比。

Punked again!

- SS

- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
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Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Steve Smith

Re: word of the day: "Eschatology"

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?

Nah, but my 4th grade teacher drew her own maps on mimeograph. When we were studying Europe, she left out Switzerland. When she handed out the unmarked maps as homework and asked us to fill in the country names and place/identify their capitals, I noticed she had left out Switzerland! I raised my hand, waited for her to call on me, then politely (or possibly too eagerly) asked "Where is Switzerland?". I don't remember what happened next... but she basically told me to "shut up". I did. But I did not do *any more* Geography homework (or at least her hand-drawn map) assignments for the rest of the year.

When I flunked (who gets an F in a class in 4th grade?) the class, my parents intervened and made the deal with her that she would pass me if/when I did all the homework that summer. It grated the hell out of me, but I remember whipping out the whole year of assignments in the first week (or so) because we didn't not do what our parents told us to, even if we sometimes didn't do what our teachers told us to do. I had, after all, paid attention in class and *read the book* as I was as fascinated with geography as anything else... I held the line on the Europe-sans-Switzerland assignment and my parents acquiesced. I *LIKE* to think that Ms. McCarty was more careful with her maps after I (innocently) asked her about "Switzerland?".

Later she told me to shut up when she was teaching "weather" and my father had just shown me (he took daily meteorological readings at the USFS offices) about wet-bulb temperature and even alcohol thermometers (which are preferred over mercury ones for very low temperature use)... the "shut up" came when I raised my hand and asked if the thermometer she was showing us was mercury or alcohol. I think she said "there is no such thing" before she told me to shut up. I don't know why she ever called on me, but then one could ask why I ever bothered to raise my hand. I think I did cut way back on that as the year progressed.

Did your first grade teacher break a ruler on your knuckles for having bad penmanship (age 6) ? And I didn't even go to Catholic School! Her name was Mrs. Hay and *should have been* a Nun...

- Steve

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

On 6/6/20 4:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Steve writes:

< I have at least one friend who has a very paradoxical/hypocritical? style of wanting to "pass laws against passing stupid laws" and "punish extremely, those who wield extreme authority". >

A few yielding influence over many is a more serious thing than many exerting influence over a few (that deserve it).

Marcus

I'm in sympathy with his (and your) gist... I just don't believe that the means/ends conflation doesn't eventually lead you right back to the abuses you were trying to right. The common? revolutionary leaders who get installed as the new "leader of the nation" only for everyone else to discover that power in fact does corrupt.

I think there is a literal paradox in the "passing laws against stupid laws".

I love me some good vigilante fantasy as much as anyone, but I think the torches and the pitchforks should at best be used to take the power out of the hands of the despot, not to exact revenge (beyond the humiliation and fear perhaps of losing the power so abruptly).

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