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Santa Fe Plaza Riot

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thompnickson2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

Isn’t this perhaps one of those Russian bot things?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 12:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe Plaza Riot

A lot of the protests are peaceful. If so, perhaps one should set up a table for voter registrations.

On 3 Jun 2020, at 8:59, Steve Smith wrote:

Looks like the Santa Fe Police and Plaza shop owners got punked:

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/threat-of-riots-on-plaza-sparks-police-response/article_a318da30-a525-11ea-90b5-b38b80513d11.html

Shows how isolated we are here from the broader unrest...

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Steve Smith

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

... also piling on Jon <grin>... this might also explain why Jon's mail
bodies all seem to come through in a non-standard (and tiny) font?

On 6/3/20 11:35 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
> I don't have any data to support this claim. But I suspect using the Reply button, then also using "Delete quoted text" would *still* add "References:" entries to the header, allowing Gmail to track "conversations" and normal email clients to track threads. FWIW, here's your References entry for the post quoted below:
>
> References: <[hidden email]>
>
> If you "View Source" or "Show Original" on Jon's posts, there are no such entries. Also, I think "Delete quoted text" is a feature on an obsolete version of Gmail's web client, though I could easily be wrong about that since I don't use it.
>
> On 6/3/20 9:58 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> Actually the phraseology that the Gmail client uses is "Delete quoted text".
>

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

Does it make me a sociopath for me to hope big cities *do* collapse and become a thing of the past? People who know me well understand when I say I like persons, but not people, which is to say that while I treasure individual friendships and relationships, I at best tolerate crowds. I think we have not evolved the psychological mechanisms to live together in great concentrations. Our advanced civilization is much too young to qualify as having stood the test of time, a few measly tens of thousands of years is such a small blip in time compared to the time life has existed on our planet. I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. But then, I could be absolutely, completely, wrong about all this, and instead just be a sociopath. I hope not.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 11:48 AM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Biofilm, huh? I think you may be on to something.

Returning a long-overdue book to the downtown Santa Fe library last evening, I took a walk thorough the plaza to see how our "phase two" was coming along. There were about 40 police strolling about--with only a few pedestrians, locals all wearing masks, and a few unfortunate tourists (not wearing masks, evidently not needed in the biofilm). There had been a rumor of a demonstration which had not materialized. So the officers were enjoying the evening "break", as they told me.

I can't sleep at night worrying about how we're going to keep peace in the valley in the near future as the quickening collapse of our systems becomes logarithmic. Many big-city police are recruited based on former military service. Also, many who get a high from dealing with violence are attracted to policing. The recruits are then trained as warriors, not peacekeepers, today even dressed for duty on the "front lines". Beyond the systemic context of racism, poverty, etc. etc., the elected city mothers and fathers who theoretically "control" local law enforcement either don't give a damn, or they're scared of the very powerful police unions.

I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.

https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I doubt it. I think the odd text is a result of either their sending in HTML/MIME or your client's rendering of it. Sometimes, Marcus' Outlook posts render funny. But I use "View Message Body" as "Simple HTML". So, I expect some funny renderings.

And we're not piling on Jon ... I'm blatantly USING him as a robust foil, who won't be offended by the abuse, in order to push the idea that some one of us whose name will be left out to avoid persecution might be able to use the extant technology to draw out threads for collation and publication. >8^D

On 6/3/20 11:41 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> ... also piling on Jon <grin>... this might also explain why Jon's mail
> bodies all seem to come through in a non-standard (and tiny) font?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

The part you got wrong, Gary, was the last part. There will no doubt be fewer of us soon--many fewer according to the best estimates-- and perhaps we will survive on the planet living in small communities, growing and storing food, enjoying a local shared economy, and trying to flourish. But until we deeply acknowledge how hard we try to hang onto some version of our present material privileges (AI and robotics as the new slaves), we doom our species, along with our sister and brother species who help us survive.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Does it make me a sociopath for me to hope big cities *do* collapse and become a thing of the past? People who know me well understand when I say I like persons, but not people, which is to say that while I treasure individual friendships and relationships, I at best tolerate crowds. I think we have not evolved the psychological mechanisms to live together in great concentrations. Our advanced civilization is much too young to qualify as having stood the test of time, a few measly tens of thousands of years is such a small blip in time compared to the time life has existed on our planet. I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. But then, I could be absolutely, completely, wrong about all this, and instead just be a sociopath. I hope not.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 11:48 AM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Biofilm, huh? I think you may be on to something.

Returning a long-overdue book to the downtown Santa Fe library last evening, I took a walk thorough the plaza to see how our "phase two" was coming along. There were about 40 police strolling about--with only a few pedestrians, locals all wearing masks, and a few unfortunate tourists (not wearing masks, evidently not needed in the biofilm). There had been a rumor of a demonstration which had not materialized. So the officers were enjoying the evening "break", as they told me.

I can't sleep at night worrying about how we're going to keep peace in the valley in the near future as the quickening collapse of our systems becomes logarithmic. Many big-city police are recruited based on former military service. Also, many who get a high from dealing with violence are attracted to policing. The recruits are then trained as warriors, not peacekeepers, today even dressed for duty on the "front lines". Beyond the systemic context of racism, poverty, etc. etc., the elected city mothers and fathers who theoretically "control" local law enforcement either don't give a damn, or they're scared of the very powerful police unions.

I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.

https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Yeah, I basically agree. But this takes us back to the discussion of *where* the memory/logic/data is stored. That painful-waste-of-my-time Weinstein podcast talked explicitly about how evolution might happen much faster than we think. And we know that cultural evolution (should use scare quotes, but meh) can happen even faster than biological evolution.

I've argued emphatically (even if I don't quite believe it) that the human organism's repertoire is so plastic that it's impossible to characterize the long-term trends of socially emergent phenomena. There can be no master equation ... no coherent psychohistory <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)>.

Regardless, I'm in your camp. My meatspace friends even call me a misanthrope, which is not at all true ... but very truthy. I ran across this article the other day:

The power of crowds
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/jun/02/the-power-of-crowds

I honestly cannot relate to any of it. The feeling I get when "crushed" either just my ears in a huge chorus or crushed physically in, say, a sweaty dance club is the same. I get this anxious overwhelming feeling of dread. I used to be able to drink heavily to suppress it. But that's not a good solution.

On 6/3/20 11:44 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> Does it make me a sociopath for me to hope big cities *do* collapse and become a thing of the past? People who know me well understand when I say I like persons, but not people, which is to say that while I treasure individual friendships and relationships, I at best tolerate crowds. I think we have not evolved the psychological mechanisms to live together in great concentrations. Our advanced civilization is much too young to qualify as having stood the test of time, a few measly tens of thousands of years is such a small blip in time compared to the time life has existed on our planet. I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. But then, I could be absolutely, completely, wrong about all this, and instead just be a sociopath. I hope not.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Gary writes:

< I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. >

I think the Earth would be better off without any people, and that the AIs should assimilate what is needed and then incrementally slow reproduction of humans, at least on this planet.

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

See Larding below.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2020 12:51 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe Plaza Riot

And we're not piling on Jon ... I'm blatantly USING him as a robust foil, who won't be offended by the abuse, in order to push the idea that some one of us whose name will be left out to avoid persecution might be able to use the extant technology to draw out threads for collation and publication. >8^D

[NST===> I hear you callin’ glen, but I genuinely don’t know how to respond. If you have ways that we might organize our conversations so they made more sense, and you are willing to give expert-to-citizen instructions, I promise to try them. In the meantime, you couldn’t, by any chance, speaking of Ludditry, be seduced into using HTML?<===nst]

On 6/3/20 11:41 AM, Steve Smith wrote:

> ... also piling on Jon <grin>... this might also explain why Jon's

> mail bodies all seem to come through in a non-standard (and tiny) font?

☣ uǝlƃ

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Steve Smith

Homo Hiveus or Bio Slime?

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Gary -

I do think your characterization if taken literally has a tinge of the sociopath in it... but I have similar instincts and offer this complementary? perspective:

I used to worry (a lot more) about what I called Homo Hiveus, an evolution (via social not genetic mechanisms) of our tribal species to a eusocial one. It sounded like a purely miserable way of life, etc., yadda yadda. I was a budding pseudo-liberatarian.

I credit Glen somewhat for harping against hyper-individuality (on and offlist) with me enough to get my attention, if not to completely straighten me out. I am not tuned or calibrated for crowds personally and I therefore ignore/avoid them... however that does not mean I don't believe that we either A) CAN become a better version of ourselves by giving over to a more collective way of being; or B) WILL move toward the biofilm Glen suggests whether that represents a "better" version of ourselves (by what measure?).

My instincts/embedded values weigh in: 1) I don't want to give up/lose my personal identity (ego) and/or agency to a collective; and 2) I don't want to see my species over-run the planet (any more than we have, and surely less) and exclude (most) other life-forms in the process.

I became interested in the futurist Paolo Soleri's Arcologies (Architected Ecologies) when he was building his first (and only) example in central AZ while I was in college in Northern AZ (1970s). Through having done some laser scans of the Paolo Soleri Amphitheater I became more intimate with his staff at Arcosanti and have visited a few times. One articulation of his vision for "Arcologies" is to build (I'm getting the numbers wrong I think but you can appreciate teh spirit) 1 square mile Arcologies, each holding 1M people and providing for all of their own needs (food and energy) in self-contained ways.... and that by "contracting" the world population into roughly 1000 of these (at the time) that it would "save the world"... this included NOT plowing up 1000 square miles around each arcology for intensive agriculture... and did imply a vegetarian/vegan diet (though maybe with aquaponics if not soylent-green).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology#:~:text=Arcology%2C%20a%20portmanteau%20of%20%22architecture,ecologically%20low%2Dimpact%20human%20habitats.

I also made a shift in consciousness maybe 25 years ago when I realized that we *don't all have to take the same route*. While I'm not a big fan of Musk's ideas of appropriating/colonizing Mars, I do think it is at least as inevitable and viable as the Norse colonizing Greenland and Vinland (even if they ultimately withdrew). So some sea-bottom arcologies, some rainforest-canopy arcologies, some desert, some polar, each with it's own character would suit me better. And surely Mars/Moon/Kuiper-belt too? Complexity theory would suggest a power-law distribution of scales too?

I hope we *don't* go to bio-slime and if we need several thousand Arcologies to "contain" the bulk of the human (over) population then I'm game... I won't be around for it and probably my children/grandchildren (who have chosen big cities: Portland/Denver) will be more adaptive to such. We could *also* reduce our population to something more sustainable. I'd like to hope (romantically) that there would still be room for some comfortably dispersed human populations living a sustainable/permaculture lifestyle as well... but the purists would need thousands of identical arcologies (hives) I am sure.

- Steve

On 6/3/20 12:44 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

Does it make me a sociopath for me to hope big cities *do* collapse and become a thing of the past? People who know me well understand when I say I like persons, but not people, which is to say that while I treasure individual friendships and relationships, I at best tolerate crowds. I think we have not evolved the psychological mechanisms to live together in great concentrations. Our advanced civilization is much too young to qualify as having stood the test of time, a few measly tens of thousands of years is such a small blip in time compared to the time life has existed on our planet. I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. But then, I could be absolutely, completely, wrong about all this, and instead just be a sociopath. I hope not.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 11:48 AM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Biofilm, huh? I think you may be on to something.

Returning a long-overdue book to the downtown Santa Fe library last evening, I took a walk thorough the plaza to see how our "phase two" was coming along. There were about 40 police strolling about--with only a few pedestrians, locals all wearing masks, and a few unfortunate tourists (not wearing masks, evidently not needed in the biofilm). There had been a rumor of a demonstration which had not materialized. So the officers were enjoying the evening "break", as they told me.

I can't sleep at night worrying about how we're going to keep peace in the valley in the near future as the quickening collapse of our systems becomes logarithmic. Many big-city police are recruited based on former military service. Also, many who get a high from dealing with violence are attracted to policing. The recruits are then trained as warriors, not peacekeepers, today even dressed for duty on the "front lines". Beyond the systemic context of racism, poverty, etc. etc., the elected city mothers and fathers who theoretically "control" local law enforcement either don't give a damn, or they're scared of the very powerful police unions.

I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.

https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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Steve Smith

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen -

> I doubt it. I think the odd text is a result of either their sending in HTML/MIME or your client's rendering of it.
I'm a Thunderbird user. I get a few other ideosyncratic renderings from
time to time as well. Jon's is merely the most consistent.
> Sometimes, Marcus' Outlook posts render funny. But I use "View Message Body" as "Simple HTML". So, I expect some funny renderings.
>
> And we're not piling on Jon ...
I appreciate that, thus <grin>
> I'm blatantly USING him as a robust foil, who won't be offended by the abuse, in order to push the idea that some one of us whose name will be left out to avoid persecution might be able to use the extant technology to draw out threads for collation and publication. >8^D

and I appreciate even more your good example/guidance/help by
coining/demonstrating idioms such as Robust Foil.

- Steve

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

Well Merle, we may just have to agree to disagree. I see AI and robotics as simply more advanced tools to help us individual Homo sapiens to live comfortably during our limited time of existence, and having more time to spend enjoying our sister and brother species without destroying them.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:02 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

The part you got wrong, Gary, was the last part. There will no doubt be fewer of us soon--many fewer according to the best estimates-- and perhaps we will survive on the planet living in small communities, growing and storing food, enjoying a local shared economy, and trying to flourish. But until we deeply acknowledge how hard we try to hang onto some version of our present material privileges (AI and robotics as the new slaves), we doom our species, along with our sister and brother species who help us survive.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Does it make me a sociopath for me to hope big cities *do* collapse and become a thing of the past? People who know me well understand when I say I like persons, but not people, which is to say that while I treasure individual friendships and relationships, I at best tolerate crowds. I think we have not evolved the psychological mechanisms to live together in great concentrations. Our advanced civilization is much too young to qualify as having stood the test of time, a few measly tens of thousands of years is such a small blip in time compared to the time life has existed on our planet. I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. But then, I could be absolutely, completely, wrong about all this, and instead just be a sociopath. I hope not.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 11:48 AM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Biofilm, huh? I think you may be on to something.

Returning a long-overdue book to the downtown Santa Fe library last evening, I took a walk thorough the plaza to see how our "phase two" was coming along. There were about 40 police strolling about--with only a few pedestrians, locals all wearing masks, and a few unfortunate tourists (not wearing masks, evidently not needed in the biofilm). There had been a rumor of a demonstration which had not materialized. So the officers were enjoying the evening "break", as they told me.

I can't sleep at night worrying about how we're going to keep peace in the valley in the near future as the quickening collapse of our systems becomes logarithmic. Many big-city police are recruited based on former military service. Also, many who get a high from dealing with violence are attracted to policing. The recruits are then trained as warriors, not peacekeepers, today even dressed for duty on the "front lines". Beyond the systemic context of racism, poverty, etc. etc., the elected city mothers and fathers who theoretically "control" local law enforcement either don't give a damn, or they're scared of the very powerful police unions.

I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.

https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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Prof David West

Re: Homo Hiveus or Bio Slime?

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Interesting / recommended:

Movie — Mortal Engines. "We have to destroy London" London traveling around the globe destroying all other mobile cities.

Book — SEVENEVES by Neal Stephenson. Black hole destroys moon, three arcologies (one a space station, one undersea, and one in Alaskan mine, survive but ethnic strife among the seven "races" (each the descendants of one of the Eves) survives as well.

davew

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, at 1:21 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Gary -
I do think your characterization if taken literally has a tinge of the sociopath in it... but I have similar instincts and offer this complementary? perspective:
I used to worry (a lot more) about what I called Homo Hiveus, an evolution (via social not genetic mechanisms) of our tribal species to a eusocial one.   It sounded like a purely miserable way of life, etc., yadda yadda.   I was a budding pseudo-liberatarian.
I credit Glen somewhat for harping against hyper-individuality (on and offlist) with me enough to get my attention, if not to completely straighten me out. I am not tuned or calibrated for crowds personally and I therefore ignore/avoid them... however that does not mean I don't believe that we either A) CAN become a better version of ourselves by giving over to a more collective way of being; or B) WILL move toward the biofilm Glen suggests whether that represents a "better" version of ourselves (by what measure?).
My instincts/embedded values weigh in: 1) I don't want to give up/lose my personal identity (ego) and/or agency to a collective; and 2) I don't want to see my species over-run the planet (any more than we have, and surely less) and exclude (most) other life-forms in the process.
I became interested in the futurist Paolo Soleri's Arcologies (Architected Ecologies) when he was building his first (and only) example in central AZ while I was in college in Northern AZ (1970s).   Through having done some laser scans of the Paolo Soleri Amphitheater I became more intimate with his staff at Arcosanti and have visited a few times.   One articulation of his vision for "Arcologies" is to build (I'm getting the numbers wrong I think but you can appreciate teh spirit) 1 square mile Arcologies, each holding 1M people and providing for all of their own needs (food and energy) in self-contained ways.... and that by "contracting" the world population into roughly 1000 of these (at the time) that it would "save the world"...    this included NOT plowing up 1000 square miles around each arcology for intensive agriculture... and did imply a vegetarian/vegan diet (though maybe with aquaponics if not soylent-green).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology#:~:text=Arcology%2C%20a%20portmanteau%20of%20%22architecture,ecologically%20low%2Dimpact%20human%20habitats.

I also made a shift in consciousness maybe 25 years ago when I realized that we *don't all have to take the same route*.   While I'm not a big fan of Musk's ideas of appropriating/colonizing Mars, I do think it is at least as inevitable and viable as the Norse colonizing Greenland and Vinland (even if they ultimately withdrew). So some sea-bottom arcologies, some rainforest-canopy arcologies, some desert, some polar, each with it's own character would suit me better. And surely Mars/Moon/Kuiper-belt too?   Complexity theory would suggest a power-law distribution of scales too?
I hope we *don't* go to bio-slime and if we need several thousand Arcologies to "contain" the bulk of the human (over) population then I'm game... I won't be around for it and probably my children/grandchildren (who have chosen big cities: Portland/Denver) will be more adaptive to such.   We could *also* reduce our population to something more sustainable.    I'd like to hope (romantically) that there would still be room for some comfortably dispersed human populations living a sustainable/permaculture lifestyle as well... but the purists would need thousands of identical arcologies (hives) I am sure.
- Steve

On 6/3/20 12:44 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
Does it make me a sociopath for me to hope big cities *do* collapse and become a thing of the past? People who know me well understand when I say I like persons, but not people, which is to say that while I treasure individual friendships and relationships, I at best tolerate crowds. I think we have not evolved the psychological mechanisms to live together in great concentrations. Our advanced civilization is much too young to qualify as having stood the test of time, a few measly tens of thousands of years is such a small blip in time compared to the time life has existed on our planet. I personally believe that the Earth would be much better off with under a billion (highly educated) people, with AI and robotics providing for the bulk of our material needs, and that is something we should as a species strive for. But then, I could be absolutely, completely, wrong about all this, and instead just be a sociopath. I hope not.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 11:48 AM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Biofilm, huh? I think you may be on to something.

Returning a long-overdue book to the downtown Santa Fe library last evening, I took a walk thorough the plaza to see how our "phase two" was coming along. There were about 40 police strolling about--with only a few pedestrians, locals all wearing masks, and a few unfortunate tourists (not wearing masks, evidently not needed in the biofilm). There had been a rumor of a demonstration which had not materialized. So the officers were enjoying the evening "break", as they told me.

I can't sleep at night worrying about how we're going to keep peace in the valley in the near future as the quickening collapse of our systems becomes logarithmic. Many big-city police are recruited based on former military service. Also, many who get a high from dealing with violence are attracted to policing. The recruits are then trained as warriors, not peacekeepers, today even dressed for duty on the "front lines". Beyond the systemic context of racism, poverty, etc. etc., the elected city mothers and fathers who theoretically "control" local law enforcement either don't give a damn, or they're scared of the very powerful police unions.

I'm old enough to remember the release of the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorder, known as the Kerner Report, FIFTY-TWO years ago in 1968. After surveying 24 "disorders" in 23 cities, the final conclusion was that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white--separate and unequal". The report then went on in extraordinary detail to describe the challenges of pervasive racism and the absence of political will to provide the federal money needed to intervene AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL. It was quite remarkable to read again; every word could have been written today; President Johnson immediately dismissed the report, released on February 29; and on April 4 Martin Luther King was shot dead.

https://hystericalcolorblindness.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/kerner-commission-report-pdf/

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 9:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Aside: Do you avoid using the Reply mechanism on purpose? The subject seems to be a normally formatted reply, but there are no References: headers in your posts. This prevents threading clients from treating your post as a reply. It seems like you're using the Gmail web client. But I haven't read email headers in awhile. So who knows?

I entertain a long-running (longer than usual for me) ill-formed hypothesis that as our population density approaches the carrying capacity of the earth, such isolation will be more and more rare. And that diversity will also go down. We'll become more of a biofilm (or superorganism) on the surface of the earth and less of a seething constellation of differentiable agents. One hitch is that as climate change worsens, some places will be the exclusive playgrounds of the wealthy (wealthy enough to own the water and supply chains to move goods to these rarified places). So you optimistic elitists living in compounds like Santa Fe (parasitic off those of us who might still function more naturally as climate change blossoms) will become more and more isolated while the rest of us become more and more like a biofilm.

So you'll need to cling to your diversity while it lasts because WE are coming for you! >8^D

On 6/3/20 7:41 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I personally find the Santa Fe police force to be very good at being
> empathetic and encouraging peaceful conflict. As someone who has spent
> half of my life living in dense urban centers, I often feel a responsibility
> to witness when I see police interactions with others. Moving to Santa Fe has
> done a lot to remediate my feelings around the police. Further, while there is
> a very long way to go wrt race and equity, the discussion has been explicitly
> in motion here in New Mexico for a long time. Is it possible that our apparent
> /isolation from the broader unrest/ is a sign of maturity within our social
> discourse? I have some concern that there may be a rising pressure
> across the diverse regions of our country to abstract away our differences,
> and to behave as if the discourse is /everywhere the same/. Doing so in
> many cases would erase the very good work that has been hard-won.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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gepr

Re: Homo Hiveus or Bio Slime?

If that's the movie I'm thinking of, I enthusiastically 2nd the recommendation!

On June 3, 2020 1:33:12 PM PDT, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Movie — Mortal Engines. "We have to destroy London" London traveling
>around the globe destroying all other mobile cities.

--
glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Homo Hiveus or Bio Slime?

I would side with London, in general.

On 6/3/20, 1:42 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

If that's the movie I'm thinking of, I enthusiastically 2nd the recommendation!

On June 3, 2020 1:33:12 PM PDT, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Movie — Mortal Engines. "We have to destroy London" London traveling
>around the globe destroying all other mobile cities.

--
glen

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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

0th lesson: Reply, don't Forward.
1st lesson: Don't lard, whole thoughts only, top or bottom posted.
2nd lesson: Trim the parts of the post you're responding to down to the part you're responding to.
3rd lesson: Sporadically summarize the gist of the thread including edited/selected (for and against) [ir]relevant sub-threads.
4th lesson: Don't use a web client. Download all of the posts, and download the whole of every post, including the headers.

And, no. *I* will never use HTML compostion unless it's by accident because I'm on a stupid ... I mean "smart" ... device wherein I can't figure out how to make it plain text. What does HTML get you anyway? ... except for extra formatting that takes even more tech to handle well? Now, if you really do NOT want to use email, then don't use email. Move to a different forum technology. There's a-plenty out there.

On 6/3/20 12:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> */[NST===> I hear you callin’ glen, but I genuinely don’t know how to respond. If you have ways that we might organize our conversations so they made more sense, and you are willing to give expert-to-citizen instructions, I promise to try them. In the meantime, you couldn’t, by any chance, speaking of Ludditry, be seduced into using HTML?<===nst] /*

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

< And, no. *I* will never use HTML compostion unless it's by accident because I'm on a stupid ... I mean "smart" ... device wherein I can't figure out how to make it plain text. What does HTML get you anyway? ... except for extra formatting that takes even more tech to handle well? Now, if you really do NOT want to use email, then don't use email. Move to a different forum technology. There's a-plenty out there. >

HTML provides better ways to highlight text that do not involve changing the visible glyphs.
HTML is everywhere. More tech is better. It's not 1995.

Marcus

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by gepr

Can you tell whether I'm using a web client?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 5:29 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

0th lesson: Reply, don't Forward.
1st lesson: Don't lard, whole thoughts only, top or bottom posted.
2nd lesson: Trim the parts of the post you're responding to down to the part you're responding to.
3rd lesson: Sporadically summarize the gist of the thread including edited/selected (for and against) [ir]relevant sub-threads.
4th lesson: Don't use a web client. Download all of the posts, and download the whole of every post, including the headers.

And, no. *I* will never use HTML compostion unless it's by accident because I'm on a stupid ... I mean "smart" ... device wherein I can't figure out how to make it plain text. What does HTML get you anyway? ... except for extra formatting that takes even more tech to handle well? Now, if you really do NOT want to use email, then don't use email. Move to a different forum technology. There's a-plenty out there.

On 6/3/20 12:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> */[NST===> I hear you callin’ glen, but I genuinely don’t know how to respond. If you have ways that we might organize our conversations so they made more sense, and you are willing to give expert-to-citizen instructions, I promise to try them. In the meantime, you couldn’t, by any chance, speaking of Ludditry, be seduced into using HTML?<===nst] /*

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Ha! No. Technology is NOT monotonic. HTML sucks. SGML sucks. ... XML? IDK, maybe, for some things, not for everything.

On 6/3/20 4:35 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> HTML provides better ways to highlight text that do not involve changing the visible glyphs.
> HTML is everywhere. More tech is better. It's not 1995.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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gepr

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Not with a very high confidence. But your posts look like Gmail web client posts.

On 6/3/20 4:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Can you tell whether I'm using a web client?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Santa Fe Plaza Riot

That one was from a Google Pixel Gmail client. No web client involved although when I'm working on my laptop there is.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 5:45 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not with a very high confidence. But your posts look like Gmail web client posts.

On 6/3/20 4:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Can you tell whether I'm using a web client?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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