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millenarianism

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David Eric Smith

Re: millenarianism

I don’t know if this embeds within Nick’s thread, but it is a lovely bookend to Marcus’s link:

https://econpapers.repec.org/article/ucpjlstud/v_3a29_3ay_3a2000_3ai_3a1_3ap_3a1-17.htm

Monetization of high-dimensional things, whether positive or negative, is a death knell.

Eric

On Jun 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It’s because we were ruined.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 12:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Well, as an ethologist, I should be the first at that barricade. So thanks for reminding me.

Examining my own experience, I can only say that you are correct that there is direct pleasure in developing an argument, as “tactile” as the pleasure of forming Silly Putty into smooth balls or blowing bubbles with bubblegum. But that pleasure is eliminated IMMEDIATELY and completely, if I imagine that nobody will ever read and understand what I wrote. That’s a paradox, and one I don’t entirely understand.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 1:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick,

I wonder if communicatory behavior is rewarding in its own right just as consummatory behavior is.

Meta:

I don't know if "communicatory" is a word. But I wanted parallel with "consummatory".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus

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thompnickson2

Re: word of the day: "Eschatology"

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

When I was on sabbatical in England and feeling Very homesick, I set about to draw a memory map of the United States. I was really pleased with the result, and showed off with pride to my family. One of my children pointed out to me that I had only 49 states. Can you guess which one I left out?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

Nick -

One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?

Nah, but my 4th grade teacher drew her own maps on mimeograph. When we were studying Europe, she left out Switzerland. When she handed out the unmarked maps as homework and asked us to fill in the country names and place/identify their capitals, I noticed she had left out Switzerland! I raised my hand, waited for her to call on me, then politely (or possibly too eagerly) asked "Where is Switzerland?". I don't remember what happened next... but she basically told me to "shut up". I did. But I did not do *any more* Geography homework (or at least her hand-drawn map) assignments for the rest of the year.

When I flunked (who gets an F in a class in 4th grade?) the class, my parents intervened and made the deal with her that she would pass me if/when I did all the homework that summer. It grated the hell out of me, but I remember whipping out the whole year of assignments in the first week (or so) because we didn't not do what our parents told us to, even if we sometimes didn't do what our teachers told us to do. I had, after all, paid attention in class and *read the book* as I was as fascinated with geography as anything else... I held the line on the Europe-sans-Switzerland assignment and my parents acquiesced. I *LIKE* to think that Ms. McCarty was more careful with her maps after I (innocently) asked her about "Switzerland?".

Later she told me to shut up when she was teaching "weather" and my father had just shown me (he took daily meteorological readings at the USFS offices) about wet-bulb temperature and even alcohol thermometers (which are preferred over mercury ones for very low temperature use)... the "shut up" came when I raised my hand and asked if the thermometer she was showing us was mercury or alcohol. I think she said "there is no such thing" before she told me to shut up. I don't know why she ever called on me, but then one could ask why I ever bothered to raise my hand. I think I did cut way back on that as the year progressed.

Did your first grade teacher break a ruler on your knuckles for having bad penmanship (age 6) ? And I didn't even go to Catholic School! Her name was Mrs. Hay and *should have been* a Nun...

- Steve

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: word of the day: "Eschatology"

New Mexico

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 8:34 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

When I was on sabbatical in England and feeling Very homesick, I set about to draw a memory map of the United States. I was really pleased with the result, and showed off with pride to my family. One of my children pointed out to me that I had only 49 states.   Can you guess which one I left out?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

Nick -

One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?
Nah, but my 4th grade teacher drew her own maps on mimeograph. When we were studying Europe, she left out Switzerland.   When she handed out the unmarked maps as homework and asked us to fill in the country names and place/identify their capitals, I noticed she had left out Switzerland!   I raised my hand, waited for her to call on me, then politely (or possibly too eagerly) asked "Where is Switzerland?".   I don't remember what happened next... but she basically told me to "shut up".   I did.   But I did not do *any more* Geography homework (or at least her hand-drawn map) assignments for the rest of the year.
When I flunked (who gets an F in a class in 4th grade?) the class, my parents intervened and made the deal with her that she would pass me if/when I did all the homework that summer.   It grated the hell out of me, but I remember whipping out the whole year of assignments in the first week (or so) because we didn't not do what our parents told us to, even if we sometimes didn't do what our teachers told us to do. I had, after all, paid attention in class and *read the book* as I was as fascinated with geography as anything else...   I held the line on the Europe-sans-Switzerland assignment and my parents acquiesced. I *LIKE* to think that Ms. McCarty was more careful with her maps after I (innocently) asked her about "Switzerland?".
Later she told me to shut up when she was teaching "weather" and my father had just shown me (he took daily meteorological readings at the USFS offices) about wet-bulb temperature and even alcohol thermometers (which are preferred over mercury ones for very low temperature use)... the "shut up" came when I raised my hand and asked if the thermometer she was showing us was mercury or alcohol.   I think she said "there is no such thing" before she told me to shut up.   I don't know why she ever called on me, but then one could ask why I ever bothered to raise my hand.   I think I did cut way back on that as the year progressed.
Did your first grade teacher break a ruler on your knuckles for having bad penmanship (age 6) ?   And I didn't even go to Catholic School! Her name was Mrs. Hay and *should have been* a Nun...
- Steve
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

I wonder what would happen if the penalty were based on the offender’s salary and paid directly to the provider. So, let’s say the provider is earning 25 dollars an hour and the offender is earning 100 dollars an hour. So, now the penalty for THAT offender is 100 dollars per hour, or fragment therof. Would the offender still accept this penalty as a price of doing business?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 7:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I don’t know if this embeds within Nick’s thread, but it is a lovely bookend to Marcus’s link:

https://econpapers.repec.org/article/ucpjlstud/v_3a29_3ay_3a2000_3ai_3a1_3ap_3a1-17.htm

Monetization of high-dimensional things, whether positive or negative, is a death knell.

Eric

On Jun 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It’s because we were ruined.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 12:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Well, as an ethologist, I should be the first at that barricade. So thanks for reminding me.

Examining my own experience, I can only say that you are correct that there is direct pleasure in developing an argument, as “tactile” as the pleasure of forming Silly Putty into smooth balls or blowing bubbles with bubblegum. But that pleasure is eliminated IMMEDIATELY and completely, if I imagine that nobody will ever read and understand what I wrote. That’s a paradox, and one I don’t entirely understand.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 1:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick,

I wonder if communicatory behavior is rewarding in its own right just as consummatory behavior is.

Meta:
I don't know if "communicatory" is a word. But I wanted parallel with "consummatory".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: word of the day: "Eschatology"

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

No. A lot of people in new England don’t know about New Mexico, but it is on the “rind” of the country, so hard to draw the outline of the country without encountering it. So, I didn’t miss New Mexico. And it’s not one of the teeny-tiny states, either.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

New Mexico

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 8:34 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

When I was on sabbatical in England and feeling Very homesick, I set about to draw a memory map of the United States. I was really pleased with the result, and showed off with pride to my family. One of my children pointed out to me that I had only 49 states.   Can you guess which one I left out?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

Nick -
One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?
Nah, but my 4th grade teacher drew her own maps on mimeograph. When we were studying Europe, she left out Switzerland.   When she handed out the unmarked maps as homework and asked us to fill in the country names and place/identify their capitals, I noticed she had left out Switzerland!   I raised my hand, waited for her to call on me, then politely (or possibly too eagerly) asked "Where is Switzerland?".   I don't remember what happened next... but she basically told me to "shut up".   I did.   But I did not do *any more* Geography homework (or at least her hand-drawn map) assignments for the rest of the year.
When I flunked (who gets an F in a class in 4th grade?) the class, my parents intervened and made the deal with her that she would pass me if/when I did all the homework that summer.   It grated the hell out of me, but I remember whipping out the whole year of assignments in the first week (or so) because we didn't not do what our parents told us to, even if we sometimes didn't do what our teachers told us to do. I had, after all, paid attention in class and *read the book* as I was as fascinated with geography as anything else...   I held the line on the Europe-sans-Switzerland assignment and my parents acquiesced. I *LIKE* to think that Ms. McCarty was more careful with her maps after I (innocently) asked her about "Switzerland?".
Later she told me to shut up when she was teaching "weather" and my father had just shown me (he took daily meteorological readings at the USFS offices) about wet-bulb temperature and even alcohol thermometers (which are preferred over mercury ones for very low temperature use)... the "shut up" came when I raised my hand and asked if the thermometer she was showing us was mercury or alcohol.   I think she said "there is no such thing" before she told me to shut up.   I don't know why she ever called on me, but then one could ask why I ever bothered to raise my hand.   I think I did cut way back on that as the year progressed.
Did your first grade teacher break a ruler on your knuckles for having bad penmanship (age 6) ?   And I didn't even go to Catholic School! Her name was Mrs. Hay and *should have been* a Nun...
- Steve
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Maps from Memory

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

On 6/6/20 8:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Steve,

When I was on sabbatical in England and feeling Very homesick, I set about to draw a memory map of the United States. I was really pleased with the result, and showed off with pride to my family. One of my children pointed out to me that I had only 49 states.

I was VERY impressed when I saw Al Franken do his: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-FYyuvrRk&list=PL0UW7LoJRk9fFIEVBUq_mX94CYioFkdOL&index=273

the one I saw myself was one he narrated and it took a lot longer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4XtczOvT6c

I'd probably remember them all and maybe even in the right location, but with only a few regions reflecting accurate scales and boundaries. New England and the northern Atlantic Seaboard would suck... the West and Midwest would probably be fine... I think I could *nail* the 4 corners states though!

Can you guess which one I left out?

I'm not good at these guessing games, and without reference to your age/era when you were in England, I'd be winging a tail at a donkey here.

Seems like a "trick question", which becomes my best angle for guessing:

* Switzerland? (doh! not a state!)

* NM? (though a hard one to leave out geometrically).

* AK/HI ? (too obvious)

* MA (nahhhhh...)

* Idaho?

OK... yah got me!

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

Nick -

One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?

Nah, but my 4th grade teacher drew her own maps on mimeograph. When we were studying Europe, she left out Switzerland.   When she handed out the unmarked maps as homework and asked us to fill in the country names and place/identify their capitals, I noticed she had left out Switzerland!   I raised my hand, waited for her to call on me, then politely (or possibly too eagerly) asked "Where is Switzerland?".   I don't remember what happened next... but she basically told me to "shut up".   I did.   But I did not do *any more* Geography homework (or at least her hand-drawn map) assignments for the rest of the year.

When I flunked (who gets an F in a class in 4th grade?) the class, my parents intervened and made the deal with her that she would pass me if/when I did all the homework that summer.   It grated the hell out of me, but I remember whipping out the whole year of assignments in the first week (or so) because we didn't not do what our parents told us to, even if we sometimes didn't do what our teachers told us to do. I had, after all, paid attention in class and *read the book* as I was as fascinated with geography as anything else...   I held the line on the Europe-sans-Switzerland assignment and my parents acquiesced. I *LIKE* to think that Ms. McCarty was more careful with her maps after I (innocently) asked her about "Switzerland?".

Later she told me to shut up when she was teaching "weather" and my father had just shown me (he took daily meteorological readings at the USFS offices) about wet-bulb temperature and even alcohol thermometers (which are preferred over mercury ones for very low temperature use)... the "shut up" came when I raised my hand and asked if the thermometer she was showing us was mercury or alcohol.   I think she said "there is no such thing" before she told me to shut up.   I don't know why she ever called on me, but then one could ask why I ever bothered to raise my hand.   I think I did cut way back on that as the year progressed.

Did your first grade teacher break a ruler on your knuckles for having bad penmanship (age 6) ?   And I didn't even go to Catholic School! Her name was Mrs. Hay and *should have been* a Nun...

- Steve
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

I'm guessing that some people would take "putting a price on it" as removing guilt/shame and replacing it with a "transaction" which even if calibrated to the offender's income is still a "rational transaction" for many.

I wonder what would happen if the penalty were based on the offender’s salary and paid directly to the provider. So, let’s say the provider is earning 25 dollars an hour and the offender is earning 100 dollars an hour. So, now the penalty for THAT offender is 100 dollars per hour, or fragment therof. Would the offender still accept this penalty as a price of doing business?

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 7:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

I don’t know if this embeds within Nick’s thread, but it is a lovely bookend to Marcus’s link:

https://econpapers.repec.org/article/ucpjlstud/v_3a29_3ay_3a2000_3ai_3a1_3ap_3a1-17.htm

Monetization of high-dimensional things, whether positive or negative, is a death knell.

Eric

On Jun 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It’s because we were ruined.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 12:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Well, as an ethologist, I should be the first at that barricade. So thanks for reminding me.

Examining my own experience, I can only say that you are correct that there is direct pleasure in developing an argument, as “tactile” as the pleasure of forming Silly Putty into smooth balls or blowing bubbles with bubblegum. But that pleasure is eliminated IMMEDIATELY and completely, if I imagine that nobody will ever read and understand what I wrote. That’s a paradox, and one I don’t entirely understand.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 1:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick,

I wonder if communicatory behavior is rewarding in its own right just as consummatory behavior is.

Meta:

I don't know if "communicatory" is a word. But I wanted parallel with "consummatory".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 12:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

We may disagree. I think that some spaces should be safe for some purposes. The question to be discussed, on a case by case basis, is, Are the functions of a space improved or diminished by making it “safe” in some specific way. But there’s another point, here. Assuming one is trying to convince others, not just mouthing off, when does aggressive rhetoric assist in changing minds. And if one is NOT trying to change minds, why exactly are we talking? That’s NOT a rhetorical question.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Nick writes:

< Surely there is SOME value, SOME times, in just trying to “get on”. >

I don’t see why the absence of that is hostility, or even bad. I do see situations in which individuals want latitude to have any remarks they make taken as valid and kind should be afforded the same discomfort they impose on others. I certainly am not arguing for safe spaces. Actual safe spaces are controlled by people that hold some power. Tear down that power – prevent communities -- and discussions will be safe.

Marcus

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gepr

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.

The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.

So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.

On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).
>
> I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*. So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here? Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)? Mental Masturbation? Dominance Aggression? Random Neuromuscular Spasms?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.

Well corrected... thanks.

The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.

I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys. When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper. And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.

So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.

Touche' !

What about "dancing"? My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting. Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords). Neither felt choreographed.

Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.

I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.

SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):

“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”

SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this... the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.

- Steve


On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).

I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.

You’re on your own, buddy.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.

Well corrected... thanks.

The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.

So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.

Touche' !

Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.

I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.

SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):
“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”
SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this... the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.

- Steve

On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).

I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: millenarianism

"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."

That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner life.

Frank

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.

You’re on your own, buddy.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.
Well corrected... thanks.
The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.
I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys. When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper. And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.
So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.
Touche' !
What about "dancing"? My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting. Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords). Neither felt choreographed.
Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.
I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.
SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):
“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”
SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this...   the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.
- Steve
 
 
On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).
 
I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?
 
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

George Duncan-2

Re: Maps from Memory

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

At a political gathering here in Santa Fe, I saw Al Franken do his drawing of the 50 states, all the while responding to political questions. Impressive feat. He then auctioned it off to raise money for the DSCC. As I recall it went for $3500 to Bob Odenkirk, Sol of Better Call Sol.

Here's my guess...Delaware.

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

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My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 9:38 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 6/6/20 8:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Steve,

When I was on sabbatical in England and feeling Very homesick, I set about to draw a memory map of the United States. I was really pleased with the result, and showed off with pride to my family. One of my children pointed out to me that I had only 49 states.

I was VERY impressed when I saw Al Franken do his: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-FYyuvrRk&list=PL0UW7LoJRk9fFIEVBUq_mX94CYioFkdOL&index=273

the one I saw myself was one he narrated and it took a lot longer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4XtczOvT6c

I'd probably remember them all and maybe even in the right location, but with only a few regions reflecting accurate scales and boundaries.    New England and the northern Atlantic Seaboard would suck... the West and Midwest would probably be fine... I think I could *nail* the 4 corners states though!

Can you guess which one I left out?

I'm not good at these guessing games, and without reference to your age/era when you were in England, I'd be winging a tail at a donkey here.

Seems like a "trick question", which becomes my best angle for guessing:
    * Switzerland? (doh! not a state!)

    * NM?   (though a hard one to leave out geometrically).

    * AK/HI ?   (too obvious)

    * MA (nahhhhh...)

    * Idaho?

OK... yah got me!
N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] word of the day: "Eschatology"

Nick -

One day, during geography, I raised my hand and said, “How come north/south America and Europe/Africa sort of fit together?” General merriment on all sides, including the teacher’s.

Did she do that to YOU, also?

Nah, but my 4th grade teacher drew her own maps on mimeograph. When we were studying Europe, she left out Switzerland.   When she handed out the unmarked maps as homework and asked us to fill in the country names and place/identify their capitals, I noticed she had left out Switzerland!   I raised my hand, waited for her to call on me, then politely (or possibly too eagerly) asked "Where is Switzerland?".   I don't remember what happened next... but she basically told me to "shut up".   I did.   But I did not do *any more* Geography homework (or at least her hand-drawn map) assignments for the rest of the year.

When I flunked (who gets an F in a class in 4th grade?) the class, my parents intervened and made the deal with her that she would pass me if/when I did all the homework that summer.   It grated the hell out of me, but I remember whipping out the whole year of assignments in the first week (or so) because we didn't not do what our parents told us to, even if we sometimes didn't do what our teachers told us to do. I had, after all, paid attention in class and *read the book* as I was as fascinated with geography as anything else...   I held the line on the Europe-sans-Switzerland assignment and my parents acquiesced. I *LIKE* to think that Ms. McCarty was more careful with her maps after I (innocently) asked her about "Switzerland?".

Later she told me to shut up when she was teaching "weather" and my father had just shown me (he took daily meteorological readings at the USFS offices) about wet-bulb temperature and even alcohol thermometers (which are preferred over mercury ones for very low temperature use)... the "shut up" came when I raised my hand and asked if the thermometer she was showing us was mercury or alcohol.   I think she said "there is no such thing" before she told me to shut up.   I don't know why she ever called on me, but then one could ask why I ever bothered to raise my hand.   I think I did cut way back on that as the year progressed.

Did your first grade teacher break a ruler on your knuckles for having bad penmanship (age 6) ?   And I didn't even go to Catholic School! Her name was Mrs. Hay and *should have been* a Nun...

- Steve
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Russ Abbott

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Thanks, Frank. I agree completely. This is a long-standing issue with Nick. I'm glad you point out the similarities.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:04 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."

That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner life.

Frank
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.

You’re on your own, buddy.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.
Well corrected... thanks.
The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.
I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys. When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper. And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.
So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.
Touche' !
What about "dancing"? My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting. Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords). Neither felt choreographed.
Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.
I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.
SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):
“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”
SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this...   the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.
- Steve
 
 
On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).
 
I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?
 
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--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
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jon zingale

Re: millenarianism

I sometimes wonder if this is how early arguments about gravity developed.
Of course, I could probably go read a book on the historical development of
gravity, but I somehow prefer to fantasize. Perhaps some philosophers would
argue that if Steve were to suddenly disappear, Nick would continue to flap
his gums. Action at a distance would be an illusion. In the meantime, others
would argue that the relations between one's gums flapping and another's
horror presenting is communication, and that it exists. Ah, musing.

Jon

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jon zingale

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Stephen,

Thanks for encouraging me to drop down a Wikipedia hole.
Somehow I was interested in this data found on the Drone Strikes in Pakistan page:

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates the following cumulative statistics about U.S. drone strikes (as of 17 September 2017):^[20]

Total strikes: 429
Total killed: 2,514 – 4,023
Civilians killed: 424 – 969
Children killed: 172 – 207
Injured: 1,162 – 1,749
Strikes under the Bush Administration: 51
Strikes under the Obama Administration: 373
Strikes under the Trump Administration: 5
84 of the 2,379 dead have been identified as members of al-Qaeda^[60]

A formerly classified Pakistani government report obtained in July 2013 by the BIJ shows details of 75 drone strikes that occurred between 2006–09. According to the 12-page report, in this period, 176 of the 746 reported dead were civilians.^[61] According to the Long War Journal, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, and the New America Foundation, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 had some of the highest civilian casualty ratios of any years.

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: millenarianism

"The evolution will be live streamed" ?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 11:50 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stephen,

Thanks for encouraging me to drop down a Wikipedia hole.
Somehow I was interested in this data found on the Drone Strikes in Pakistan page:

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates the following cumulative statistics about U.S. drone strikes (as of 17 September 2017):^[20]
Total strikes: 429
Total killed: 2,514 – 4,023
Civilians killed: 424 – 969
Children killed: 172 – 207
Injured: 1,162 – 1,749
Strikes under the Bush Administration: 51
Strikes under the Obama Administration: 373
Strikes under the Trump Administration: 5
84 of the 2,379 dead have been identified as members of al-Qaeda^[60]
A formerly classified Pakistani government report obtained in July 2013 by the BIJ shows details of 75 drone strikes that occurred between 2006–09. According to the 12-page report, in this period, 176 of the 746 reported dead were civilians.^[61] According to the Long War Journal, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, and the New America Foundation, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 had some of the highest civilian casualty ratios of any years.
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by jon zingale

How does one weight these 4k deaths against the 66k which are attributed to Trump’s inaction on COVID-19?

Stalin’s insight suggests it is better to go big, then be surgical: “A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.”

If some bad thing is going to happen, make it big and nebulous enough that people can’t reason about it..

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Jon Zingale <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 10:50 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Stephen,

Thanks for encouraging me to drop down a Wikipedia hole.
Somehow I was interested in this data found on the Drone Strikes in Pakistan page:

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates the following cumulative statistics about U.S. drone strikes (as of 17 September 2017):^[20]

· Total strikes: 429

· Total killed: 2,514 – 4,023

· Civilians killed: 424 – 969

· Children killed: 172 – 207

· Injured: 1,162 – 1,749

· Strikes under the Bush Administration: 51

· Strikes under the Obama Administration: 373

· Strikes under the Trump Administration: 5

· 84 of the 2,379 dead have been identified as members of al-Qaeda^[60]

Steve Smith

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.

You’re on your own, buddy.

I can't hear you... it's nothing but "flapping of gums and gnashing of teeth out there!"

- Steve

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Frank, Russ,

I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat. I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it. It’s an empirical assertion, and it’s wrong. With “innerness of consciousness” assertion, understood as it is usually understood and not as The Steelman understands it, the problem is logical. It’s internally inconsistent. (You’ll pardon the expression. )

My belief is NOT that my monist position on consciousness is complete and totally satisfying. In fact there are many conversations in which I engage in dualistic talk, such as, for instance, conversations about “voice” in writing, etc. My belief is only that a monist position leads one to encounter fewer contradictions than a dualist one. Frank, and perhaps Russ, also, have held that the contradictions encountered by my monism (behaviorism, what-have-you) are so central, so essential, to their understanding of humans that they regard the position as a nonstarter.

But all of this is small change in comparison with the question of whether I have the power to direct my own mind, to decide what to think. I don’t think a monist (like I am trying to be) can entertain that possibility. Now, of course, all organisms make decision, so it is not the fact of decision-making that is challenging to monism. Nor is the illusion of an I-that-decides all that challenging to explain. What a monist must never admit, on my account is that it is the [I-that-decides] that actually decides. I think that is the nub of where we have disagreed over the years.

Thank you both for continually keeping me honest.

All the best,

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Thanks, Frank. I agree completely. This is a long-standing issue with Nick. I'm glad you point out the similarities.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:04 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."

That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner life.

Frank
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.

You’re on your own, buddy.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.
Well corrected... thanks.
The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.
I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys. When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper. And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.
So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.
Touche' !
What about "dancing"? My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting. Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords). Neither felt choreographed.
Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.
I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.
SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):
“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”
SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this...   the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.
- Steve
 
 
On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).
 
I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?
 
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--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
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Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Hi Stephen,

Was this somehow surprising to you? Why were you interested in seeing this data?

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:50 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stephen,

Thanks for encouraging me to drop down a Wikipedia hole.
Somehow I was interested in this data found on the Drone Strikes in Pakistan page:

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates the following cumulative statistics about U.S. drone strikes (as of 17 September 2017):^[20]
Total strikes: 429
Total killed: 2,514 – 4,023
Civilians killed: 424 – 969
Children killed: 172 – 207
Injured: 1,162 – 1,749
Strikes under the Bush Administration: 51
Strikes under the Obama Administration: 373
Strikes under the Trump Administration: 5
84 of the 2,379 dead have been identified as members of al-Qaeda^[60]
A formerly classified Pakistani government report obtained in July 2013 by the BIJ shows details of 75 drone strikes that occurred between 2006–09. According to the 12-page report, in this period, 176 of the 746 reported dead were civilians.^[61] According to the Long War Journal, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, and the New America Foundation, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 had some of the highest civilian casualty ratios of any years.
- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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