labels

[Carl Tollander]

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Carl Tollander]

Was momentarily confused.   Cerberus is a dog.  Cerebus is an aardvark, and a better homunculi than I.

 

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 11:43 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

I know, right? And Cerberus is NOT a good shepherd. I mean, he's a good deterrent as long as he stands in the doorway. But when he heads out to do his business and the homunculi scatter, there's no good way to round 'em up again.

On 10/12/20 10:06 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Ha ha, someone broke the lock in Glen's homunculus dungeon.


--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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[Steve Smith]

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Prof David West]

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Carl Tollander]

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Merle Lefkoff-2]

I took the test, and the only person left of me in the lower left-hand corner is Pytor Alexeyevich Kropotkin, a Russian anarchist, socialist, revolutionary economist.  That sounds about right.  Noam Chomsky and the others are way off to my right.  Thanks, this was fun and very confirming that my political compass is pointing in good order.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>



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[Patrick Reilly]

Economic Left/Right: -8.38 

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.54

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:35 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

I took the test, and the only person left of me in the lower left-hand corner is Pytor Alexeyevich Kropotkin, a Russian anarchist, socialist, revolutionary economist.  That sounds about right.  Noam Chomsky and the others are way off to my right.  Thanks, this was fun and very confirming that my political compass is pointing in good order.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>



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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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[Prof David West]

Carl,

Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book

The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.

I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.

You might enjoy it.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Steve Smith]

We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...

My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji  I was struck by how intrinsic the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are.   Pictograms are more "visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of language.  It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana).   Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.

I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)

- Steve

On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:

Carl,

Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book

The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.

I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.

You might enjoy it.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[David Eric Smith]

Hi Steve,

A linguist I knew who had written on this as a core theme was Bill Wong, then at the City University of Hong Kong (where I hoped to visit, but sadly never did), and apparently more findable as an emeritus at Berkely than at either of the Hong Kongs (City or Chinese, where I think he went for a time):

https://lx.berkeley.edu/william-s-y-wang

Bill was interested in the way ideographic writing allowed a much more rapid progression of homophony, as one now finds in standard Mandarin, which is much more reduced than Cantonese in terms of tones and (to a lesser degree) vowels, though not as reduced as modern Cantonese in terms of fricatives.  Bill used to claim that if one watches carefully around Beijing, one can see in complicated conversations, people having to sketch characters in the air to make non-obvious distinctions in which word is meant.  Steve G has lived and worked there and understood what was going on around him, and can perhaps comment on this.

I remember a draft manuscript Bill gave me to read maybe 18 years ago now, about how ideographic writing has particular strengths that are lost with a transition to alphabets or syllabaries.  Also, I am told there is a tradition of magic-square-poetry in Chinese, where something like a tic-tac-toe array of characters is supposed to be readable as a meaningful expression along each column and maybe rows or diagonals.  I think that came from Jay Garfield at Smith college, not from Bill, but I am not very sure of that sourcing.  I expect that, if one had time and inclination, a reading tree starting with Bill's review articles would lead rapidly to harder stuff.

It has also always made me wonder about the thinking behind the simplified characters.  In a careful study, did inserting random strokes in place of meaningful radicals really increase the rates of language learning?  If so, it surprises me and says something either about the nature of learning written languages, or at least about the way they were being taught.

I thought katakana arose as fragmentary writing by noble-family women relatively late, and I recall having read more but not remembering it.  How it got adopted as the standard form for foreign expressions and some more minor usages is surely something one can find in standard language books, but I have not read.  

The other syllabary, hiragana, is probably inescapable when you have characters for lexical roots borrowed into a language with agglutinating syntax, which Chinese does not have.  It doesn’t help, either, that there were multiple waves of Chinese influence, at different times and from different groups on the mainland, in Japan over many hundreds of years.  So add to the 2 or 3 indigenous pronunciations from groups that clearly stayed close to home, the 3 or 4 or 5 borrowed forms from China, and it is a wonder anyone ever knows which pronunciation for anything should be used.  I always find it interesting when we get student applications for things, and the (very traditional and classically educated) chair of the selection committee circulates the applications, with an apology that he doesn’t know how the first names should be pronounced if there are not hiragana traces to indicate.  Having markers to indicate nominal or verbal forms as well as case or aspect should lessen the cognitive load while reading, of having to go a few characters downstream to back-parse what role the earlier characters were taking in the sentence.  Probably for some things like case or aspect, they couldn’t be disambiguated at all without the hiragana.  

I wish I were good enough at my day job to have the time or actually put in the effort to be a Japanophile, or anything else that would be interesting to really understand.

Best,

Eric

On Oct 13, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...

My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji  I was struck by how intrinsic the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are.   Pictograms are more "visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of language.  It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana).   Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.

I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)

- Steve

On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:

Carl,

Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book

The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.

I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.

You might enjoy it. 

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve, 

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1 

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Carl Tollander]

Great question!    Busy week, tho.   We might look at related kanji (my favorite is the kanji characters for gate and ma), the system of radicals, and various systems for transliteration (romaji, Hepburn, etc) and different systems for pronouncing the same kanji, and how all those interlace.  

It is quite the rabbit hole.   Consider:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%80#Japanese

and

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%93

The last question is even better and I will have some thoughts there later, but as I say, busy week.

C

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...

My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji  I was struck by how intrinsic the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are.   Pictograms are more "visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of language.  It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana).   Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.

I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)

- Steve

On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:

Carl,

Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book

The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.

I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.

You might enjoy it.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[David Eric Smith]

That lovely example of Carl’s reminds me of one of my favorites from Tuvan, not ideographic, but like Japanese agglutinative in syntax, and putatively a distant cousin.

In Tuvan, -da is an aspect marker indicating movement away from something.  (I think that aspect is called “ablative”.)

Kazhan is the lexical root for “when”.

The word for “never” is kazhanda, as in "Men silerning kashznda utpas" (I will never forget y’all).

Not far from the gate and ma extension, though the latter is a bit more directly material.

Eric

On Oct 13, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:

Great question!    Busy week, tho.   We might look at related kanji (my favorite is the kanji characters for gate and ma), the system of radicals, and various systems for transliteration (romaji, Hepburn, etc) and different systems for pronouncing the same kanji, and how all those interlace.  

It is quite the rabbit hole.   Consider:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%80#Japanese

and

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%93

The last question is even better and I will have some thoughts there later, but as I say, busy week.

C

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...

My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji  I was struck by how intrinsic the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are.   Pictograms are more "visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of language.  It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana).   Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.

I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)

- Steve

On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:

Carl,

Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book

The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.

I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.

You might enjoy it.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[David Eric Smith]

I don’t really know which thread to attach to, or where best to attach to it.

But in a room I was in, Sheldon Whitehouse’s statement in the confirmation hearing was playing:

https://www.facebook.com/derek.friday/videos/10102085065399760/

This seems to me where the conversation should be, (or at least this part of it).  I would like the evening news better if they would include content of this kind. For cynics about politicians who want to cop-out and say “Ah, they’re all rats”, I would like to put this forward as an argument that there are plenty there to work with.

Narrow questions that can be answered legalistically, but that refuse to address the big mechanisms of causation, seem to me to be pure distractions, and it irritates me that they get more than proportional time.  Any meaning the narrow moves get is coming from these big causal contexts, and it is worth seeing a bit of the machinery by which they are organized.

Anyway, 

Eric

On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Thaniks, EricS for reading and commenting on the Amy Interview  I am such a benighted, naïve, stupid, optimist.  I can imagine that if she were an Obama nominee, I would be saying, “We have a good one here!”

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

 

Yes, and not only Ugh.

 

The two places this bothers me as a category error are:

 

1. It conflates writing the rules of the game and being a player in the game.  Shubik used to harp on this: that the government’s role as the declarer of monetary policy, and as the participant in fiscal policy, were roles at different levels, game designer versus large atomic player.  The category isn’t quite as clean here, in that a rule targeting balanced affiliation isn’t exactly the same as playing for one side.  It is a bit more like certain monkey societies, in which the problem-solver steps in on the side of whoever is being attacked to lessen the asymmetry.

 

But it still feels like it has a related problem, of defining an outer law (constitution or statute for structure of the court) in terms of a non-legal convention (the particular parties and how they are non-formally categorized and weighted in the society at this time), and that feels completely unstable against drift.  

 

A more mechanism-design-y thing would be to revisit whichever Federalist Paper it was that talked about the destabilizing role of parties, never imagining the technologies for coordination that would be available to them 230 years later, and ask what the mechanism update is to the constitution in a world where instabilities toward consolidation are so extreme.  Kind of the same spirit as revisiting capitalist property rights laws when a warehouser and distributor can come to own the whole economy.

 

2. In the Coney Barrett talk that Nick circulated, she made an important point that should be true, even if we could argue that it is a smokescreen that isn’t true in reality.  She says “liberal/conservative” in regard to the interpretation of constitutional law are different categories from “liberal/conservative” as political affiliations.  She probably even believes it, though I expect that her SCOTUS decisions will magically align with the political axes 100% of the time, and one must ask how that happens to always be the case.  

 

Of course, the question is whether it is all disingenuous.  Thomas Edsall had a decent article in NYT a few days ago on originalism/living-text definitions, that was right on the thread we were on.  It is interesting that the opponents of each side make _exactly_ the same accusation toward it: that the side they are criticizing has no real method and is a program for rationalizing whatever outcome the judge wanted politically.  To the extent that that is true in substance, if obfuscated in appearance, then Coney Barrett’s claim that they are different categories is a falsehood.  One wonders then at what level of argument one could force her to acknowledge that error.

 

Eric. 

On Oct 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then  ---------

 

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

 

 

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha!  I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court...  add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".   

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve


On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,


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[Steve Smith]

Carl/Eric -

Rabbit Holes R Us!

Thanks for the great offering of parallax here.  I feel that this group/list often defaults to a somewhat analytical stance and tries to drill down, zoom in, decompose the things we discuss while there are always aspects of the topic with are best deferred to applications of parallax and synthesis (or some of each, annealing style?)...

This topic, of unfamiliar languages and language forms and the cultures they developed within, provides us with some "instant parallax" I believe.   If I had my life to live over again, I think I would choose (knowing what I know now) to try to be/come multicultural. 

- Steve

On 10/13/20 10:34 AM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Great question!    Busy week, tho.   We might look at related kanji (my favorite is the kanji characters for gate and ma), the system of radicals, and various systems for transliteration (romaji, Hepburn, etc) and different systems for pronouncing the same kanji, and how all those interlace.  

It is quite the rabbit hole.   Consider:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%80#Japanese

and

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%96%93

The last question is even better and I will have some thoughts there later, but as I say, busy week.

C

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...

My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji  I was struck by how intrinsic the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are.   Pictograms are more "visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of language.  It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana).   Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.

I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)

- Steve

On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:

Carl,

Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book

The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.

I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.

You might enjoy it.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Dave,

Thanks, not there yet.    Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.   

The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection.   A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.

Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation.   One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters".  (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.   

C

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.

davew

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Carl -

Acknowledged.   The foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.   Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?

- Steve

Steve,

You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no reason to be an ass.

>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[gepr]

So, along with the comments made about Roberts' memos and recognition that the court is just as political as the other 3 branches (and the implicit 4th), and hearkening back to the apparent capitalist *requirement* of a permanent, but materially open, under class, what concrete form could a Platonic Constitutional Representative Democracy take? If not "text", then what? What expression(s) do we have to enshrine in order to enshrine the abstract concepts being expressed?

Maybe *multiple* expressions would approximate it better, a text, a diagram/animation, and a mechanistic computation. (My principle is 3 are required, 2 is inadequate, 1 is ridicule-worthy.) So if the concept(s) to be enshrined are separation of powers into, say, 4 branches of government, then from that conceptual constitution, we write a text, draw a diagram, and build a simulation. Then those 3 "documents" are held up as "the Constitution" ... "the law of the land".

To my mind, that question *precedes* the causal inferencing (well-) shone by Whitehouse. The extraction of an ephemeris from noise requires some sort of prior model. We have to decide kindasorta what we're looking for before we start willy-nilly inferring. (While relatively agnostic inference algorithms like empirical mode decomposition are always attractive, TANSTAAFL.)

On 10/13/20 12:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> I don’t really know which thread to attach to, or where best to attach to it.
>
> But in a room I was in, Sheldon Whitehouse’s statement in the confirmation hearing was playing:
> https://www.facebook.com/derek.friday/videos/10102085065399760/
> This seems to me where the conversation should be, (or at least this part of it).  I would like the evening news better if they would include content of this kind. For cynics about politicians who want to cop-out and say “Ah, they’re all rats”, I would like to put this forward as an argument that there are plenty there to work with.
>
> Narrow questions that can be answered legalistically, but that refuse to address the big mechanisms of causation, seem to me to be pure distractions, and it irritates me that they get more than proportional time.  Any meaning the narrow moves get is coming from these big causal contexts, and it is worth seeing a bit of the machinery by which they are organized.


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[Prof David West]

Put the left brain aside.

Make a half-dozen or so Ayahuasca sessions mandatory for anyone aspiring to, elected to, or appointed to any level of government position (including local DMV clerks) and sit back and observe the "ideal" form of government emerge. An argument could be made that the Athenian government arose, in significant part, from just such a process.

Jon will back me up on this as soon as he finishes Muraresku's book.

davew


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, at 9:21 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> So, along with the comments made about Roberts' memos and recognition
> that the court is just as political as the other 3 branches (and the
> implicit 4th), and hearkening back to the apparent capitalist
> *requirement* of a permanent, but materially open, under class, what
> concrete form could a Platonic Constitutional Representative Democracy
> take? If not "text", then what? What expression(s) do we have to
> enshrine in order to enshrine the abstract concepts being expressed?
>
> Maybe *multiple* expressions would approximate it better, a text, a
> diagram/animation, and a mechanistic computation. (My principle is 3
> are required, 2 is inadequate, 1 is ridicule-worthy.) So if the
> concept(s) to be enshrined are separation of powers into, say, 4
> branches of government, then from that conceptual constitution, we
> write a text, draw a diagram, and build a simulation. Then those 3
> "documents" are held up as "the Constitution" ... "the law of the land".
>
> To my mind, that question *precedes* the causal inferencing (well-)
> shone by Whitehouse. The extraction of an ephemeris from noise requires
> some sort of prior model. We have to decide kindasorta what we're
> looking for before we start willy-nilly inferring. (While relatively
> agnostic inference algorithms like empirical mode decomposition are
> always attractive, TANSTAAFL.)
>
> On 10/13/20 12:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> > I don’t really know which thread to attach to, or where best to attach to it.
> >
> > But in a room I was in, Sheldon Whitehouse’s statement in the confirmation hearing was playing:
> > https://www.facebook.com/derek.friday/videos/10102085065399760/
> > This seems to me where the conversation should be, (or at least this part of it).  I would like the evening news better if they would include content of this kind. For cynics about politicians who want to cop-out and say “Ah, they’re all rats”, I would like to put this forward as an argument that there are plenty there to work with.
> >
> > Narrow questions that can be answered legalistically, but that refuse to address the big mechanisms of causation, seem to me to be pure distractions, and it irritates me that they get more than proportional time.  Any meaning the narrow moves get is coming from these big causal contexts, and it is worth seeing a bit of the machinery by which they are organized.
>
>
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[gepr]

But the question being put is fundamentally about what concrete objects could provide the touchstone ... the analog, the real measurement device ... for any such "ideal" government. If textualism is too open to interpretation (whether "originalist" or "living document"), what other concrete objects can we use to avoid that interpretive wiggle room?

Those "narrow" questions decided by some technicality or other, like abortion rights being a privacy issue, only exist because our Constitution is too interpretable ... like priests argueing jargonal, hermeneutic minutia. The only reason I reject your accusations of Scientism is because, in proper science, we have (relatively) concrete analogs against which to test our hypothetical constructs. For a Constitutional government, we don't really have a persistent thing to lay our thoughts on top of to see if they fit ... like the old platinum-iridium meter bar.

What we need is a miniature government machine like an Orrery or something ... but not an oracle like His Dark Materials' alethometer ... a *structural* and behavioral analogy to the way we design the government to work. Screw the pocket Constitution! We need a Computer Constitution ... we could put one in your car to tell you which traffic laws are violations *and* one in every Justice's pocket to tell them which legislation grinds the machine's gears and which legislation makes it purr.


On 10/14/20 1:48 PM, Prof David West wrote:

> Put the left brain aside.
>
> Make a half-dozen or so Ayahuasca sessions mandatory for anyone aspiring to, elected to, or appointed to any level of government position (including local DMV clerks) and sit back and observe the "ideal" form of government emerge. An argument could be made that the Athenian government arose, in significant part, from just such a process.
>
> Jon will back me up on this as soon as he finishes Muraresku's book.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, at 9:21 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
>> So, along with the comments made about Roberts' memos and recognition
>> that the court is just as political as the other 3 branches (and the
>> implicit 4th), and hearkening back to the apparent capitalist
>> *requirement* of a permanent, but materially open, under class, what
>> concrete form could a Platonic Constitutional Representative Democracy
>> take? If not "text", then what? What expression(s) do we have to
>> enshrine in order to enshrine the abstract concepts being expressed?
>>
>> Maybe *multiple* expressions would approximate it better, a text, a
>> diagram/animation, and a mechanistic computation. (My principle is 3
>> are required, 2 is inadequate, 1 is ridicule-worthy.) So if the
>> concept(s) to be enshrined are separation of powers into, say, 4
>> branches of government, then from that conceptual constitution, we
>> write a text, draw a diagram, and build a simulation. Then those 3
>> "documents" are held up as "the Constitution" ... "the law of the land".
>>
>> To my mind, that question *precedes* the causal inferencing (well-)
>> shone by Whitehouse. The extraction of an ephemeris from noise requires
>> some sort of prior model. We have to decide kindasorta what we're
>> looking for before we start willy-nilly inferring. (While relatively
>> agnostic inference algorithms like empirical mode decomposition are
>> always attractive, TANSTAAFL.)
>>
>> On 10/13/20 12:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> I don’t really know which thread to attach to, or where best to attach to it.
>>>
>>> But in a room I was in, Sheldon Whitehouse’s statement in the confirmation hearing was playing:
>>> https://www.facebook.com/derek.friday/videos/10102085065399760/
>>> This seems to me where the conversation should be, (or at least this part of it).  I would like the evening news better if they would include content of this kind. For cynics about politicians who want to cop-out and say “Ah, they’re all rats”, I would like to put this forward as an argument that there are plenty there to work with.
>>>
>>> Narrow questions that can be answered legalistically, but that refuse to address the big mechanisms of causation, seem to me to be pure distractions, and it irritates me that they get more than proportional time.  Any meaning the narrow moves get is coming from these big causal contexts, and it is worth seeing a bit of the machinery by which they are organized.

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[jon zingale]

Ha, maybe, but even Athens fell to Sparta.



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[David Eric Smith]

I wish I had any idea to offer in response to this post, because the thrust of it is one I agree with.

I am always thrown back on completely intangible factors like whether people act in good faith, a formulation that is as old as humankind, with endless storytelling about how to deal with it, and still it is where much is undone all day every day.

One thing I am aware of is that _many_ things that cause us trouble are “marginalist”, as the economists would call it.

The Law of One Price in posted-price markets sets the price by the marginal buyer and seller who will just-barely enter the market.  Worried about water wastage in Northern NM juxtaposed with water unaffordability?  Well, too bad for you and for everybody.  If there is a distribution tail of rich vacationers up in Glorieta who can afford to pay a lot for water for luxury uses, then the price of water will go wherever meets them on the margin, by volume of water, not by number of people served.  Housing in the Bay Area as far inland as Tracy?  Residential space in Boston?  Law of One Price extracts relatively little of what economists would call “consumer’s surplus”, compared to other matching algorithms that would match those who could pay more against those who must charge more, and those who can’t pay much against those willing to sell for little.  Auctions, being non-one-price, add dimensionality; it would be interesting to know whether they do better in extracting consumer’s surplus, and by what measure in the large scope of desirable economic outcomes.  They don’t treat people equally with respect to price, but since people enter the market in unequal condition, is violation of one price more-equal or less-equal “under the law”?

Then electoral politics is marginal.  All the obvious stuff: swing states, swing districts, “undecided voters”  (Airline hostess: For dinner, we have two options; chicken or.a plate of shit with broken glass.  Undecided voter, pauses to think a minute: How is the chicken cooked?), vast money put into hand-to-hand fighting over small gerrymanders and sectors of excluded voters, states for which the vote is essentially not a useful tool for gaining representation (though people living in them may have other tools in other arenas).

Then things like the confirmation.  Dick Durban’s comments on the uselessness of the whole hearing process in any modern era sounded to me like good and honest commentary.  Nicholas Kristof wrote an NYT column on essentially the same thing.  Nowadays the confirmation hearings are pure legalistic combat, between senators many of whom are proudly corrupt and cynical, and nominees who refuse effectively to participate in anything.  (Judge B, do you take as part of your working knowledge that the world is round?  B:  I have read opinions on that question, and I have no set commitment myself at this time.)  

I guess parliamentary systems are supposed to add dimensionality in the political realm, maybe vaguely as auctions or haggling markets (Chinese or Indian street markets in the old days, when there was no question of one price) add dimensionality beyond marginalist markets.  Probably there should be coalitional-form game-theoretic analysis of such systems qua systems in aggregate, along the line of Shapley’s “value”, or its spinoff, sometimes termed the Shapley-Shubik power index.  One could ask how to formalize the hypothesis that, in a society where party organization, firm and conglomerate organization, and private wealth organization, can become massively sophisticated, robust, and encompassing, a two-party system etc. throws away a lot of capacity for fine-grained representation, and then ask what the effective addition of dimensionality is in one or another alternative.

Eric

> On Oct 14, 2020, at 11:21 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So, along with the comments made about Roberts' memos and recognition that the court is just as political as the other 3 branches (and the implicit 4th), and hearkening back to the apparent capitalist *requirement* of a permanent, but materially open, under class, what concrete form could a Platonic Constitutional Representative Democracy take? If not "text", then what? What expression(s) do we have to enshrine in order to enshrine the abstract concepts being expressed?
>
> Maybe *multiple* expressions would approximate it better, a text, a diagram/animation, and a mechanistic computation. (My principle is 3 are required, 2 is inadequate, 1 is ridicule-worthy.) So if the concept(s) to be enshrined are separation of powers into, say, 4 branches of government, then from that conceptual constitution, we write a text, draw a diagram, and build a simulation. Then those 3 "documents" are held up as "the Constitution" ... "the law of the land".
>
> To my mind, that question *precedes* the causal inferencing (well-) shone by Whitehouse. The extraction of an ephemeris from noise requires some sort of prior model. We have to decide kindasorta what we're looking for before we start willy-nilly inferring. (While relatively agnostic inference algorithms like empirical mode decomposition are always attractive, TANSTAAFL.)
>
> On 10/13/20 12:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> I don’t really know which thread to attach to, or where best to attach to it.
>>
>> But in a room I was in, Sheldon Whitehouse’s statement in the confirmation hearing was playing:
>> https://www.facebook.com/derek.friday/videos/10102085065399760/
>> This seems to me where the conversation should be, (or at least this part of it).  I would like the evening news better if they would include content of this kind. For cynics about politicians who want to cop-out and say “Ah, they’re all rats”, I would like to put this forward as an argument that there are plenty there to work with.
>>
>> Narrow questions that can be answered legalistically, but that refuse to address the big mechanisms of causation, seem to me to be pure distractions, and it irritates me that they get more than proportional time.  Any meaning the narrow moves get is coming from these big causal contexts, and it is worth seeing a bit of the machinery by which they are organized.
>
>
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[Steve Smith]

Eric -

Excellent articulation as usual!   I have had a hard time thinking of
our political (and governing, regulating?) systems as "markets" but to
the extent that is how you are characterizing them here (at least by
allusion),  I felt I had a glimpse of some of "what is wrong" for us as
we optimize ourselves into one corner or another (4 more years?).   The
examples from economics, margins and One Price felt to expand my
awareness of some of the ways we go wrong in our own faux "haggling" 
over policies, candidates, etc.   I have harped on dimensionality
before, but I think the way you expose it here is very helpful.

- Steve


On 10/16/20 3:37 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:

> I wish I had any idea to offer in response to this post, because the thrust of it is one I agree with.
>
> I am always thrown back on completely intangible factors like whether people act in good faith, a formulation that is as old as humankind, with endless storytelling about how to deal with it, and still it is where much is undone all day every day.
>
> One thing I am aware of is that _many_ things that cause us trouble are “marginalist”, as the economists would call it.
>
> The Law of One Price in posted-price markets sets the price by the marginal buyer and seller who will just-barely enter the market.  Worried about water wastage in Northern NM juxtaposed with water unaffordability?  Well, too bad for you and for everybody.  If there is a distribution tail of rich vacationers up in Glorieta who can afford to pay a lot for water for luxury uses, then the price of water will go wherever meets them on the margin, by volume of water, not by number of people served.  Housing in the Bay Area as far inland as Tracy?  Residential space in Boston?  Law of One Price extracts relatively little of what economists would call “consumer’s surplus”, compared to other matching algorithms that would match those who could pay more against those who must charge more, and those who can’t pay much against those willing to sell for little.  Auctions, being non-one-price, add dimensionality; it would be interesting to know whether they do better in extracting consumer’s surplus, and by what measure in the large scope of desirable economic outcomes.  They don’t treat people equally with respect to price, but since people enter the market in unequal condition, is violation of one price more-equal or less-equal “under the law”?
>
> Then electoral politics is marginal.  All the obvious stuff: swing states, swing districts, “undecided voters”  (Airline hostess: For dinner, we have two options; chicken or.a plate of shit with broken glass.  Undecided voter, pauses to think a minute: How is the chicken cooked?), vast money put into hand-to-hand fighting over small gerrymanders and sectors of excluded voters, states for which the vote is essentially not a useful tool for gaining representation (though people living in them may have other tools in other arenas).
>
> Then things like the confirmation.  Dick Durban’s comments on the uselessness of the whole hearing process in any modern era sounded to me like good and honest commentary.  Nicholas Kristof wrote an NYT column on essentially the same thing.  Nowadays the confirmation hearings are pure legalistic combat, between senators many of whom are proudly corrupt and cynical, and nominees who refuse effectively to participate in anything.  (Judge B, do you take as part of your working knowledge that the world is round?  B:  I have read opinions on that question, and I have no set commitment myself at this time.)  
>
> I guess parliamentary systems are supposed to add dimensionality in the political realm, maybe vaguely as auctions or haggling markets (Chinese or Indian street markets in the old days, when there was no question of one price) add dimensionality beyond marginalist markets.  Probably there should be coalitional-form game-theoretic analysis of such systems qua systems in aggregate, along the line of Shapley’s “value”, or its spinoff, sometimes termed the Shapley-Shubik power index.  One could ask how to formalize the hypothesis that, in a society where party organization, firm and conglomerate organization, and private wealth organization, can become massively sophisticated, robust, and encompassing, a two-party system etc. throws away a lot of capacity for fine-grained representation, and then ask what the effective addition of dimensionality is in one or another alternative.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Oct 14, 2020, at 11:21 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So, along with the comments made about Roberts' memos and recognition that the court is just as political as the other 3 branches (and the implicit 4th), and hearkening back to the apparent capitalist *requirement* of a permanent, but materially open, under class, what concrete form could a Platonic Constitutional Representative Democracy take? If not "text", then what? What expression(s) do we have to enshrine in order to enshrine the abstract concepts being expressed?
>>
>> Maybe *multiple* expressions would approximate it better, a text, a diagram/animation, and a mechanistic computation. (My principle is 3 are required, 2 is inadequate, 1 is ridicule-worthy.) So if the concept(s) to be enshrined are separation of powers into, say, 4 branches of government, then from that conceptual constitution, we write a text, draw a diagram, and build a simulation. Then those 3 "documents" are held up as "the Constitution" ... "the law of the land".
>>
>> To my mind, that question *precedes* the causal inferencing (well-) shone by Whitehouse. The extraction of an ephemeris from noise requires some sort of prior model. We have to decide kindasorta what we're looking for before we start willy-nilly inferring. (While relatively agnostic inference algorithms like empirical mode decomposition are always attractive, TANSTAAFL.)
>>
>> On 10/13/20 12:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> I don’t really know which thread to attach to, or where best to attach to it.
>>>
>>> But in a room I was in, Sheldon Whitehouse’s statement in the confirmation hearing was playing:
>>> https://www.facebook.com/derek.friday/videos/10102085065399760/
>>> This seems to me where the conversation should be, (or at least this part of it).  I would like the evening news better if they would include content of this kind. For cynics about politicians who want to cop-out and say “Ah, they’re all rats”, I would like to put this forward as an argument that there are plenty there to work with.
>>>
>>> Narrow questions that can be answered legalistically, but that refuse to address the big mechanisms of causation, seem to me to be pure distractions, and it irritates me that they get more than proportional time.  Any meaning the narrow moves get is coming from these big causal contexts, and it is worth seeing a bit of the machinery by which they are organized.
>>
>> --
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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