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millenarianism

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: millenarianism

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Concept or Feeling

Flapping Lips

Ear

Similar (it is hoped) concept or Feeling

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---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 12:37 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank, Russ,

I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat. I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it. It’s an empirical assertion, and it’s wrong. With “innerness of consciousness” assertion, understood as it is usually understood and not as The Steelman understands it, the problem is logical. It’s internally inconsistent. (You’ll pardon the expression. )

My belief is NOT that my monist position on consciousness is complete and totally satisfying. In fact there are many conversations in which I engage in dualistic talk, such as, for instance, conversations about “voice” in writing, etc. My belief is only that a monist position leads one to encounter fewer contradictions than a dualist one. Frank, and perhaps Russ, also, have held that the contradictions encountered by my monism (behaviorism, what-have-you) are so central, so essential, to their understanding of humans that they regard the position as a nonstarter.

But all of this is small change in comparison with the question of whether I have the power to direct my own mind, to decide what to think. I don’t think a monist (like I am trying to be) can entertain that possibility. Now, of course, all organisms make decision, so it is not the fact of decision-making that is challenging to monism. Nor is the illusion of an I-that-decides all that challenging to explain. What a monist must never admit, on my account is that it is the [I-that-decides] that actually decides. I think that is the nub of where we have disagreed over the years.

Thank you both for continually keeping me honest.

All the best,

Nick

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Thanks, Frank. I agree completely. This is a long-standing issue with Nick. I'm glad you point out the similarities.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:04 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."

That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner life.

Frank
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.

You’re on your own, buddy.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.
Well corrected... thanks.
The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.
I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys. When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper. And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.
So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.
Touche' !
What about "dancing"? My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting. Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords). Neither felt choreographed.
Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.
I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.
SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):
“All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”
SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this...   the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.
- Steve
 
 
On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).
 
I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?
 
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--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
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Stephen Guerin-5

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 12:47 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Was this somehow surprising to you? Why were you interested in seeing this data?

The context was about flipping the players in a narrative to make a point - This was elated to DaveW quoting the Nacerima Technique in Anthro education. You can see the original context here.

gepr

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Well-said. My guess is that Nick can find falsifying evidence of his strawman rendering of the position. But I sincerely doubt he can falsify his steelman of it, were he to be so gracious as to form a steelman.

On 6/7/20 12:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> Speaker End
>
> Concept or Feeling
> |
> Flapping Lips
> |
> Ear
> |
> Similar (it is hoped) concept or Feeling
>
> Listener End
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 12:37 PM <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat. I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: millenarianism

What Nick will say is that the lip flapping is the concept or the feeling.to which I say "So you didn't feel or think them before you spoke? BS and you know it."

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 3:44 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well-said. My guess is that Nick can find falsifying evidence of his strawman rendering of the position. But I sincerely doubt he can falsify his steelman of it, were he to be so gracious as to form a steelman.

On 6/7/20 12:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Speaker End
>
> Concept or Feeling
> |
> Flapping Lips
> |
> Ear
> |
> Similar (it is hoped) concept or Feeling
>
> Listener End
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 12:37 PM <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat. I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it.
--
☣ uǝlƃ

.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: millenarianism

It often seemed like George W. Bush would start talking before he decided where he really wanted to go. Sometimes he would recover and sometimes he would not. I know when I’m put on the spot, like on a video conference, it seems to me like there’s a wave moving forward and the goal is just to put the banal or non-controversial stuff in the front of the wave and save time to prioritize or guard or qualify the rest in real time. The coding is a separate process from the real time editing.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 2:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

What Nick will say is that the lip flapping is the concept or the feeling.to which I say "So you didn't feel or think them before you spoke? BS and you know it."

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 3:44 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well-said. My guess is that Nick can find falsifying evidence of his strawman rendering of the position. But I sincerely doubt he can falsify his steelman of it, were he to be so gracious as to form a steelman.

On 6/7/20 12:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Speaker End
>
> Concept or Feeling
> |
> Flapping Lips
> |
> Ear
> |
> Similar (it is hoped) concept or Feeling
>
> Listener End
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 12:37 PM <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat. I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it.
--
☣ uǝlƃ

.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

thompnickson2

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

C’mon, guys. Nick will only say that talk– even of the most vacant kind -- has effects that flapping the gums does not. Please let’s not make me stupider than I already am.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

What Nick will say is that the lip flapping is the concept or the feeling.to which I say "So you didn't feel or think them before you spoke? BS and you know it."

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 3:44 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well-said. My guess is that Nick can find falsifying evidence of his strawman rendering of the position. But I sincerely doubt he can falsify his steelman of it, were he to be so gracious as to form a steelman.

On 6/7/20 12:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> Speaker End
>
> Concept or Feeling
> |
> Flapping Lips
> |
> Ear
> |
> Similar (it is hoped) concept or Feeling
>
> Listener End
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 12:37 PM <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat. I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it.
--
☣ uǝlƃ

.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

gepr

Re: millenarianism

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

What's interesting to me is the extent to which one *simulates* actual talking when sitting quietly formulating thoughts. It's often less about *what* you want to say and more about how you want to say it to this audience. When Bob and I are talking, it feels like I have little simulations running inside me like Could I say it this way? Could I say it that way? Will that work with Bob? Etc. [†]

And if I'm right that I'm *simulating* talking as I prepare to talk, then the only distinguishable difference is which motor functions are engaged when simulating vs actually talking. (Note I'm not suggesting all internal dynamics are equivalent to talking. Only that the difference between thinking "I have a cat" and saying "I have a cat" is vanishingly small, or at least not as large/distinct most people think it is.)

[†] This is one of the reasons people who never pause to let others think and simply fill all the silence with jabber irritate me. Give me a little time to run some simulations, here!

On 6/7/20 2:55 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It often seemed like George W. Bush would start talking before he decided where he really wanted to go. Sometimes he would recover and sometimes he would not. I know when I’m put on the spot, like on a video conference, it seems to me like there’s a wave moving forward and the goal is just to put the banal or non-controversial stuff in the front of the wave and save time to prioritize or guard or qualify the rest in real time. The coding is a separate process from the real time editing.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

1234