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Steve Smith

Re: labels

Frank -

Yes to both... attempting a formal mapping, but speaking loosely by metaphor, awaiting that formulation...

Left/Right is discussed/expressed as a dimension. But I think we all can agree that the political domain is in fact, higher dimensional than that, and that our rhetoric projects dozens of issues onto that single dimension.

I accept that it may be hard to put a metric on these dimensions, or to agree on the metric (or dimensions). I would suspect that political scientists *do* have metrics and dimensions, but the ones I use anecdotally are simply my own wild-ass guesses. I believe the anecdotally identified dimensions are at least *orderable* if not *metrizeable*...

Does this still sound like nonsense?

- Steve

On 10/10/20 12:43 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Wait, what? Eigenvectors are properties of a linear transformation from a space to itself. What's the space and what's the linear transformation? Principal components analysis is a method of spanning a space of variables with one of lower dimension.

Or are you speaking metaphorically?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 12:27 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marcus -

(in mild agreement/acknowledgement of your point as I understand it)

I suppose my own biases about human nature are that we are driven along an internal greed/fear axis which is then "weaponized" by the politicos.   The Right seems particularly adept at both, while impugning the Left as if they are the ones playing those trump (Trump?) cards...

Other axes such as equality/equanimity,   group loyalty/deference to authority, etc.   seem *somewhat* orthogonal..

I suspect the terms "Progressive" and "Conservative" don't really capture what is actually exhibited/explored by the Left/Right tug-of war.   I know that as I have aged/matured/evolved I've become *much* more socially progressive whilst feeling much more conservative about progress itself... not trusting the headlong rush we are on, while acknowledging that it is (somewhat) inevitable.

Following the arc of SteveG's ideas about collective intelligence, least/stationary action, bidirectional path-tracing as a paradigm that eclipses or replaces or maybe subsumes (neo) Darwinism and Paternalism, I also feel that we are overdue for some fundamental refactoring of our collective models/paradigms.   I'm no more interested in the style of Pol Pot's Communism than I am in Hitler's Fascism or Stalin's Fascism-disguised-as-Socialism than I am in Trump's variants on the same.   They seem like they are all aberrant excursions into a highly compressed (projection) subspace that is at best a *shadow* of what is really needed/possible.

- Steve

On 10/10/20 11:37 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
My model is that people lean left and right as a developmental aspect of personality, and the parties mimic but also manipulate those patterns. People really must be gamed and manipulated by politicians because even the best-intentioned people are often ignorant of the complexity of the population and the practicalities of governance. Worse, many people are blamers who have nothing to add beyond What’s In It For Me.

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 9:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

Nick-

Not trying to ding you personally for this, but this kind of blind deference to authority/party/tribe/loyalty is one of the mechanisms I'm trying to tease a part with Marcus' reference to the Left/Right *dominant* component as an inevitability? And I *think* EricC's questioning of that assumption?

How *do* our political parties "precess" in higher dimensional space such that the subdominant components can "flip" entirely... how did the party of Lincoln Republicans who rejected secession and abolished Slavery and their opposition which had a strong component of what became formally the Dixiecrats, effectively flip positions? The party that accused (accuses?) their opposition of being "tax and spenders" has become "print money and spenders". How do deficit Hawks become Deficit Doves or Owls, and is there an instantaneous "tunneling" between these somewhat oppositional positions?

https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/

- Steve
Thaniks, EricS for reading and commenting on the Amy Interview I am such a benighted, naïve, stupid, optimist. I can imagine that if she were an Obama nominee, I would be saying, “We have a good one here!”

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

Yes, and not only Ugh.

The two places this bothers me as a category error are:

1. It conflates writing the rules of the game and being a player in the game. Shubik used to harp on this: that the government’s role as the declarer of monetary policy, and as the participant in fiscal policy, were roles at different levels, game designer versus large atomic player. The category isn’t quite as clean here, in that a rule targeting balanced affiliation isn’t exactly the same as playing for one side. It is a bit more like certain monkey societies, in which the problem-solver steps in on the side of whoever is being attacked to lessen the asymmetry.

But it still feels like it has a related problem, of defining an outer law (constitution or statute for structure of the court) in terms of a non-legal convention (the particular parties and how they are non-formally categorized and weighted in the society at this time), and that feels completely unstable against drift.

A more mechanism-design-y thing would be to revisit whichever Federalist Paper it was that talked about the destabilizing role of parties, never imagining the technologies for coordination that would be available to them 230 years later, and ask what the mechanism update is to the constitution in a world where instabilities toward consolidation are so extreme. Kind of the same spirit as revisiting capitalist property rights laws when a warehouser and distributor can come to own the whole economy.

2. In the Coney Barrett talk that Nick circulated, she made an important point that should be true, even if we could argue that it is a smokescreen that isn’t true in reality. She says “liberal/conservative” in regard to the interpretation of constitutional law are different categories from “liberal/conservative” as political affiliations. She probably even believes it, though I expect that her SCOTUS decisions will magically align with the political axes 100% of the time, and one must ask how that happens to always be the case.

Of course, the question is whether it is all disingenuous. Thomas Edsall had a decent article in NYT a few days ago on originalism/living-text definitions, that was right on the thread we were on. It is interesting that the opponents of each side make _exactly_ the same accusation toward it: that the side they are criticizing has no real method and is a program for rationalizing whatever outcome the judge wanted politically. To the extent that that is true in substance, if obfuscated in appearance, then Coney Barrett’s claim that they are different categories is a falsehood. One wonders then at what level of argument one could force her to acknowledge that error.

Eric.

On Oct 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then ---------

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha! I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court... add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve

On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,

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thompnickson2

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Huh!! Me too. Right in the middle of the lower left box.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

-4.75 Left -4.26 Libertarian, I don't think we've ever had a Left-Libertarian government, we're not very organized I think.

-- rec --

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 6:19 PM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Pretty much on the diagonal, about 3/8 of the way from the center to the lower-left corner. Not very extreme, but like many of you, L-L.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by George Duncan-2

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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thompnickson2

Re: Political compass teest

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Political compass teest

Same as everyone else

https://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass?ec=-4.25&soc=-4.62

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:57 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: labels

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Never did sound like nonsense to me. I do think the scaling problems are large for most variables.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:12 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank -

Yes to both... attempting a formal mapping, but speaking loosely by metaphor, awaiting that formulation...

Left/Right is discussed/expressed as a dimension. But I think we all can agree that the political domain is in fact, higher dimensional than that, and that our rhetoric projects dozens of issues onto that single dimension.

I accept that it may be hard to put a metric on these dimensions, or to agree on the metric (or dimensions). I would suspect that political scientists *do* have metrics and dimensions, but the ones I use anecdotally are simply my own wild-ass guesses. I believe the anecdotally identified dimensions are at least *orderable* if not *metrizeable*...

Does this still sound like nonsense?

- Steve

On 10/10/20 12:43 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
Wait, what? Eigenvectors are properties of a linear transformation from a space to itself. What's the space and what's the linear transformation? Principal components analysis is a method of spanning a space of variables with one of lower dimension.

Or are you speaking metaphorically?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 12:27 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marcus -

(in mild agreement/acknowledgement of your point as I understand it)

I suppose my own biases about human nature are that we are driven along an internal greed/fear axis which is then "weaponized" by the politicos.   The Right seems particularly adept at both, while impugning the Left as if they are the ones playing those trump (Trump?) cards...

Other axes such as equality/equanimity,   group loyalty/deference to authority, etc.   seem *somewhat* orthogonal..

I suspect the terms "Progressive" and "Conservative" don't really capture what is actually exhibited/explored by the Left/Right tug-of war.   I know that as I have aged/matured/evolved I've become *much* more socially progressive whilst feeling much more conservative about progress itself... not trusting the headlong rush we are on, while acknowledging that it is (somewhat) inevitable.

Following the arc of SteveG's ideas about collective intelligence, least/stationary action, bidirectional path-tracing as a paradigm that eclipses or replaces or maybe subsumes (neo) Darwinism and Paternalism, I also feel that we are overdue for some fundamental refactoring of our collective models/paradigms.   I'm no more interested in the style of Pol Pot's Communism than I am in Hitler's Fascism or Stalin's Fascism-disguised-as-Socialism than I am in Trump's variants on the same.   They seem like they are all aberrant excursions into a highly compressed (projection) subspace that is at best a *shadow* of what is really needed/possible.

- Steve

On 10/10/20 11:37 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
My model is that people lean left and right as a developmental aspect of personality, and the parties mimic but also manipulate those patterns. People really must be gamed and manipulated by politicians because even the best-intentioned people are often ignorant of the complexity of the population and the practicalities of governance. Worse, many people are blamers who have nothing to add beyond What’s In It For Me.

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 9:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

Nick-

Not trying to ding you personally for this, but this kind of blind deference to authority/party/tribe/loyalty is one of the mechanisms I'm trying to tease a part with Marcus' reference to the Left/Right *dominant* component as an inevitability? And I *think* EricC's questioning of that assumption?

How *do* our political parties "precess" in higher dimensional space such that the subdominant components can "flip" entirely... how did the party of Lincoln Republicans who rejected secession and abolished Slavery and their opposition which had a strong component of what became formally the Dixiecrats, effectively flip positions? The party that accused (accuses?) their opposition of being "tax and spenders" has become "print money and spenders". How do deficit Hawks become Deficit Doves or Owls, and is there an instantaneous "tunneling" between these somewhat oppositional positions?

https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/

- Steve
Thaniks, EricS for reading and commenting on the Amy Interview I am such a benighted, naïve, stupid, optimist. I can imagine that if she were an Obama nominee, I would be saying, “We have a good one here!”

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

Yes, and not only Ugh.

The two places this bothers me as a category error are:

1. It conflates writing the rules of the game and being a player in the game. Shubik used to harp on this: that the government’s role as the declarer of monetary policy, and as the participant in fiscal policy, were roles at different levels, game designer versus large atomic player. The category isn’t quite as clean here, in that a rule targeting balanced affiliation isn’t exactly the same as playing for one side. It is a bit more like certain monkey societies, in which the problem-solver steps in on the side of whoever is being attacked to lessen the asymmetry.

But it still feels like it has a related problem, of defining an outer law (constitution or statute for structure of the court) in terms of a non-legal convention (the particular parties and how they are non-formally categorized and weighted in the society at this time), and that feels completely unstable against drift.

A more mechanism-design-y thing would be to revisit whichever Federalist Paper it was that talked about the destabilizing role of parties, never imagining the technologies for coordination that would be available to them 230 years later, and ask what the mechanism update is to the constitution in a world where instabilities toward consolidation are so extreme. Kind of the same spirit as revisiting capitalist property rights laws when a warehouser and distributor can come to own the whole economy.

2. In the Coney Barrett talk that Nick circulated, she made an important point that should be true, even if we could argue that it is a smokescreen that isn’t true in reality. She says “liberal/conservative” in regard to the interpretation of constitutional law are different categories from “liberal/conservative” as political affiliations. She probably even believes it, though I expect that her SCOTUS decisions will magically align with the political axes 100% of the time, and one must ask how that happens to always be the case.

Of course, the question is whether it is all disingenuous. Thomas Edsall had a decent article in NYT a few days ago on originalism/living-text definitions, that was right on the thread we were on. It is interesting that the opponents of each side make _exactly_ the same accusation toward it: that the side they are criticizing has no real method and is a program for rationalizing whatever outcome the judge wanted politically. To the extent that that is true in substance, if obfuscated in appearance, then Coney Barrett’s claim that they are different categories is a falsehood. One wonders then at what level of argument one could force her to acknowledge that error.

Eric.

On Oct 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then ---------

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha! I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court... add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve

On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Well some of you only seem to be -4. At least I’m below -6 on both.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:57 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

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Prof David West

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Econ left/right: -0.88

Social Lib/Auth: -6.1

davew

NOT a Libertarian

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Russ Abbott

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I came out closer to the center than to the corner because I never checked "Strongly Agree." "Agree" always seemed good enough.

"Strongly Agree" strikes me as being similar to "AGREE!" which just seems too loud to me.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:23 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well some of you only seem to be -4. At least I’m below -6 on both.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:57 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Russ Abbott

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by Prof David West

I'm surprised that Biden is shown between the center of the upper-right quadrant and the upper- right corner. Where did they get that?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:39 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Econ left/right: -0.88
Social Lib/Auth: -6.1

davew
NOT a Libertarian

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

I agree.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 6:40 PM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

I came out closer to the center than to the corner because I never checked "Strongly Agree." "Agree" always seemed good enough.

"Strongly Agree" strikes me as being similar to "AGREE!" which just seems too loud to me.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:23 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well some of you only seem to be -4. At least I’m below -6 on both.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:57 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Steve Smith

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I'm clocking in at 7 to left and 6 to the anarchistic (down), but find this kind of "test" is prone to conflating things I don't like to conflate. Even Myers-Briggs with 4 and Enneagrams with 7? have too much of that going on IMO.

I also don't think this is calibrated well, nor is it necessarily a linear metric. Not trying to dismiss or abuse it, just noting that it all deserves some normalization.

I also find that these fit my *personal preferences* for how *I* want to live, not necessarily my preferences for how *everyone else* should live. I know a LOT of people who feel a lot safer if they in an authoritarian matrix... it gives them some kind of security to have a person, a party, an ideology to defer to. I also prefer to be a lot more generous with others than I think a lot of people naturally do (and more than I once did myself)... it helps if I know them or at least have met them in person, but I'm not particularly against a whole world full of people who are getting their needs met, either through enlightened, individual self-actualization or participation in a somewhat more herd/pack/tribe/hive model for meeting those needs. My inner-complexicist gives extra points for a spectrum of diversity and scale... rugged anarcho-primitivists all the way to near-hive-like naked-mole-rat communes. Though I suppose I'd rather have a beer (mead brewed in a hole in a rock?) with the former than the latter.

If I had a stronger inner-authoritarian I would probably contradictorally dictate to all that they must choose an entirely anarchistic life which was simultaneously also extremely generous and accepting of others...

I also wonder how most of us would clock in if/when/as we had less privilege... it might be possible that the privilege of being a member of the first world, most of us male, most of us nominally "white". We might find that if we got caught more often between push and shove, we might seek a more authoritarian matrix where nobody else could force their personal will on us because the collective/governance will was too strong/rigid to allow for it? We also might find that if we felt like we lived in a world of true scarcity, we might not be as eager to share... we might be a little more greedy (or more aptly, desperate?)...

- Steve

Well some of you only seem to be -4. At least I’m below -6 on both.

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:57 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Steve Smith

Re: Political compass teest

I don't know how good this media-bias chart is, but I find it interesting, if not an actual meaningful artifact that there is a bit of a gap on the right side of the chart between a "little Right" and "a little Unreliable" to "very Right and Unreliable". The left seems to be more of a continuum. With "all sources" and "all articles" turned on I found an interesting gestalt. I have some beef with the way they characterize Left/Right and Reliable/Unreliable and the way some outlets are rated, but I'm (mostly) trusting that they have a methodology that is at least transparent if not one I fully agree with. But I haven't bothered to drill down much.

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart-2/

On 10/10/20 7:09 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

I'm clocking in at 7 to left and 6 to the anarchistic (down), but find this kind of "test" is prone to conflating things I don't like to conflate.   Even Myers-Briggs with 4 and Enneagrams with 7? have too much of that going on IMO.

I also don't think this is calibrated well, nor is it necessarily a linear metric.   Not trying to dismiss or abuse it, just noting that it all deserves some normalization.

I also find that these fit my *personal preferences* for how *I* want to live, not necessarily my preferences for how *everyone else* should live.   I know a LOT of people who feel a lot safer if they in an authoritarian matrix... it gives them some kind of security to have a person, a party, an ideology to defer to.   I also prefer to be a lot more generous with others than I think a lot of people naturally do (and more than I once did myself)... it helps if I know them or at least have met them in person, but I'm not particularly against a whole world full of people who are getting their needs met, either through enlightened, individual self-actualization or participation in a somewhat more herd/pack/tribe/hive model for meeting those needs.   My inner-complexicist gives extra points for a spectrum of diversity and scale... rugged anarcho-primitivists all the way to near-hive-like naked-mole-rat communes.   Though I suppose I'd rather have a beer (mead brewed in a hole in a rock?) with the former than the latter.

If I had a stronger inner-authoritarian I would probably contradictorally dictate to all that they must choose an entirely anarchistic life which was simultaneously also extremely generous and accepting of others...

I also wonder how most of us would clock in if/when/as we had less privilege... it might be possible that the privilege of being a member of the first world, most of us male, most of us nominally "white".   We might find that if we got caught more often between push and shove, we might seek a more authoritarian matrix where nobody else could force their personal will on us because the collective/governance will was too strong/rigid to allow for it? We also might find that if we felt like we lived in a world of true scarcity, we might not be as eager to share... we might be a little more greedy (or more aptly, desperate?)...

- Steve
Well some of you only seem to be -4. At least I’m below -6 on both.

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:57 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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thompnickson2

Re: Political compass teest

In reply to this post by Prof David West

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is? Something MUST be wrong, here.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Econ left/right: -0.88

Social Lib/Auth: -6.1

davew

NOT a Libertarian

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Stephen Guerin-5

Re: Political compass teest

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is? Something MUST be wrong, here.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Econ left/right: -0.88
Social Lib/Auth: -6.1

davew
NOT a Libertarian

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Political compass teest

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian. If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way. And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is? Something MUST be wrong, here.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

Econ left/right: -0.88

Social Lib/Auth: -6.1

davew

NOT a Libertarian

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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Eric Charles-2

Re: labels

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

But.... <General Social Scientist Hat On> It is a "first principal component" in our particular culture at this particular point in history. To reify it's status as the first principle component into law would make it very hard for a different dimension to come to account for a larger percentage of the variance at some point in the future. The existing power structure benefits from convincing us that it will never be the case that a different dimension could ever become so important that it deserved that level of attention, because that would legitimize parties identified primarily upon that other dimension... and such hegemonic processes should generally be viewed with suspicion (and derision).

<Libertarian Hat on> Tying to some of the other discussions, we should be suspicious of attempts by the bureaucracy to use law and regulation to mandate that social distinctions currently-important to the bureaucracy remain important into the indefinite future. Would we be better off if, for example, what if, people in the 1790's made a compromise where, by law, half of SCOTUS justices had to be "for a weak central executive" while the other half had to be justices had to be "for a strong central government". Or if people in the 1830s had come up with a compromise where, by law, half he SCOTUS justices had to be "for state rights" while the other half had to be "against slavery." My intuition is that such efforts would not have benefited society. We should not be in favor of the government engaging in such efforts, and we should scrutinize every regulatory effort to try to minimize such effects (to the extent that is practical).

[hidden email]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 1:23 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is the first principal component..

On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:40 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree that the illusion of there being only the single axis of Left/Right is a travesty.

I also intuit that my own preferences for ranked-choice-voting to *allow in* more dimensions may be naive in some way I don't fully apprehend.

I'd love for you (and others) here to explore the paradoxes and inconsistencies implied in all of this.

On 10/9/20 9:18 PM, Eric Charles wrote:
--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then ---------

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha! I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court... add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve

On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: labels

What reification into law? As culture changes, the investments of organizations can be threatened. But other opportunities arise for organizations that are quick on their feet.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 9:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 1:23 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is the first principal component..

On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:40 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree that the illusion of there being only the single axis of Left/Right is a travesty.

I also intuit that my own preferences for ranked-choice-voting to *allow in* more dimensions may be naive in some way I don't fully apprehend.

I'd love for you (and others) here to explore the paradoxes and inconsistencies implied in all of this.

On 10/9/20 9:18 PM, Eric Charles wrote:
--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then ---------

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha! I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court... add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve

On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Eric Charles-2

Re: labels

Right Now, the major dimension of U.S. politics is (appears to be?) "liberal" vs "conservative" (both in their weird modern connotations). And so, it seems like if we want a "balanced" Supreme Court, we must ensure a balance between the number of "liberal" vs. "conservative" justices. That's fine. In doing so, we are allowing for any and all amount of imbalance along the other dimensions, but Right Now, that's fine. Maybe later we will care about the balance in other dimensions, and justices will at that point have their record scrutinized in other ways.

However, such natural shifts are harder if we pass a law stating that the "liberal" vs "conservitive" dimension MUST be balanced (5 of each, for example). It would now take an act of legislation for us to start trying to balance along a different dimension, and the old-guard might be able to put that off (to their benefit) long after the political concerns of the population have shifted.

Plus, what do we make of judges who are centrist along the dimension we have declared primary? Are they ineligable for the top seats unless they "pick a side" so they can enter properly into the state-mandated accounting of who fits where?

And that's not to mention the problem of the meanings of those terms shifting over time. Recall that, out of our terrible modern political vocabulary, the term "libertarian" is the closest to the 17th and 18th century use of the term "liberal" (as in "classical liberal economics"). Regan-era conservatives in the 1960s and 1970s were pro-gun control, Eisenhower conservatives were pro-preservation of federal land, and pro enourmous infrastructure investments. Etc., etc.

Incidentally, I think that last part is key to the distinction Barrett was trying to make (whether she was disingenuous or not is another issue). Over the long term, it we might hope (for the sake of language) that "conservative" legal attitudes correspond with "conservative" political attitudes, but, at the least, the speed of focus is quite different. There are many justices that have held their ground in a point on the various continuum while the political ground shifted underneath them. The current (and recent) judges that we associate most closely with a particular political ideology all still have a healthy handful of cases in which their decisions didn't play well with the associated political parties or political base.

[hidden email]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:57 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

What reification into law? As culture changes, the investments of organizations can be threatened. But other opportunities arise for organizations that are quick on their feet.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 9:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

But.... <General Social Scientist Hat On> It is a "first principal component" in our particular culture at this particular point in history. To reify it's status as the first principle component into law would make it very hard for a different dimension to come to account for a larger percentage of the variance at some point in the future. The existing power structure benefits from convincing us that it will never be the case that a different dimension could ever become so important that it deserved that level of attention, because that would legitimize parties identified primarily upon that other dimension... and such hegemonic processes should generally be viewed with suspicion (and derision).

<Libertarian Hat on> Tying to some of the other discussions, we should be suspicious of attempts by the bureaucracy to use law and regulation to mandate that social distinctions currently-important to the bureaucracy remain important into the indefinite future. Would we be better off if, for example, what if, people in the 1790's made a compromise where, by law, half of SCOTUS justices had to be "for a weak central executive" while the other half had to be justices had to be "for a strong central government". Or if people in the 1830s had come up with a compromise where, by law, half he SCOTUS justices had to be "for state rights" while the other half had to be "against slavery." My intuition is that such efforts would not have benefited society. We should not be in favor of the government engaging in such efforts, and we should scrutinize every regulatory effort to try to minimize such effects (to the extent that is practical).
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 1:23 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is the first principal component..

On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:40 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree that the illusion of there being only the single axis of Left/Right is a travesty.

I also intuit that my own preferences for ranked-choice-voting to *allow in* more dimensions may be naive in some way I don't fully apprehend.

I'd love for you (and others) here to explore the paradoxes and inconsistencies implied in all of this.

On 10/9/20 9:18 PM, Eric Charles wrote:
--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then ---------

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha! I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court... add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve

On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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