better simulating actual FriAM
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So, Nick has lamented that the Zoom meetings don't well-simulate actual FriAM meetings, where people can self-isolate into cliques based on some tangent or other. I'd mentioned my first experience with (well-done) virtual meetings in Oz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OZ_Virtual Well, during the ALife meeting, I learned of NeosVR https://neosvr.com/, wherein a fellow dork (named Guillermo Valle) had set up a Neos VR session with some simulations and several ALify objects with which to interact. We had a great conversation about his PhD thesis and how it might relate to ALife, etc. It was very close to what it's like to actually be in another's presence, except, of course, he was some kind of lizard creature and I was a default box since I hadn't set my avatar. But, you turn to look at the VR whiteboard or the simulation GUI and his audio would shift from one ear to the other. You fly away and his voice recedes. Etc. The trouble, as always, is how difficult it is to get up and running with such a tool. Installation is easy, as it's on Steam https://store.steampowered.com/app/740250/Neos_VR/. But I was using it on the desktop (a VR setup is one dork epsilon too far for me -- though Renee' said she'd be fine if I dropped $500 for one) and it took some work to get comfortable. In any case, the stay-at-home orders and our "new reality" absolutely SCREAM for someone like SteveS to set us up a more concrete virtual world, with chairs our avatars can hook to, tattooed baristas (human-shaped or not) sporting PhDs, a little Chopin or maybe Tracy Chapman in the background, along with generic containers to house things like Pietro's COVID-19 model ... or maybe a little AgentScript or P5JS <https://github.com/processing/p5.js/>. While we were visiting the ISS world in NeosVR, Guillermo summoned up a virtual webcam and hooked us into the ALife "pub crawl" (wherein attendees logged into WhereBy and "shared" whatever alcoholic drink they preferred while yapping about whatever dorky stuff sprung to mind). Back in his world, we watched some of the archived lectures (via a youtube widget), listened to the ALife music playist), etc. all while watching his simulation play out in 3D in the middle of the room. In any case Solaria is already here! We simply haven't admitted it yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Sun -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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Glen,
I am all for SteveS doing that. My lament is not particular to zFRIAM. I get restless when the conversation isn't "real". Now, to understand what I mean by real, one has to make a distinction that Eric Berne made between pastimes and real communication. Pastimes are ways of interacting, often highly repetitive, which are vaguely dedicated to purposes like making nice, and enhancing reputations, distracting one from problems, etc., where the matters being talked about are not really central and nobody is trying to figure out anything or change anybody's mind about anything. In a real conversation, there is something explicitly that we care about, some ball that we are trying to move forward. I know lots of people like pastimes. Dozens of parties are held every year (or used to be) to which all the participants would come, hoping to engage in their favorite pastimes. Unfortunately, along with the one math gene I got from my brother, I also got one of his Asperger's genes. Such parties drive me right raving nuts. I think the best way to distinguish a pastime from a real conversation is to ask oneself, is anything at issue here, and are we actually talking about it, rather than skirting it. The only difference that zFRIAM makes is that it's impossible to split the group up, so we have to differentiate by time, say, rather than by space, if we want to have the two kinds of conversations in the same meeting. Nick Anyway, I am very grateful to you all for the help I got thinking about control systems. Accepting for the moment the distinction between the set point that the system seeks and the function that the system serves, I think we came to the conclusion that while there is no LOGICAL reason that the two could not be the same, it is usually the case that they will be found to be different. So I was half right. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 3:42 PM To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]> Subject: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM So, Nick has lamented that the Zoom meetings don't well-simulate actual FriAM meetings, where people can self-isolate into cliques based on some tangent or other. I'd mentioned my first experience with (well-done) virtual meetings in Oz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OZ_Virtual Well, during the ALife meeting, I learned of NeosVR https://neosvr.com/, wherein a fellow dork (named Guillermo Valle) had set up a Neos VR session with some simulations and several ALify objects with which to interact. We had a great conversation about his PhD thesis and how it might relate to ALife, etc. It was very close to what it's like to actually be in another's presence, except, of course, he was some kind of lizard creature and I was a default box since I hadn't set my avatar. But, you turn to look at the VR whiteboard or the simulation GUI and his audio would shift from one ear to the other. You fly away and his voice recedes. Etc. The trouble, as always, is how difficult it is to get up and running with such a tool. Installation is easy, as it's on Steam https://store.steampowered.com/app/740250/Neos_VR/. But I was using it on the desktop (a VR setup is one dork epsilon too far for me -- though Renee' said she'd be fine if I dropped $500 for one) and it took some work to get comfortable. In any case, the stay-at-home orders and our "new reality" absolutely SCREAM for someone like SteveS to set us up a more concrete virtual world, with chairs our avatars can hook to, tattooed baristas (human-shaped or not) sporting PhDs, a little Chopin or maybe Tracy Chapman in the background, along with generic containers to house things like Pietro's COVID-19 model ... or maybe a little AgentScript or P5JS <https://github.com/processing/p5.js/>. While we were visiting the ISS world in NeosVR, Guillermo summoned up a virtual webcam and hooked us into the ALife "pub crawl" (wherein attendees logged into WhereBy and "shared" whatever alcoholic drink they preferred while yapping about whatever dorky stuff sprung to mind). Back in his world, we watched some of the archived lectures (via a youtube widget), listened to the ALife music playist), etc. all while watching his simulation play out in 3D in the middle of the room. In any case Solaria is already here! We simply haven't admitted it yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Sun -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by gepr
Oh and, Glen,
At the very end you spoke of the generator/phenomenon distinction. I bet Jon a million dollars that you did NOT mean the same thing as the genotype/phenotype distinction. So. Who's your friend, here? Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 3:42 PM To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]> Subject: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM So, Nick has lamented that the Zoom meetings don't well-simulate actual FriAM meetings, where people can self-isolate into cliques based on some tangent or other. I'd mentioned my first experience with (well-done) virtual meetings in Oz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OZ_Virtual Well, during the ALife meeting, I learned of NeosVR https://neosvr.com/, wherein a fellow dork (named Guillermo Valle) had set up a Neos VR session with some simulations and several ALify objects with which to interact. We had a great conversation about his PhD thesis and how it might relate to ALife, etc. It was very close to what it's like to actually be in another's presence, except, of course, he was some kind of lizard creature and I was a default box since I hadn't set my avatar. But, you turn to look at the VR whiteboard or the simulation GUI and his audio would shift from one ear to the other. You fly away and his voice recedes. Etc. The trouble, as always, is how difficult it is to get up and running with such a tool. Installation is easy, as it's on Steam https://store.steampowered.com/app/740250/Neos_VR/. But I was using it on the desktop (a VR setup is one dork epsilon too far for me -- though Renee' said she'd be fine if I dropped $500 for one) and it took some work to get comfortable. In any case, the stay-at-home orders and our "new reality" absolutely SCREAM for someone like SteveS to set us up a more concrete virtual world, with chairs our avatars can hook to, tattooed baristas (human-shaped or not) sporting PhDs, a little Chopin or maybe Tracy Chapman in the background, along with generic containers to house things like Pietro's COVID-19 model ... or maybe a little AgentScript or P5JS <https://github.com/processing/p5.js/>. While we were visiting the ISS world in NeosVR, Guillermo summoned up a virtual webcam and hooked us into the ALife "pub crawl" (wherein attendees logged into WhereBy and "shared" whatever alcoholic drink they preferred while yapping about whatever dorky stuff sprung to mind). Back in his world, we watched some of the archived lectures (via a youtube widget), listened to the ALife music playist), etc. all while watching his simulation play out in 3D in the middle of the room. In any case Solaria is already here! We simply haven't admitted it yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Sun -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Interesting. I completely reject that dichotomy. It sounds as if he (or whoever would NOT be driven crazy by such a thing) is either 1) making some psychological mistake or 2) is executing some sort of attention-slicing algorithm. The psych mistake would be akin to thinking multi-tasking actually happens, which it does not, in anyone ... ever. >8^D So, if I give him the benefit of the doubt, I'll accuse him of (2), which I do all the time. E.g. when I got EricS's 607 page doorstop, I jumped right into the middle of chapter 7. That line of thought I am on ran its course and I'm jumping out, without finishing chapter 7, and I plan to move on to some other part. *While* doing that, I'm still reading "Ignorance" and I've read maybe 6 other papers on various different things (the most interesting was on actual vs potential infinities and whether or not we can do 2nd order math over potential infinities). That is attention-slicing. None of it stoops to "pastime". If I had such a thing as a "pastime", it would be drinking alone in my basement ... but luckily you can only do that so much before it kills you. I've heard tell of people enjoying "idle talk", "gossip", and such. But I've never experienced it ... nor would I enjoy it. On 7/17/20 3:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Now, to understand what I mean by real, one has to make a distinction that Eric Berne made between pastimes and real communication. Pastimes are ways of interacting, often highly repetitive, which are vaguely dedicated to purposes like making nice, and enhancing reputations, distracting one from problems, etc., where the matters being talked about are not really central and nobody is trying to figure out anything or change anybody's mind about anything. In a real conversation, there is something explicitly that we care about, some ball that we are trying to move forward. I know lots of people like pastimes. Dozens of parties are held every year (or used to be) to which all the participants would come, hoping to engage in their favorite pastimes. Unfortunately, along with the one math gene I got from my brother, I also got one of his Asperger's genes. Such parties drive me right raving nuts. I think the best way to distinguish a pastime from a real conversation is to ask oneself, is anything at issue here, and are we actually talking about it, rather than skirting it. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Neither! Ha! As Colleen Green mumbles: "Once you get to know me, you won't love me anymore." https://youtu.be/ankOO77de7o
You're both a little wrong and a little right. The gen-phen map is inspired by genotype-phenotype. But liberties are taken with what it can mean. In particular, I've worked with some clinicians who call any pattern they're looking for in their patients a "phenotype". It's a very loose use of the word, but it gets the job done for them. For *me*, I tend to mean *only* systems where the phenomen[on|a] exert[s] some kind of downward causation on the generators (mostly just setting constraints). Maybe I should start calling it the phen-gen map instead? On 7/17/20 4:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > At the very end you spoke of the generator/phenomenon distinction. I bet Jon a million dollars that you did NOT mean the same thing as the genotype/phenotype distinction. So. Who's your friend, here? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In a project I was working on in the 70s we said that we were trying to identify phenotypic manifestations of a genetic predisposition to develop schizophrenia. Does that work for you? --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 5:27 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: Neither! Ha! As Colleen Green mumbles: "Once you get to know me, you won't love me anymore." https://youtu.be/ankOO77de7o - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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IDK. "Manifest" is an awkward word. I think it's normally used akin to epiphenomena, which would not then constrain the things that generated it. But there's an efficacy about "manifest" that you don't get with other concepts. And effective things change the universe such that anything that happens after that must then be different. I.e. the Nth iteration should be somehow different from the (N-1)th iteration because the world is new. So, if that's what they meant by "manifestation", then yes it works for me. But if they simply mean "phenotypic exhibition" or "phenotypic indicator", then no. I wouldn't consider that a phen-gen map.
On 7/17/20 4:32 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > In a project I was working on in the 70s we said that we were trying to identify phenotypic manifestations of a genetic predisposition to develop schizophrenia. Does that work for you? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
Glen, Notice, FWIW, that the original gen-phen distinction was understood to forbid any information traveling from phen to gen. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly In a project I was working on in the 70s we said that we were trying to identify phenotypic manifestations of a genetic predisposition to develop schizophrenia. Does that work for you? --- On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 5:27 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by gepr
Wow! First, 'Hands on with the Sutton Hoo sword':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb9vTu73xmE and now Colleen Green mumbling on-stage: https://youtu.be/ankOO77de7o Wrt *The Queue*, I need to step up my recommendations game. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Nah! Your contributions to The Queue are fantastic! I watched about half of the 1st André Joyal lecture before I had to "attend" an ALife talk the other day. ... that said, a little more music and a little less math would be cool. 8^) Or maybe all music is math and vice versa.
On 7/17/20 6:18 PM, Jon Zingale wrote: > Wow! First, 'Hands on with the Sutton Hoo sword': > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb9vTu73xmE > and now Colleen Green mumbling on-stage: https://youtu.be/ankOO77de7o > Wrt *The Queue*, I need to step up my recommendations game. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
What about: genetics -> schizophrenia -> psychotic behavior -> shortened life -> fewer offspring Note that I am asking not asserting. Frank --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:35 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by gepr
Thank you for what I interpret as insights and suggestions.
Tonight, in the context of light storms and rain, I am Dj-ing for Sarah and Tycho. This afternoon, Tycho experienced a Lingual Frenectomy. I often wish to cry with him. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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Hug them for me!
n Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jon Zingale Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 9:21 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM Thank you for what I interpret as insights and suggestions. Tonight, in the context of light storms and rain, I am Dj-ing for Sarah and Tycho. This afternoon, Tycho experienced a Lingual Frenectomy. I often wish to cry with him. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by gepr
I'm kind of confused by the very first post of this discussion. Zoom DOES have the ability to split people off into groups. I'm in zoom workshops that do that fairly often (though I have never been in charge of one, so I'm not sure how it is controlled). Here an instructions page I found on the topic...
https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/206476313-Managing-breakout-rooms#:~:text=Breakout%20rooms%20allow%20you%20to,between%20sessions%20at%20any%20time. And here is a video where a teacher talks about using it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkK5WEf6xgk ----------- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist American University - Adjunct Instructor On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:42 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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Yes. We actually tried this once, during our first session, I think. It might work for situations where there could be subgroups dedicated to various functions, and it might work as a random intervention, from time to time, to shake things up. But it doesn’t have the actual flexibility of the True FRIAM Table, where you can sort of listen to two conversations at once or move from one end of the table to the other. But that wasn’t really my issue, any way. Glen and I sorted out my issue a couple of posts back. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles I'm kind of confused by the very first post of this discussion. Zoom DOES have the ability to split people off into groups. I'm in zoom workshops that do that fairly often (though I have never been in charge of one, so I'm not sure how it is controlled). Here an instructions page I found on the topic... https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/206476313-Managing-breakout-rooms#:~:text=Breakout%20rooms%20allow%20you%20to,between%20sessions%20at%20any%20time. And here is a video where a teacher talks about using it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkK5WEf6xgk
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. American University - Adjunct Instructor On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:42 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
I don't know quite how to parse this. By "original gen-phen distinction", do you simply mean DNA->RNA? What do you mean by "original"? And would reverse transcription imply information flow from phen to gen?
FWIW, when I talk about downward causation, I'm not assuming irreducible phenomena (strong emergentism). Mostly, I think of landscape change. Just to prove I am reading it [⍢], I'll cite EricS' (and Morowitz') hierarchy of matter phases, wherein as the temperature goes down, prior freezes set the context for what *could* be the case for future freezes. That's a macro thing constraining the micro thing. It doesn't seem so much to me like "information traveling" as limited freedom ... a weak kind of forcing structure. But if we talk in terms of variability/uncertainty/wiggle, then it sounds a bit like a *loss* of information. Downward causation from macro to micro might map well to a reduction in the information content of the micro. There would have to be some transient, though. Before the macro constraints were strong enough, the information content was high. After they are strong enough, the micro content is lower. Is a reduction in information, itself, information? 2nd order information? [⍢] [In]Comprehension notwithstanding. On 7/17/20 5:35 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Notice, FWIW, that the original gen-phen distinction was understood to forbid any information traveling from phen to gen. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
For me, the 3D audio has a huge impact. Like Slack, Zoom is intended for busyness, hard-core, intention, purpose driven attention. Zoom and Slack are not even a little bit *playful*. They try. But they're just not. Contrast Slack with Discord, where well-multiplexed audio groups were built in from the beginning. The focus was on hanging out with your friends while killing zombies (or each other) in a video game. And you might be able to contrast Zoom with Twitch, where Twitch content is focused on frivolity like video games, cooking, karaoke, etc. (Yes, I know Twitch is mostly parasocial broadcasting ... but not entirely.)
VR with 3D/located audio is much more dynamic. As you move your avatar away from the sound source, the power drops. You can turn your head so that the sound source goes more toward your good ear (my right ear is better than my left because of all that heavy metal blaring out of the speaker on the left door). You can start a conversation with, say, that green lizard avatar, and *very* slowly inch away from the crowd. If the green lizard also inches away from the crowd, you form a little clique where your audio is louder, but you can still hear what's coming from the crowd you moved away from. Etc. Of course, there's plenty else going on. You can have point-source light or ambient light. Your avatar can carry around a camera, mirror, speaker, microphone, even *instruments*. You can point, put on clothes, dance, etc. Anyone who claims they enjoy the "body language" of a Zoom meeting over something like a phone call or email would enjoy VR with 3D audio more as well. It solves many of the same problems. (Your avatar's mouth can even move when you speak!) To suggest that Zoom's break out rooms treat the same issues would be bizarre. On 7/19/20 9:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > But it doesn’t have the actual flexibility of the True FRIAM Table, where you can sort of listen to two conversations at once or move from one end of the table to the other. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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Fascinating. I didn’t know how advanced these tools had gotten for VR. On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:49 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: For me, the 3D audio has a huge impact. Like Slack, Zoom is intended for busyness, hard-core, intention, purpose driven attention. Zoom and Slack are not even a little bit *playful*. They try. But they're just not. Contrast Slack with Discord, where well-multiplexed audio groups were built in from the beginning. The focus was on hanging out with your friends while killing zombies (or each other) in a video game. And you might be able to contrast Zoom with Twitch, where Twitch content is focused on frivolity like video games, cooking, karaoke, etc. (Yes, I know Twitch is mostly parasocial broadcasting ... but not entirely.) - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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In reply to this post by gepr
Glen, Yes. And that is why reverse transcription was such a big deal -- Because it violates Weismann's Doctrine. I think most contemporary biologists still think that those violations are the province of the very small, but with all we know about epigenetics these days, the whole argument is starting to feel cranky and old-fashioned. When I try to think about “downward-causation” my imagination always fails. Think of four sticks, arranged in a square. They are very flimsy. Now add a fifth stick, a diagonal. The whole becomes much more sturdy, right Now, this is a clear instance of an emergent property, no? And the freedom of motion of the other four sticks has been constrained by the configuration of the whole, right? But where is “downward-causation”, here? Or choose your own example. How exactly does “downward causation” work? It puts my mental knickers in a twist. Nick. Nicholas Thompson. Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- I don't know quite how to parse this. By "original gen-phen distinction", do you simply mean DNA->RNA? What do you mean by "original"? And would reverse transcription imply information flow from phen to gen? FWIW, when I talk about downward causation, I'm not assuming irreducible phenomena (strong emergentism). Mostly, I think of landscape change. Just to prove I am reading it [⍢], I'll cite EricS' (and Morowitz') hierarchy of matter phases, wherein as the temperature goes down, prior freezes set the context for what *could* be the case for future freezes. That's a macro thing constraining the micro thing. It doesn't seem so much to me like "information traveling" as limited freedom ... a weak kind of forcing structure. But if we talk in terms of variability/uncertainty/wiggle, then it sounds a bit like a *loss* of information. Downward causation from macro to micro might map well to a reduction in the information content of the micro. There would have to be some transient, though. Before the macro constraints were strong enough, the information content was high. After they are strong enough, the micro content is lower. Is a reduction in information, itself, information? 2nd order information? [⍢] [In]Comprehension notwithstanding. On 7/17/20 5:35 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Notice, FWIW, that the original gen-phen distinction was understood to forbid any information traveling from phen to gen. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: better simulating actual FriAM
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Maybe I am misremembering (which clearly happens), but didn't the discussion
of gen-phen-like maps arise in the context of goal-function distinctions? In this latter class, we included the thermostat system where constraining systems to Weismann's doctrine would not be meaningful. Clearly, in the goal-function system, an individual that changes the thermostat dial because they prefer the house to be at 60 degrees rather than 80 degrees (a variation on function) performs downwardly to affect the tolerance of the piece of metal or mercury switch (a variation on goal). Are we breaking the semantic game by now demanding that our admissable gen-phen-like maps preserve Weismann's doctrine? I understood Glen's evocation to not be so constrained. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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