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Santa Fe Plaza Riot

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Steve Smith

Santa Fe Plaza Riot

Looks like the Santa Fe Police and Plaza shop owners got punked:

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/threat-of-riots-on-plaza-sparks-police-response/article_a318da30-a525-11ea-90b5-b38b80513d11.html

Shows how isolated we are here from the broader unrest...

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jon zingale

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

Steve,

I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
isolation from the broader unrest is a sign of maturity within our social
discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure

across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,

and to behave as if the discourse is everywhere the same. Doing so in

many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

Jon

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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

We were punked, too:

Fake news flyer targets Thurston County political organization
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243215486.html

I can't help but wonder if the inclusion of Soros indicates whoever
made the flyer was purposefully joking. Or if it indicates that
whoever made the flyer really believes the conspiracy theories about
Soros. What's that "law"? Oh yeah Poe's Law
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law>.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:59 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Looks like the Santa Fe Police and Plaza shop owners got punked:
> https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/threat-of-riots-on-plaza-sparks-police-response/article_a318da30-a525-11ea-90b5-b38b80513d11.html
> Shows how isolated we are here from the broader unrest...

--
=><= Hail Eris!

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:

> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

I'm so out of the loop of Internet/Urban culture (despite decades
embedded within the former) that I truly appreciate that others here
(such as you Glen) have your finger on the pulse as well as you do.

Poe's Law is very helpful.   I think *many* people (even here) can't
accept that their sarcasm or parody might literally not be recognizeable
by others.   I wonder where this fits in the in-group/out-group
dileniation?   Dog-whistles seem to be the converse of this?

> We were punked, too:
>
> Fake news flyer targets Thurston County political organization
> https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243215486.html
>
> I can't help but wonder if the inclusion of Soros indicates whoever
> made the flyer was purposefully joking. Or if it indicates that
> whoever made the flyer really believes the conspiracy theories about
> Soros. What's that "law"? Oh yeah Poe's Law
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law>.
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:59 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Looks like the Santa Fe Police and Plaza shop owners got punked:
>> https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/threat-of-riots-on-plaza-sparks-police-response/article_a318da30-a525-11ea-90b5-b38b80513d11.html
>> Shows how isolated we are here from the broader unrest...

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

Something like Elysium or outposts on the Moon, Mars, etc. may recover pockets of autonomy. Now that launch is getting cheap and it has been demonstrated with human crews.

On 6/3/20, 8:47 AM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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jon zingale

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Glen,

Ha! That's pretty good. Yes, I do use a Gmail email client, in-part
because I haven't yet figured out registering on the list-server.
I suspect there are natural limits to humans becoming some-kind-of
homogenous biofilm, and that it is in some ways evidenced by the
differences found internally here as-well-as in the differences
I find between northern New Mexico and Olympia Washington, say.
Also, it doesn't particularly seem an affluence thing. Protest and
discourse around race and culture are baked into the Santa Fe
scene. You can ask people about Onate or the various pueblo revolts
and get an informed perspective, not because of affluent privilege,
but because it is culturally important to the people here. I contrast
this with where I was raised in Ohio. It wasn't until recently when
I read Blood Meridian that I had ever heard mention of the Gnadenhutten
massacre. OTOH, I had friends who witnessed the Kent State shootings,
friends who blame the police for the death of D.A Levy, and who keep
count of the number of times the Cuyahoga River caught fire. From my
perspective, it takes a lot of energy and resources to force life into
a state of homogeneity. My bets are on continued cultural diversification,
on into the future.

Jon

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

I was going to remark about your breaking the thread too. If that's what it is. Do you select "delete previous messages" when you reply?

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Jon writes:

< From my perspective, it takes a lot of energy and resources to force life into
a state of homogeneity. My bets are on continued cultural diversification,
on into the future. >

The stock market has been mostly unaffected by all of this. After the outrage over George Floyd passes, and the protest and looting slows, will it really change voter turnout? A catharsis was had, and no doubt there will be periodic catharses going forward. Poor treatment of angry minorities can be rationalized as a necessary remedy to those that get in the way of commerce (just as letting people get sick from COVID-19 is). It’s easy to talk about revolution, and but developing a strategy and organizations to realize change takes time and space to plan. It didn’t work particularly well to delegate the revolution to someone like Bernie Sanders. Sure there may be cultural diversification, but if those subcultures have no sustained power, how can it be enduring?

When I walk my dogs at night I walk by house after house and can see the same programs on their televisions. How can this not be making them similar?

Marcus

gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Hm. But the reply button is right there in the upper right corner. Do you purposefully avoid using it? If so, why?

I completely agree with you re: continued cultural diversification. But I disagree with you about any such limits. I can maintain agreement in one case and disagreement in the other because cultural diversification is (almost purely?) a function of context and scale. There's still diversity in biofilms.

On 6/3/20 9:11 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> Yes, I do use a Gmail email client, in-part
> because I haven't yet figured out registering on the list-server.
> I suspect there are natural limits to humans becoming some-kind-of
> homogenous biofilm, [...] My bets are on continued cultural diversification,
> on into the future.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

Biofilm, huh? I think you may be on to something.

Returning a long-overdue book to the downtown Santa Fe library last evening, I took a walk thorough the plaza to see how our "phase two" was coming along. There were about 40 police strolling about--with only a few pedestrians, locals all wearing masks, and a few unfortunate tourists (not wearing masks, evidently not needed in the biofilm). There had been a rumor of a demonstration which had not materialized. So the officers were enjoying the evening "break", as they told me.

I can't sleep at night worrying about how we're going to keep peace in the valley in the near future as the quickening collapse of our systems becomes logarithmic. Many big-city police are recruited based on former military service. Also, many who get a high from dealing with violence are attracted to policing. The recruits are then trained as warriors, not peacekeepers, today even dressed for duty on the "front lines". Beyond the systemic context of racism, poverty, etc. etc., the elected city mothers and fathers who theoretically "control" local law enforcement either don't give a damn, or they're scared of the very powerful police unions.

I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.

https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

jon zingale

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Marcus,

Your comment about televisions is part of my point about

resources and energy. I see the massive institutions and

structures that are in place to bring me globally syndicated

programming as being expensive and doing what it can

to constrain difference. Yet, places strike me as being

remarkably different. I don't really see the outrage around

Floyd as being a reliable sign for cultural differences as the

outrage strikes me as a kind of media event. Voter turn-out,

similarly, seems to rely on nation and imagined communities.

Jon

gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

Excellent cite! Renee' and I had a discussion about the cops joining the protesters (or taking a knee, or hugging people, or whatever). She bought the line the TV People were hawking that this was a sign that the police are people too and it's just a few bad apples ... yadda yadda. I objected and claimed these lip service gestures provide COVER for the inaction of the legislators and upper law enforcement (DAs, Governors, President, etc.) in making the changes that are required to actually fix things.

So, were I the type to protest, and a cop tried to hug me, I'd probably punch her. Those hugs and kneels and speeches about love and inclusion are garbage, second, and excuses to avoid real action, first.

On 6/3/20 9:48 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.
>
> https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Actually the phraseology that the Gmail client uses is "Delete quoted text".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:55 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

Your comment about televisions is part of my point about
resources and energy. I see the massive institutions and
structures that are in place to bring me globally syndicated
programming as being expensive and doing what it can
to constrain difference. Yet, places strike me as being
remarkably different. I don't really see the outrage around
Floyd as being a reliable sign for cultural differences as the
outrage strikes me as a kind of media event. Voter turn-out,
similarly, seems to rely on nation and imagined communities.

Jon
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Tom Johnson

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Jon wrote:

"Yet, places strike me as being

remarkably different."

I think what we are seeing, somewhat, is a global reaction to Authoritarianism, which has basically the same attributes from the US to the UK to Hungary, India, the Philippines, China and Brazil.

Tom

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:55 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

Your comment about televisions is part of my point about
resources and energy. I see the massive institutions and
structures that are in place to bring me globally syndicated
programming as being expensive and doing what it can
to constrain difference. Yet, places strike me as being
remarkably different. I don't really see the outrage around
Floyd as being a reliable sign for cultural differences as the
outrage strikes me as a kind of media event. Voter turn-out,
similarly, seems to rely on nation and imagined communities.

Jon
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

I don't have any data to support this claim. But I suspect using the Reply button, then also using "Delete quoted text" would *still* add "References:" entries to the header, allowing Gmail to track "conversations" and normal email clients to track threads. FWIW, here's your References entry for the post quoted below:

References: <[hidden email]>

If you "View Source" or "Show Original" on Jon's posts, there are no such entries. Also, I think "Delete quoted text" is a feature on an obsolete version of Gmail's web client, though I could easily be wrong about that since I don't use it.

On 6/3/20 9:58 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Actually the phraseology that the Gmail client uses is "Delete quoted text".

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I also thank Glen for the pointer to Poe's Law, of which I was indeed unaware. And believe me, there are *plenty* of people who take conspiracy theories against Soros seriously. Just as there are plenty who believe the same about the Koch brothers (I'm more toward that camp).

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 10:48 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm so out of the loop of Internet/Urban culture (despite decades
embedded within the former) that I truly appreciate that others here
(such as you Glen) have your finger on the pulse as well as you do.

Poe's Law is very helpful.   I think *many* people (even here) can't
accept that their sarcasm or parody might literally not be recognizeable
by others.   I wonder where this fits in the in-group/out-group
dileniation?   Dog-whistles seem to be the converse of this?

> We were punked, too:
>
> Fake news flyer targets Thurston County political organization
> https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243215486.html
>
> I can't help but wonder if the inclusion of Soros indicates whoever
> made the flyer was purposefully joking. Or if it indicates that
> whoever made the flyer really believes the conspiracy theories about
> Soros. What's that "law"? Oh yeah Poe's Law
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law>.
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:59 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Looks like the Santa Fe Police and Plaza shop owners got punked:
>> https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/threat-of-riots-on-plaza-sparks-police-response/article_a318da30-a525-11ea-90b5-b38b80513d11.html
>> Shows how isolated we are here from the broader unrest...

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jon zingale

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen,

I finally set up my subscription and this is an attempt to reply.

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Jon

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Barry MacKichan

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

A lot of the protests are peaceful. If so, perhaps one should set up a table for voter registrations.

On 3 Jun 2020, at 8:59, Steve Smith wrote:

Looks like the Santa Fe Police and Plaza shop owners got punked:

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/threat-of-riots-on-plaza-sparks-police-response/article_a318da30-a525-11ea-90b5-b38b80513d11.html

Shows how isolated we are here from the broader unrest...

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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Yay! Thunderbird no longer treats you as an outcast! 8^D

On 6/3/20 11:18 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I finally set up my subscription and this is an attempt to reply.
>
> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/hang_in_there.jpeg>

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

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