labels

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Sure, I don’t know why I’d want that kind of law.   So long as there is this governmental mechanism, I want a liberal court, and for the left to play as dirty as the right does in order to get it.   It is an ongoing battle over how we want to live. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 10:24 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

 

Right Now, the major dimension of U.S. politics is (appears to be?) "liberal" vs "conservative" (both in their weird modern connotations). And so, it seems like if we want a "balanced" Supreme Court, we must ensure a balance between the number of "liberal" vs. "conservative" justices. That's fine. In doing so, we are allowing for any and all amount of imbalance along the other dimensions, but Right Now, that's fine. Maybe later we will care about the balance in other dimensions, and justices will at that point have their record scrutinized in other ways. 

 

However, such natural shifts are harder if we pass a law stating that the "liberal" vs "conservitive" dimension MUST be balanced (5 of each, for example). It would now take an act of legislation for us to start trying to balance along a different dimension, and the old-guard might be able to put that off (to their benefit) long after the political concerns of the population have shifted. 

 

Plus, what do we make of judges who are centrist along the dimension we have declared primary? Are they ineligable for the top seats unless they "pick a side" so they can enter properly into the state-mandated accounting of who fits where?

 

And that's not to mention the problem of the meanings of those terms shifting over time. Recall that, out of our terrible modern political vocabulary, the term "libertarian" is the closest to the 17th and 18th century use of the term "liberal" (as in "classical liberal economics"). Regan-era conservatives in the 1960s and 1970s were pro-gun control, Eisenhower conservatives were pro-preservation of federal land, and pro enourmous infrastructure investments. Etc., etc. 

 

Incidentally, I think that last part is key to the distinction Barrett was trying to make (whether she was disingenuous or not is another issue). Over the long term, it we might hope (for the sake of language) that "conservative" legal attitudes correspond with "conservative" political attitudes, but, at the least, the speed of focus is quite different. There are many justices that have held their ground in a point on the various continuum while the political ground shifted underneath them. The current (and recent) judges that we associate most closely with a particular political ideology all still have a healthy handful of cases in which their decisions didn't play well with the associated political parties or political base. 

 

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:57 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

What reification into law?    As culture changes, the investments of organizations can be threatened.    But other opportunities arise for organizations that are quick on their feet.

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 9:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] labels

 

But.... <General Social Scientist Hat On> It is a "first principal component" in our particular culture at this particular point in history. To reify it's status as the first principle component into law would make it very hard for a different dimension to come to account for a larger percentage of the variance at some point in the future. The existing power structure benefits from convincing us that it will never be the case that a different dimension could ever become so important that it deserved that level of attention, because that would legitimize parties identified primarily upon that other dimension... and such hegemonic processes should generally be viewed with suspicion (and derision). 

 

<Libertarian Hat on> Tying to some of the other discussions, we should be suspicious of attempts by the bureaucracy to use law and regulation to mandate that social distinctions currently-important to the bureaucracy remain important into the indefinite future. Would we be better off if, for example, what if, people in the 1790's made a compromise where, by law, half of SCOTUS justices had to be "for a weak central executive" while the other half had to be justices had to be "for a strong central government". Or if people in the 1830s had come up with a compromise where, by law, half he SCOTUS justices had to be "for state rights" while the other half had to be "against slavery." My intuition is that such efforts would not have benefited society. We should not be in favor of the government engaging in such efforts, and we should scrutinize every regulatory effort to try to minimize such effects (to the extent that is practical). 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 1:23 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is the first principal component..

 

On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:40 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:



I agree that the illusion of there being only the single axis of Left/Right is a travesty.  

I also intuit that my own preferences for ranked-choice-voting to *allow in* more dimensions may be naive in some way I don't fully apprehend.

I'd love for you (and others) here to explore the paradoxes and inconsistencies implied in all of this.

On 10/9/20 9:18 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

--- reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then  ---------

 

Note that one thing both parties agree on is that we should conceive politics as utterly and completely a choice between the two of them. God forbid that we conceive of judges using any other dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it in law that we must forever focus on exactly whether we have a "balance" of "left" and "right". Ugh!

 

 

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha!  I refer to the last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when
someone offers to buy me one...   the only one to twists my drinking arm
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe Stephen and his circle
on "ZoomGrappaNight".

I don't like the language around "packing the court".   I don't think
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing the court".   Clearly,
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would* pack the court...  add
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL conservative leaners.   Pete
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my earshot, and HIS version
sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he proposed 5/5) and then
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the remaining 5 (through
some arcane process?).    What the Republicans have been building up to
for decades is "packing the courts".   

Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on social norms and
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it gets", at least for
the time being.

- Steve


On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538 panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala Harris in response to Pence's question about packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was: "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I should. There is no free will. I live to serve.
>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Look what you made me do,


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[Roger Critchlow-2]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

-- rec --

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[David Eric Smith]

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

-- rec --

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[gepr]

This test is propaganda, pure and simple.

sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92

monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9

Self-reported data isn't, at all, a reliable measure. It's shocking to buttress our conversations about lacking free will, behaviorism, complexity from simple rules, stochasticity, etc. against an apparently ingrained belief that idealistic answers to a questionnaire like this are meaningful. I suppose one *might* take the approach that such a questionnaire is one tool for *biasing* near-term behavior. The recent article on whether a belief in a controlling god affects one's self-reported attitudes toward "environmental support": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167220948712?journalCode=pspc  The result is basically yes, you can manipulate thoughts with other thoughts. Does that translate AT ALL to any sort of action/behavior? Pffft.

The political compass test, I can argue, phrases their questions to bias the result toward the lower left. The difference between my sunday score and my monday score is, I think, solely in how I interpret the questions, merely altering which words would "trigger" me. Words like "sometimes" and "should" are so ... poetic ... so open to arbitrary interpretation as to be completely useless as an indicator for political positions, much less political action.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were a correlation between what you eat for breakfast and where you land on that plane. You'd need a refractory period between each response, of course, otherwise you'll simply memorize the questions and "teach to the test". Every day would be too frequent. Once a month might work, though. Once per quarter would be better. And randomized intervals would be best ... a longitudinal study over maybe 5 years. And a good study would use an upper ontology for the questions so that the wording could change each time you took it, but where each was a slightly different expression of the same concept. You'd still be biasing thought with thought, steering the subject into affinity with the ontology, but it would be easier to tease out the ephemeris from the noise.

I wonder if this is what cult leaders do implicitly ... hound their followers with "surveys" ostensibly posed to *ask*, but ulimatately designed to *steer*. AA, Synanon, and NXIVM apparently use[d] such. And I suppose Scientology's E-meter is the same type of thing. And let's not forget Socrates! If you steep yourself in Plato's rendition, you get self-righteousness. But Diogenes has the more realistic, data-driven approach.

On October 10, 2020 2:21:53 PM PDT, jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>left-libertarian.
>
>Take the test here if you are interested:
>https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>
><http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

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[Roger Critchlow-2]

It seems that what's different now is Trump's will to be the origin of the chaos that requires a strong leader.  You weren't shopping for a dictator today?  Well, let me explain why you need one.  It's marketing taken to its extreme, and the salesman just happens to be the product. Trump's negotiating techniques raised to the next level.  Is the Covid relief package on or off today?

-- rec --

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Carl Tollander]

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Stephen Guerin-5]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:26 PM Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

-4.75 Left  -4.26 Libertarian, I don't think we've ever had a Left-Libertarian government, we're not very organized I think.

What minimal coordination mechanisms might move this sub-critical population through a phase transition to an organized political movement? 

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[Frank Wimberly-2]

Trump's re-election.  Perish the thought.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:40 AM Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:26 PM Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

-4.75 Left  -4.26 Libertarian, I don't think we've ever had a Left-Libertarian government, we're not very organized I think.

What minimal coordination mechanisms might move this sub-critical population through a phase transition to an organized political movement? 

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[Steve Smith]

Speaking of regionalism...

I just listened to Ben Sasse of Nebraska (R) give his fellow Senators and those of us watching the Supreme Court Confirmation hearings a lecture on Civics.  Sasse is very articulate and earnest and gave a good case for treating this (and all Judicial appointments) independent of partisan politics and religious bias.  

Unfortunately he managed to do this without even a single *nod* to the possibility that the very nomination and rushed confirmation was partisan and that the selection of this particular nominee is acutely based in religious bias (supporting the partisan bias).

I don't know Sasse's record well, but Mary (hardcore Lefty) is a native Nebrasker and her head *can* be turned by his familiarity, style and delivery, right up until he drops an implied (but not obvious to me) conclusion that she disagrees with.  Fortunately her oldest son (who writes/edits Bills for the Texas Legislature, but also born, raised, educated in Nebrasky) is a very well read (esp. in political science) and very perceptive progressive Liberal (liberal Progressive) who talks her down from Sasse's charming deliveries, (or up and out) from the flaws (gaps?) in his rhetoric.  

For all of my resentment and distrust of politicians (esp. those trained as lawyers) I do wish I could have a one-on-one conversation with the likes of Sasse or Flake or McCain (RIP).   Maybe their apparent reasonableness and rationality and even fairness is an extremely good act, or maybe they honestly believe everything I hear them say, even though I cannot draw some of the same conclusions (or do not start from the same unspoken axioms?).

Mary and each of her children left the enfolding comfort of the western Nebraska plains and the plainspoken, folksy people whose entire livelihood is armatured around a wide variety of acutely exploitative (formerly extractive, and previously just plain hard working people teasing needed resources from the earth for their American cousins everywhere).    They left because of the parochial, narrow minded, self-serving views of the people they lived with and grew up with.   And they left behind a yet-more-impoverished (socially and spiritually if not economically)  region in the process.   They sorted themselves into various meccas of liberal thinking and being.   Mary left behind  several brothers who she had to unfriend from FaceBook, and then leave FaceBook entirely (good move in any case) to escape the echo-chamber of their Trump-trumpeting.  

On the flip side, they had the benefit of a very progressive educational system and a thin smattering of worldly and progressive thinkers in their communities...   4 year state teachers colleges cum general colleges that were not only affordable and convenient to get started with a good liberal arts educations, but staffed with very well educated, very progressive (if not always Progressive) thinkers who inspired them to think outside of the boxes they were (somewhat) raised in.   These professors/instructors were part of an extended upper-midwest educational milieu that, from my (distant) perspective seems to be top notch.   The nieces in Mary's cohort, at least seem to have come out of the same culture with a strong progressive (and Progressive) mindset.   The nephews are mostly focused on guns, guts, and glory with god's blessing.

I stumbled my way out of very similar boxes, but without (for the most part) the kind of progressive higher education system I sense that Mary had benefit of.   The Political Compass test places me pretty solidly into the Liberal/Liberatarian quadrant and I self-identify that way when I can...  while still holding a strong allergy to the most extreme (unto smarmy?) Liberal styling of arguments for their positions.   I tend to agree with many of those positions at a fundamental level, but am put off by some of the gymnastics used to justify them.  

Unfortunately I *ache* for a more reasoned discourse, and am therefore acutely susceptible to the kind of rhetoric that the likes of Sasse and Flake and others can muster...  I find myself *wanting* them to be reasonable so badly that I overlook the *gaps* in their rhetoric where they let me (and others) fill in my own blanks with my most hopeful and generous thoughts.   It seems to be some variation on the dog-whistle?   I think Trump's ambiguous (self-contradictory, rambly, ???) style feeds this well... leaving lots of people room to pretend he either doesn't really literally mean what he says, or leaving them to pick the parts of various contradictions that are convenient for their own argument, or just ignoring all the innuendos they might not like otherwise. 

I am feeling fascinated to live in these "interesting times" in spite (because?) of the stakes at hand.  Mary is now into the second volume of Klemperer's "I Will Bear Witness", a diary of a Jewish scholar married to an Aryan who survived the Nazi years, and more importantly managed to keep his diaries secreted away...  a day by day, moving testimony to just how wicked the bulk of the population of Germany could become under the acutely evil ministrations of Hitler, his malevolent cronies, and the propaganda machine they built and operated.  

The propaganda machine of the Self-Righteous Right seems as intentionally designed, but not nearly as "smooth", but maybe it is just Limbaugh and Jones, and Tucker and Sean that I am hearing in their hysterical rants.   Dave (and others) may accuse the Loonie Left's propaganda machine of being equally malevolent (to the Right's, not the Nazis') but perhaps slicker than the Right?   

- Steve

On 10/12/20 8:34 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

-- rec --

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[Steve Smith]

uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> This test is propaganda, pure and simple.
I tend to accept this proposition...
>
> sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75
> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
>
> monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75
> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9
Can you name these two humunculii who took these tests?
>
> Self-reported data isn't, at all, a reliable measure. It's shocking to buttress our conversations about lacking free will, behaviorism, complexity from simple rules, stochasticity, etc. against an apparently ingrained belief that idealistic answers to a questionnaire like this are meaningful. I suppose one *might* take the approach that such a questionnaire is one tool for *biasing* near-term behavior. The recent article on whether a belief in a controlling god affects one's self-reported attitudes toward "environmental support": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167220948712?journalCode=pspc  The result is basically yes, you can manipulate thoughts with other thoughts. Does that translate AT ALL to any sort of action/behavior? Pffft.
>
> The political compass test, I can argue, phrases their questions to bias the result toward the lower left. The difference between my sunday score and my monday score is, I think, solely in how I interpret the questions, merely altering which words would "trigger" me. Words like "sometimes" and "should" are so ... poetic ... so open to arbitrary interpretation as to be completely useless as an indicator for political positions, much less political action.
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if there were a correlation between what you eat for breakfast and where you land on that plane. You'd need a refractory period between each response, of course, otherwise you'll simply memorize the questions and "teach to the test". Every day would be too frequent. Once a month might work, though. Once per quarter would be better. And randomized intervals would be best ... a longitudinal study over maybe 5 years. And a good study would use an upper ontology for the questions so that the wording could change each time you took it, but where each was a slightly different expression of the same concept. You'd still be biasing thought with thought, steering the subject into affinity with the ontology, but it would be easier to tease out the ephemeris from the noise.
>
> I wonder if this is what cult leaders do implicitly ... hound their followers with "surveys" ostensibly posed to *ask*, but ulimatately designed to *steer*. AA, Synanon, and NXIVM apparently use[d] such. And I suppose Scientology's E-meter is the same type of thing. And let's not forget Socrates! If you steep yourself in Plato's rendition, you get self-righteousness. But Diogenes has the more realistic, data-driven approach.

From Klemperer's "Testimony" diary, there were plenty of examples where
he and his fellow Jewish friends and colleagues were presented with
various "false choices" to herd them into a corner of the Nazi's
choosing with less pushback, as well as seducing/intimidating them into
actually collaborating in their own abuse-unto-genocide.   This is how
*I* feel when dealing with most bureaucracies (government or
corporate)...  that they are very practiced at channeling me into one of
the (alarmingly small number) of predetermined outcomes they have
contrived to support *their* preferences.

I tried to self-reflect (after reading your analysis here) on what
direction or in what manner, taking this test and comparing results with
others here suggests.   Did I become *more* Liberal/Anti-Authoritarian
through the process?  Or did I react to the score I got and recalibrate
myself?   No clear answer.

- Steve

>
> On October 10, 2020 2:21:53 PM PDT, jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>> left-libertarian.
>>
>> Take the test here if you are interested:
>> https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>>
>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>
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[Steve Smith]

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[thompnickson2]

Wow, Glen.  I would hate to argue with you on a Monday.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 9:16 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

This test is propaganda, pure and simple.

sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92

monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9

Self-reported data isn't, at all, a reliable measure. It's shocking to
buttress our conversations about lacking free will, behaviorism, complexity
from simple rules, stochasticity, etc. against an apparently ingrained
belief that idealistic answers to a questionnaire like this are meaningful.
I suppose one *might* take the approach that such a questionnaire is one
tool for *biasing* near-term behavior. The recent article on whether a
belief in a controlling god affects one's self-reported attitudes toward
"environmental support":
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167220948712?journalCode=ps
pc  The result is basically yes, you can manipulate thoughts with other
thoughts. Does that translate AT ALL to any sort of action/behavior? Pffft.

The political compass test, I can argue, phrases their questions to bias the
result toward the lower left. The difference between my sunday score and my
monday score is, I think, solely in how I interpret the questions, merely
altering which words would "trigger" me. Words like "sometimes" and "should"
are so ... poetic ... so open to arbitrary interpretation as to be
completely useless as an indicator for political positions, much less
political action.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were a correlation between what you eat for
breakfast and where you land on that plane. You'd need a refractory period
between each response, of course, otherwise you'll simply memorize the
questions and "teach to the test". Every day would be too frequent. Once a
month might work, though. Once per quarter would be better. And randomized
intervals would be best ... a longitudinal study over maybe 5 years. And a
good study would use an upper ontology for the questions so that the wording
could change each time you took it, but where each was a slightly different
expression of the same concept. You'd still be biasing thought with thought,
steering the subject into affinity with the ontology, but it would be easier
to tease out the ephemeris from the noise.

I wonder if this is what cult leaders do implicitly ... hound their
followers with "surveys" ostensibly posed to *ask*, but ulimatately designed
to *steer*. AA, Synanon, and NXIVM apparently use[d] such. And I suppose
Scientology's E-meter is the same type of thing. And let's not forget
Socrates! If you steep yourself in Plato's rendition, you get
self-righteousness. But Diogenes has the more realistic, data-driven
approach.

On October 10, 2020 2:21:53 PM PDT, jon zingale <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>left-libertarian.
>
>Take the test here if you are interested:
>https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>
><http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_
>at_3.png>

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[gepr]

On 10/12/20 9:12 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
>>
>> sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75
>> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
>>
>> monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75
>> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9
> Can you name these two humunculii who took these tests?

Yes. The first one was my anarcho-syndicalist (not his buddy who thinks social democracy is reasonable, but the one who actually believes there is such a thing as "libertarian" and thinks social democracy is a stepping stone to authority). The 2nd one is a model I made of a local small business owner with whom I had an excellent, free ranging, ~3 hour discussion with on Saturday. He runs the new cider taproom in downtown Olympia, used to organize male and female sports events for some college, also runs an arcade somewhere, etc. At the start of the conversation, not knowing anything about me, he began with the standard "liberal" attitudes. By the end of it, he was revealed to be a fairly *reasonable* right winger who accepts that most people are liberal. The conversation sampled a huge space, from violence in the streets, to how to raise children, gay marriage, drinking venue strategies for attracting legislators while "in session", etc. We got along very well and agreed on almost everything. I could easily *be* him if I'd lived his life.

> I tried to self-reflect (after reading your analysis here) on what
> direction or in what manner, taking this test and comparing results with
> others here suggests.   Did I become *more* Liberal/Anti-Authoritarian
> through the process?  Or did I react to the score I got and recalibrate
> myself?   No clear answer.

The test is inherently reflective, designed to change you. I've been taking it in some form or other since college, when someone accused me of being a Libertarian and, hence, began going to their meetings. It seems closely akin to what "talk therapists" and cults do. Ask the right questions, in the right way, and you'll get the answers you want. What I find irritating is the belief that what I (or some other nutjob) *say(s)* they think/believe maps to what I (or some other nutjob) will *do*.

FWIW, I don't actually *care* that it's propaganda and influential ... I'd just like everyone to engage their executive function while being manipulated. I like my slaves to *know* they're slaves. >8^D

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[Gary Schiltz-4]

I would have thought libertarian thought would be more aligned with anarchism than with authoritarianism. 

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 11:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Carl Tollander wrote:

-9,-8.1

But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.

Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.

I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.

I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.

- Steve

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.

 

Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?

On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

Econ left/right:      -0.88

Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1

 

davew

NOT a Libertarian

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Do we all agree at an insanely high level?  Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years.  Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues

 

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University

georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: [phone]  

Mobile: [phone]

 

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

 

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

 

 

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a

left-libertarian.

 

Take the test here if you are interested:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

 

<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>

 

 

 

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[thompnickson2]

The only thing it suggested to me is that I am not as different from you-all as I expected.  Suddenly I felt in the midst of a great flock of fuzzy sheep.  I made me feel cozy.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 10:12 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> This test is propaganda, pure and simple.
I tend to accept this proposition...
>
> sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75
> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
>
> monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75
> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9
Can you name these two humunculii who took these tests?
>
> Self-reported data isn't, at all, a reliable measure. It's shocking to buttress our conversations about lacking free will, behaviorism, complexity from simple rules, stochasticity, etc. against an apparently ingrained belief that idealistic answers to a questionnaire like this are meaningful. I suppose one *might* take the approach that such a questionnaire is one tool for *biasing* near-term behavior. The recent article on whether a belief in a controlling god affects one's self-reported attitudes toward "environmental support": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167220948712?journalCode=pspc  The result is basically yes, you can manipulate thoughts with other thoughts. Does that translate AT ALL to any sort of action/behavior? Pffft.
>
> The political compass test, I can argue, phrases their questions to bias the result toward the lower left. The difference between my sunday score and my monday score is, I think, solely in how I interpret the questions, merely altering which words would "trigger" me. Words like "sometimes" and "should" are so ... poetic ... so open to arbitrary interpretation as to be completely useless as an indicator for political positions, much less political action.
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if there were a correlation between what you eat for breakfast and where you land on that plane. You'd need a refractory period between each response, of course, otherwise you'll simply memorize the questions and "teach to the test". Every day would be too frequent. Once a month might work, though. Once per quarter would be better. And randomized intervals would be best ... a longitudinal study over maybe 5 years. And a good study would use an upper ontology for the questions so that the wording could change each time you took it, but where each was a slightly different expression of the same concept. You'd still be biasing thought with thought, steering the subject into affinity with the ontology, but it would be easier to tease out the ephemeris from the noise.
>
> I wonder if this is what cult leaders do implicitly ... hound their followers with "surveys" ostensibly posed to *ask*, but ulimatately designed to *steer*. AA, Synanon, and NXIVM apparently use[d] such. And I suppose Scientology's E-meter is the same type of thing. And let's not forget Socrates! If you steep yourself in Plato's rendition, you get self-righteousness. But Diogenes has the more realistic, data-driven approach.

From Klemperer's "Testimony" diary, there were plenty of examples where he and his fellow Jewish friends and colleagues were presented with various "false choices" to herd them into a corner of the Nazi's choosing with less pushback, as well as seducing/intimidating them into actually collaborating in their own abuse-unto-genocide.   This is how
*I* feel when dealing with most bureaucracies (government or corporate)...  that they are very practiced at channeling me into one of the (alarmingly small number) of predetermined outcomes they have contrived to support *their* preferences.

I tried to self-reflect (after reading your analysis here) on what direction or in what manner, taking this test and comparing results with others here suggests.   Did I become *more* Liberal/Anti-Authoritarian through the process?  Or did I react to the score I got and recalibrate myself?   No clear answer.

- Steve

>
> On October 10, 2020 2:21:53 PM PDT, jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>> left-libertarian.
>>
>> Take the test here if you are interested:
>> https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>>
>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-1
>> 0_at_3.png>
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[thompnickson2]

Glen,

 

You get at one of the central empirical questions of Psychology:  What is the relation between what I say and what I do?  More generally, what is the relation between the information we get from a first person view and a third person view of the same person?  The question you raise about the test is interesting.  If you treat it as behavior, then it contributes to a third person view; if you treat it as self report, then it contributes to a first person view.  Am I responding to the test, or am I reporting on my response to the test? 

 

"Who knows what evil lurks in the human heart?  The

Shadow....."

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 10:41 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

 

 

 

On 10/12/20 9:12 AM, Steve Smith wrote:

> uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

>> 

>> sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75

>> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92

>> 

>> monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75

>> Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9

> Can you name these two humunculii who took these tests?

 

Yes. The first one was my anarcho-syndicalist (not his buddy who thinks social democracy is reasonable, but the one who actually believes there is such a thing as "libertarian" and thinks social democracy is a stepping stone to authority). The 2nd one is a model I made of a local small business owner with whom I had an excellent, free ranging, ~3 hour discussion with on Saturday. He runs the new cider taproom in downtown Olympia, used to organize male and female sports events for some college, also runs an arcade somewhere, etc. At the start of the conversation, not knowing anything about me, he began with the standard "liberal" attitudes. By the end of it, he was revealed to be a fairly *reasonable* right winger who accepts that most people are liberal. The conversation sampled a huge space, from violence in the streets, to how to raise children, gay marriage, drinking venue strategies for attracting legislators while "in session", etc. We got along very well and agreed on almost everything. I could easily *be* him if I'd lived his life.

 

> I tried to self-reflect (after reading your analysis here) on what

> direction or in what manner, taking this test and comparing results

> with others here suggests.   Did I become *more*

> Liberal/Anti-Authoritarian through the process?  Or did I react to the

> score I got and recalibrate myself?   No clear answer.

 

The test is inherently reflective, designed to change you. I've been taking it in some form or other since college, when someone accused me of being a Libertarian and, hence, began going to their meetings. It seems closely akin to what "talk therapists" and cults do. Ask the right questions, in the right way, and you'll get the answers you want. What I find irritating is the belief that what I (or some other nutjob) *say(s)* they think/believe maps to what I (or some other nutjob) will *do*.

 

FWIW, I don't actually *care* that it's propaganda and influential ... I'd just like everyone to engage their executive function while being manipulated. I like my slaves to *know* they're slaves. >8^D

 

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[gepr]

It is. But I had the same experience Steve had. It's why I completely stopped calling myself libertarian [⛧]. The most concrete experience was of a friend's dad, who is seriously *hard* right, believes he made himself, thinks the majority of people he meets are stupid, threatens to violently beat trans people up if they use the wrong bathroom in front of him, thinks pot smokers will quickly become heroin users, etc. We were standing in our new work space there in Portland and discussing the "green building" materials used and he suddenly exclaims "I'm more libertarian." I was shocked and seriously began questioning the meanings of words. 8^D I mean, I've always questioned the meaning of words. But that literally shocked me. I was speechless for the rest of their visit to the work space.

[⛧] I'd begun backing off the term a few years earlier when my boss accused me of being an anarchist. I limply defended the fact that I believe in *some* government, just a more dynamic government. But my limp defense just confused him. By "anarchist", he means "anarcho-capitalist" ... like all the thin techies in silly valley. He owns property in a "libertarian" gated community in the Sierra Nevada mountains. [sigh]

On 10/12/20 9:48 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> I would have thought libertarian thought would be more aligned with anarchism than with authoritarianism. 


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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Ha ha, someone broke the lock in Glen's homunculus dungeon.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 8:16 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

This test is propaganda, pure and simple.

sunday: Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92

monday: Economic Left/Right: 7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 5.9

Self-reported data isn't, at all, a reliable measure. It's shocking to buttress our conversations about lacking free will, behaviorism, complexity from simple rules, stochasticity, etc. against an apparently ingrained belief that idealistic answers to a questionnaire like this are meaningful. I suppose one *might* take the approach that such a questionnaire is one tool for *biasing* near-term behavior. The recent article on whether a belief in a controlling god affects one's self-reported attitudes toward "environmental support": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167220948712?journalCode=pspc  The result is basically yes, you can manipulate thoughts with other thoughts. Does that translate AT ALL to any sort of action/behavior? Pffft.

The political compass test, I can argue, phrases their questions to bias the result toward the lower left. The difference between my sunday score and my monday score is, I think, solely in how I interpret the questions, merely altering which words would "trigger" me. Words like "sometimes" and "should" are so ... poetic ... so open to arbitrary interpretation as to be completely useless as an indicator for political positions, much less political action.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were a correlation between what you eat for breakfast and where you land on that plane. You'd need a refractory period between each response, of course, otherwise you'll simply memorize the questions and "teach to the test". Every day would be too frequent. Once a month might work, though. Once per quarter would be better. And randomized intervals would be best ... a longitudinal study over maybe 5 years. And a good study would use an upper ontology for the questions so that the wording could change each time you took it, but where each was a slightly different expression of the same concept. You'd still be biasing thought with thought, steering the subject into affinity with the ontology, but it would be easier to tease out the ephemeris from the noise.

I wonder if this is what cult leaders do implicitly ... hound their followers with "surveys" ostensibly posed to *ask*, but ulimatately designed to *steer*. AA, Synanon, and NXIVM apparently use[d] such. And I suppose Scientology's E-meter is the same type of thing. And let's not forget Socrates! If you steep yourself in Plato's rendition, you get self-righteousness. But Diogenes has the more realistic, data-driven approach.

On October 10, 2020 2:21:53 PM PDT, jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>left-libertarian.
>
>Take the test here if you are interested:
>https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>
><http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_
>at_3.png>

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[gepr]

I know, right? And Cerberus is NOT a good shepherd. I mean, he's a good deterrent as long as he stands in the doorway. But when he heads out to do his business and the homunculi scatter, there's no good way to round 'em up again.

On 10/12/20 10:06 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Ha ha, someone broke the lock in Glen's homunculus dungeon.


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