Friam

War has been declared

Classic

List

Threaded

29 messages Options

Douglas Roberts-2

War has been declared

Dear fellow FRIAMers,

Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET, Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384 other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.

This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass when I get pissed off.

And I am pissed off.

--Doug

______________________________

I admit it up front. I want to take $399 out of the hide of Newegg.com. Here's why:

I purchased a refurbished Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 laptop from Newegg 4 weeks ago, for -- you guessed it -- $399. The laptop arrived three days later, and I installed Kubuntu 9.10 on it. No muss, no fuss, no hitches. Everything worked, right out of the box: wireless, graphics, the whole shebang.

Well, apparently everything worked. The laptop was a birthday present for my wife, you see. So the first thing she asked for was for me to install Skype on it so she could make video calls to her daughter.

No problem, says I. Presto, Skype got installed. Oops, the picture is upside down. This laptop was manufactured/assembled with the webcam installed 180 degrees out of whack!

Well, ok. I guess. There's a Video For Linux patch just for this situation. So I installed the patch (a library to pre-load prior to running apps that use webcam). Alrighty, the webcam video is no longer upside down in Skype. I handed the laptop back to my wife.

Day two: the wife says, "My laptop locked up." I asked her what she had been doing at the time. "Moving the mouse."

Oh, oh, this isn't right. The Asus K50 is running an Intel T4200 dual-core processor and the Intel 4500 graphics chipset. The Linux Intel graphics drivers are pretty solid. In fact, I've installed Kubuntu 9.10 on several nearly identical Acer T4200 laptops with the 4500 chipset, and they are all rock solid under some pretty heavy-duty use.

So, I installed the very latest Kubuntu update, which brought the kernel and modules up to version 2.6.31-19, and handed the laptop back to my wife. Again.

No go. Three - four times a day the machine just locked up. Randomly. Hard. Power cycle required to reboot.

So now I go to the intertubes to do some research (I know, I know) and discover [careful, big surprise coming] that the Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 machines had the webcam installed upside down at the factory. Oh, and they randomly lock up several times a day. Linux, Vista, XP. Whatever. They lock up. There's a reason that so many "refurbished" units of this model are up for sale.

Clearly an unsatisfactory situation. So I contacted Newegg and explained that I was unhappy with the defective laptop they had sold me. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the nice lady approved my RMA refund request and sent me a free UPS return label for me to use to ship the laptop back.

Not to shabby, I thought. This kind of service is why I have been a good Newegg customer for the past 7 years. Spending about $2,000 - $3,000 per year. For seven years. At Newegg.

Oops, not so fast. [I bet some of you saw this coming.] See the email I just received from Newegg:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thanks again for shopping at Newegg.com.

We recently received your RMA and your return was then sent to our Inspections Department for closer examination.

Incomplete return

User changed OS to Linux Kubuntu
System has been modified/altered original manufacturers operating system has been removed cannot access restore partition, this voids Newegg warranty. Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received.

RMA denied return to customer

Because Newegg would be facing a loss if we were to replace this item, we are returning the product to you and recommending that you contact the manufacturer directly to request that they repair or replace the item under your manufacturer's warranty. Please visit the following link to view a listing of all the manufacturers whose products we carry: http://www.newegg.com/app/contactmanufacturer.asp?DEPA=0

Kindest regards,

Newegg.com
RMA Inspections Department

[hidden email]
http://www.newegg.com

This email was sent from Newegg's Automated Email System so please do not reply.

That's right: I installed Linux on the laptop, and therefore Newegg is not going to honor my refund.

Need I say more? Newegg is now on record as a vendor from whom you purchase at your own risk. They have demonstrated that they will knowingly sell defective hardware, and not honor refund requests on same.

A very good way to go out of business, in my opinion.

Buyer beware.

______________________________

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: War has been declared

All,

I have occasionally been of the mind to take this sort of revenge on a corporation, but don't have the technical know how (or the--um --guts) to do so. But that hasn't kept me from worrying about the consequences of acting with explicit MALICE against any organization with lawyers.

Is there a hazard here? Should Doug be putting all his assets into an irrevocable trust for his parrots before he takes on newegg?

Just wondering.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/18/2010 4:56:57 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] War has been declared

Dear fellow FRIAMers,

Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET, Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384 other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.

This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass when I get pissed off.

And I am pissed off.

--Doug

______________________________

I admit it up front. I want to take $399 out of the hide of Newegg.com. Here's why:

I purchased a refurbished Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 laptop from Newegg 4 weeks ago, for -- you guessed it -- $399. The laptop arrived three days later, and I installed Kubuntu 9.10 on it. No muss, no fuss, no hitches. Everything worked, right out of the box: wireless, graphics, the whole shebang.

Well, apparently everything worked. The laptop was a birthday present for my wife, you see. So the first thing she asked for was for me to install Skype on it so she could make video calls to her daughter.

No problem, says I. Presto, Skype got installed. Oops, the picture is upside down. This laptop was manufactured/assembled with the webcam installed 180 degrees out of whack!

Well, ok. I guess. There's a Video For Linux patch just for this situation. So I installed the patch (a library to pre-load prior to running apps that use webcam). Alrighty, the webcam video is no longer upside down in Skype. I handed the laptop back to my wife.

Day two: the wife says, "My laptop locked up." I asked her what she had been doing at the time. "Moving the mouse."

Oh, oh, this isn't right. The Asus K50 is running an Intel T4200 dual-core processor and the Intel 4500 graphics chipset. The Linux Intel graphics drivers are pretty solid. In fact, I've installed Kubuntu 9.10 on several nearly identical Acer T4200 laptops with the 4500 chipset, and they are all rock solid under some pretty heavy-duty use.

So, I installed the very latest Kubuntu update, which brought the kernel and modules up to version 2.6.31-19, and handed the laptop back to my wife. Again.

No go. Three - four times a day the machine just locked up. Randomly. Hard. Power cycle required to reboot.

So now I go to the intertubes to do some research (I know, I know) and discover [careful, big surprise coming] that the Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 machines had the webcam installed upside down at the factory. Oh, and they randomly lock up several times a day. Linux, Vista, XP. Whatever. They lock up. There's a reason that so many "refurbished" units of this model are up for sale.

Clearly an unsatisfactory situation. So I contacted Newegg and explained that I was unhappy with the defective laptop they had sold me. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the nice lady approved my RMA refund request and sent me a free UPS return label for me to use to ship the laptop back.

Not to shabby, I thought. This kind of service is why I have been a good Newegg customer for the past 7 years. Spending about $2,000 - $3,000 per year. For seven years. At Newegg.

Oops, not so fast. [I bet some of you saw this coming.] See the email I just received from Newegg:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thanks again for shopping at Newegg.com.

We recently received your RMA and your return was then sent to our Inspections Department for closer examination.

Incomplete return

User changed OS to Linux Kubuntu

System has been modified/altered original manufacturers operating system has been removed cannot access restore partition, this voids Newegg warranty. Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received.

RMA denied return to customer

Because Newegg would be facing a loss if we were to replace this item, we are returning the product to you and recommending that you contact the manufacturer directly to request that they repair or replace the item under your manufacturer's warranty. Please visit the following link to view a listing of all the manufacturers whose products we carry: http://www.newegg.com/app/contactmanufacturer.asp?DEPA=0

Kindest regards,

Newegg.com

RMA Inspections Department

[hidden email]

http://www.newegg.com

This email was sent from Newegg's Automated Email System so please do not reply.

That's right: I installed Linux on the laptop, and therefore Newegg is not going to honor my refund.

Need I say more? Newegg is now on record as a vendor from whom you purchase at your own risk. They have demonstrated that they will knowingly sell defective hardware, and not honor refund requests on same.

A very good way to go out of business, in my opinion.

Buyer beware.

______________________________

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

Let them come after me. PLEASE let them come after me. It will cost them buckets of money. I will make them wish they had given me several free replacement laptops instead of going the sleazeball route.

BTW, the first sorta-semi-major on-line Linux journal will have my piece published sometime tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

--Doug

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

All,

I have occasionally been of the mind to take this sort of revenge on a corporation, but don't have the technical know how (or the--um --guts) to do so. But that hasn't kept me from worrying about the consequences of acting with explicit MALICE against any organization with lawyers.

Is there a hazard here? Should Doug be putting all his assets into an irrevocable trust for his parrots before he takes on newegg?

Just wondering.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/18/2010 4:56:57 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] War has been declared

Dear fellow FRIAMers,

Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET, Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384 other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.

This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass when I get pissed off.

And I am pissed off.

--Doug

______________________________

I admit it up front. I want to take $399 out of the hide of Newegg.com. Here's why:

I purchased a refurbished Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 laptop from Newegg 4 weeks ago, for -- you guessed it -- $399. The laptop arrived three days later, and I installed Kubuntu 9.10 on it. No muss, no fuss, no hitches. Everything worked, right out of the box: wireless, graphics, the whole shebang.

Well, apparently everything worked. The laptop was a birthday present for my wife, you see. So the first thing she asked for was for me to install Skype on it so she could make video calls to her daughter.

No problem, says I. Presto, Skype got installed. Oops, the picture is upside down. This laptop was manufactured/assembled with the webcam installed 180 degrees out of whack!

Well, ok. I guess. There's a Video For Linux patch just for this situation. So I installed the patch (a library to pre-load prior to running apps that use webcam). Alrighty, the webcam video is no longer upside down in Skype. I handed the laptop back to my wife.

Day two: the wife says, "My laptop locked up." I asked her what she had been doing at the time. "Moving the mouse."

Oh, oh, this isn't right. The Asus K50 is running an Intel T4200 dual-core processor and the Intel 4500 graphics chipset. The Linux Intel graphics drivers are pretty solid. In fact, I've installed Kubuntu 9.10 on several nearly identical Acer T4200 laptops with the 4500 chipset, and they are all rock solid under some pretty heavy-duty use.

So, I installed the very latest Kubuntu update, which brought the kernel and modules up to version 2.6.31-19, and handed the laptop back to my wife. Again.

No go. Three - four times a day the machine just locked up. Randomly. Hard. Power cycle required to reboot.

So now I go to the intertubes to do some research (I know, I know) and discover [careful, big surprise coming] that the Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 machines had the webcam installed upside down at the factory. Oh, and they randomly lock up several times a day. Linux, Vista, XP. Whatever. They lock up. There's a reason that so many "refurbished" units of this model are up for sale.

Clearly an unsatisfactory situation. So I contacted Newegg and explained that I was unhappy with the defective laptop they had sold me. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the nice lady approved my RMA refund request and sent me a free UPS return label for me to use to ship the laptop back.

Not to shabby, I thought. This kind of service is why I have been a good Newegg customer for the past 7 years. Spending about $2,000 - $3,000 per year. For seven years. At Newegg.

Oops, not so fast. [I bet some of you saw this coming.] See the email I just received from Newegg:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thanks again for shopping at Newegg.com.

We recently received your RMA and your return was then sent to our Inspections Department for closer examination.

Incomplete return

User changed OS to Linux Kubuntu

System has been modified/altered original manufacturers operating system has been removed cannot access restore partition, this voids Newegg warranty. Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received.

RMA denied return to customer

Because Newegg would be facing a loss if we were to replace this item, we are returning the product to you and recommending that you contact the manufacturer directly to request that they repair or replace the item under your manufacturer's warranty. Please visit the following link to view a listing of all the manufacturers whose products we carry: http://www.newegg.com/app/contactmanufacturer.asp?DEPA=0

Kindest regards,

Newegg.com

RMA Inspections Department

[hidden email]

http://www.newegg.com

This email was sent from Newegg's Automated Email System so please do not reply.

That's right: I installed Linux on the laptop, and therefore Newegg is not going to honor my refund.

Need I say more? Newegg is now on record as a vendor from whom you purchase at your own risk. They have demonstrated that they will knowingly sell defective hardware, and not honor refund requests on same.

A very good way to go out of business, in my opinion.

Buyer beware.

______________________________

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

BTW^2, that's in addition to the ~200,000 readership represented by the 6 Linux-related Facebook sites upon which I've already placed a link to the story. This one Linux Facebook page alone has 167,488 fans:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Linux/13932695724?ref=search&sid=1409214828.2450605903..1

Link to the Newegg story:

http://www.parrot-farm.net/Newegg/Newegg.com%20Horror%20Story.html

Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts -- Joe Friday, Dragnet. Well, actually the quote really comes from the Stan Freberg parody St. George and the Dragonet, but you get the picture.

BTW, the first sorta-semi-major on-line Linux journal will have my piece published sometime tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

--Doug

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

All,

I have occasionally been of the mind to take this sort of revenge on a corporation, but don't have the technical know how (or the--um --guts) to do so. But that hasn't kept me from worrying about the consequences of acting with explicit MALICE against any organization with lawyers.

Is there a hazard here? Should Doug be putting all his assets into an irrevocable trust for his parrots before he takes on newegg?

Just wondering.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/18/2010 4:56:57 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] War has been declared

Dear fellow FRIAMers,

Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET, Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384 other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.

This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass when I get pissed off.

And I am pissed off.

--Doug

______________________________

I admit it up front. I want to take $399 out of the hide of Newegg.com. Here's why:

I purchased a refurbished Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 laptop from Newegg 4 weeks ago, for -- you guessed it -- $399. The laptop arrived three days later, and I installed Kubuntu 9.10 on it. No muss, no fuss, no hitches. Everything worked, right out of the box: wireless, graphics, the whole shebang.

Well, apparently everything worked. The laptop was a birthday present for my wife, you see. So the first thing she asked for was for me to install Skype on it so she could make video calls to her daughter.

No problem, says I. Presto, Skype got installed. Oops, the picture is upside down. This laptop was manufactured/assembled with the webcam installed 180 degrees out of whack!

Well, ok. I guess. There's a Video For Linux patch just for this situation. So I installed the patch (a library to pre-load prior to running apps that use webcam). Alrighty, the webcam video is no longer upside down in Skype. I handed the laptop back to my wife.

Day two: the wife says, "My laptop locked up." I asked her what she had been doing at the time. "Moving the mouse."

Oh, oh, this isn't right. The Asus K50 is running an Intel T4200 dual-core processor and the Intel 4500 graphics chipset. The Linux Intel graphics drivers are pretty solid. In fact, I've installed Kubuntu 9.10 on several nearly identical Acer T4200 laptops with the 4500 chipset, and they are all rock solid under some pretty heavy-duty use.

So, I installed the very latest Kubuntu update, which brought the kernel and modules up to version 2.6.31-19, and handed the laptop back to my wife. Again.

No go. Three - four times a day the machine just locked up. Randomly. Hard. Power cycle required to reboot.

So now I go to the intertubes to do some research (I know, I know) and discover [careful, big surprise coming] that the Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 machines had the webcam installed upside down at the factory. Oh, and they randomly lock up several times a day. Linux, Vista, XP. Whatever. They lock up. There's a reason that so many "refurbished" units of this model are up for sale.

Clearly an unsatisfactory situation. So I contacted Newegg and explained that I was unhappy with the defective laptop they had sold me. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the nice lady approved my RMA refund request and sent me a free UPS return label for me to use to ship the laptop back.

Not to shabby, I thought. This kind of service is why I have been a good Newegg customer for the past 7 years. Spending about $2,000 - $3,000 per year. For seven years. At Newegg.

Oops, not so fast. [I bet some of you saw this coming.] See the email I just received from Newegg:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thanks again for shopping at Newegg.com.

We recently received your RMA and your return was then sent to our Inspections Department for closer examination.

Incomplete return

User changed OS to Linux Kubuntu

System has been modified/altered original manufacturers operating system has been removed cannot access restore partition, this voids Newegg warranty. Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received.

RMA denied return to customer

Because Newegg would be facing a loss if we were to replace this item, we are returning the product to you and recommending that you contact the manufacturer directly to request that they repair or replace the item under your manufacturer's warranty. Please visit the following link to view a listing of all the manufacturers whose products we carry: http://www.newegg.com/app/contactmanufacturer.asp?DEPA=0

Kindest regards,

Newegg.com

RMA Inspections Department

[hidden email]

http://www.newegg.com

This email was sent from Newegg's Automated Email System so please do not reply.

That's right: I installed Linux on the laptop, and therefore Newegg is not going to honor my refund.

Need I say more? Newegg is now on record as a vendor from whom you purchase at your own risk. They have demonstrated that they will knowingly sell defective hardware, and not honor refund requests on same.

A very good way to go out of business, in my opinion.

Buyer beware.

______________________________

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

James Steiner

Re: War has been declared

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

The admission of total technical incompetence on the part of the
refurb team is stunning.

Also: I wonder if the attorney's general would be interested in this.
The letter seems to be an admission that Newegg intends to simply take
this defective machine, restore the user partition to the OEM default
and *resell* it. Indeed, since they admit to being technically
incompetent to:

1. restore the disk from an OEM restore disk (assuming ASUS, like
DELL, provides one)
or
2. restore the disk from a disk image of a known working fresh OEM disk

and seem only to be able to restore the user partition from a restore
partition...

... I don't see how they could possibly be competent to refurb the
hardware enough to remove the errors that prompted your return.

So their letter appears on its face to be an admission that Newegg
intends to defraud customers by selling broken product over and over,
hoping at some point a buyer will just suck up the problems and not
return things.

Wow. Give 'em hell!

~~James

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear fellow FRIAMers,
> Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening
> salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with
> their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance
> copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last
> chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they
> might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET,
> Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux
> Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384
> other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine
> (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.
> This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass
> when I get pissed off.
> And I am pissed off.
> --Doug

[snip]

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

The coverage of this issue in the broader realm of the innertubes has begun:

http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2010021900935OSBZHW

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 4:30 AM, James Steiner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The admission of total technical incompetence on the part of the
refurb team is stunning.

Also: I wonder if the attorney's general would be interested in this.
The letter seems to be an admission that Newegg intends to simply take
this defective machine, restore the user partition to the OEM default
and *resell* it. Indeed, since they admit to being technically
incompetent to:

1. restore the disk from an OEM restore disk (assuming ASUS, like
DELL, provides one)
or
2. restore the disk from a disk image of a known working fresh OEM disk

and seem only to be able to restore the user partition from a restore
partition...

... I don't see how they could possibly be competent to refurb the
hardware enough to remove the errors that prompted your return.

So their letter appears on its face to be an admission that Newegg
intends to defraud customers by selling broken product over and over,
hoping at some point a buyer will just suck up the problems and not
return things.

Wow. Give 'em hell!

~~James

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Dear fellow FRIAMers,
> Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening
> salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with
> their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance
> copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last
> chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they
> might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET,
> Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux
> Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384
> other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine
> (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.
> This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass
> when I get pissed off.
> And I am pissed off.
> --Doug

[snip]

Steve Smith

Re: War has been declared

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Jihad Doug -

I am sympathetic to your plight and I wish you well on your Jihad. Until it plays out a little further, I will assume "NewEgg is a BadEgg".

That said, I have a few observations:

Bargains usually aren't. This trips me every time I find/seek/indulge-in one. I think it is a feature of our "free market" that someone is always waiting to slip us a mickey of some kind (at a discount of course). This is the reason I don't trust refurbed equipment... not because I "deserve" new or fear that they did a bad job on the refurb, but rather that there might be a taste of lemon in the product that is below some threshold (but above mine).
I have seen others who have used the mouthpiece of our emergent "citizen-media" to take on big corps in similar situations. I only have point-samples in the distribution which seems to range from those who merely embarrass themselves to those who have an effect not unlike winning a class-action suit. On face value, your "case" sounds mostly solid but probably lies somewhere in between. This one poorly handled product is not enough to blemish them much by itself. If there is a pattern to selling lemon-scented products, maybe this will be the one that takes them down.
I'm glad to hear NewEgg has come through for you for many years... that alone is amazing. I have little reason to expect them to be this good in the first place, much less remain so. It seems to be the nature of fictitious people (corporations) to develop credibility (or not) to a certain point and then spend a long period on "profit taking". The turning point is often a change in ownership or management. The point is that if NewEgg has gone from credibility-building to profit-taking, your voice will be lost in the hubbub of all the other disgruntled customers they might very well be generating right now.
There is great satisfaction to be had in "vengeance", even though it usually costs the "avenger" more to get it than the magnitude of the original harm.
I hope NewEgg is merely having a bad moment and that some (human) will field your complaints/warnings and "do the right thing". Your "expose" was well enough worded and polite that I think it is a service to the community. Even if NewEgg comes through in short order, the "Caveat Emptor" suggested at several levels will be useful to many.

Per Nick's comments... I doubt NewEgg would respond with any legal action. I believe you are not being either slanderous or libelous, merely contentious.

We'll be waiting with 'bated breath as the saga unfolds. Meanwhile don't fly any planes into the NewEgg corporate HQ without consulting me... I have some alternatives you might consider.

- Steve

All,

I have occasionally been of the mind to take this sort of revenge on a corporation, but don't have the technical know how (or the--um --guts) to do so. But that hasn't kept me from worrying about the consequences of acting with explicit MALICE against any organization with lawyers.

Is there a hazard here? Should Doug be putting all his assets into an irrevocable trust for his parrots before he takes on newegg?

Just wondering.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/18/2010 4:56:57 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] War has been declared

Dear fellow FRIAMers,

Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET, Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384 other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.

This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass when I get pissed off.

And I am pissed off.

--Doug

______________________________

I admit it up front. I want to take $399 out of the hide of Newegg.com. Here's why:

I purchased a refurbished Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 laptop from Newegg 4 weeks ago, for -- you guessed it -- $399. The laptop arrived three days later, and I installed Kubuntu 9.10 on it. No muss, no fuss, no hitches. Everything worked, right out of the box: wireless, graphics, the whole shebang.

Well, apparently everything worked. The laptop was a birthday present for my wife, you see. So the first thing she asked for was for me to install Skype on it so she could make video calls to her daughter.

No problem, says I. Presto, Skype got installed. Oops, the picture is upside down. This laptop was manufactured/assembled with the webcam installed 180 degrees out of whack!

Well, ok. I guess. There's a Video For Linux patch just for this situation. So I installed the patch (a library to pre-load prior to running apps that use webcam). Alrighty, the webcam video is no longer upside down in Skype. I handed the laptop back to my wife.

Day two: the wife says, "My laptop locked up." I asked her what she had been doing at the time. "Moving the mouse."

Oh, oh, this isn't right. The Asus K50 is running an Intel T4200 dual-core processor and the Intel 4500 graphics chipset. The Linux Intel graphics drivers are pretty solid. In fact, I've installed Kubuntu 9.10 on several nearly identical Acer T4200 laptops with the 4500 chipset, and they are all rock solid under some pretty heavy-duty use.

So, I installed the very latest Kubuntu update, which brought the kernel and modules up to version 2.6.31-19, and handed the laptop back to my wife. Again.

No go. Three - four times a day the machine just locked up. Randomly. Hard. Power cycle required to reboot.

So now I go to the intertubes to do some research (I know, I know) and discover [careful, big surprise coming] that the Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 machines had the webcam installed upside down at the factory. Oh, and they randomly lock up several times a day. Linux, Vista, XP. Whatever. They lock up. There's a reason that so many "refurbished" units of this model are up for sale.

Clearly an unsatisfactory situation. So I contacted Newegg and explained that I was unhappy with the defective laptop they had sold me. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the nice lady approved my RMA refund request and sent me a free UPS return label for me to use to ship the laptop back.

Not to shabby, I thought. This kind of service is why I have been a good Newegg customer for the past 7 years. Spending about $2,000 - $3,000 per year. For seven years. At Newegg.

Oops, not so fast. [I bet some of you saw this coming.] See the email I just received from Newegg:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thanks again for shopping at Newegg.com.

We recently received your RMA and your return was then sent to our Inspections Department for closer examination.

Incomplete return

User changed OS to Linux Kubuntu

System has been modified/altered original manufacturers operating system has been removed cannot access restore partition, this voids Newegg warranty. Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received.

RMA denied return to customer

Because Newegg would be facing a loss if we were to replace this item, we are returning the product to you and recommending that you contact the manufacturer directly to request that they repair or replace the item under your manufacturer's warranty. Please visit the following link to view a listing of all the manufacturers whose products we carry: http://www.newegg.com/app/contactmanufacturer.asp?DEPA=0

Kindest regards,

Newegg.com

RMA Inspections Department

[hidden email]

http://www.newegg.com

This email was sent from Newegg's Automated Email System so please do not reply.

That's right: I installed Linux on the laptop, and therefore Newegg is not going to honor my refund.

Need I say more? Newegg is now on record as a vendor from whom you purchase at your own risk. They have demonstrated that they will knowingly sell defective hardware, and not honor refund requests on same.

A very good way to go out of business, in my opinion.

Buyer beware.

______________________________

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

Thanks, Steve.

What was it we were discussing just last week? Oh, yeah, I remember! Low average IQ in the US of A. Apparently I require some measure of pain to keep myself reminded that "refurbished" merchandise is generally not a bargain. Duh.

Newegg has at least one more surprise in store for them regarding this particular unsatisfactory transaction: I am initiating a charge back action with my credit card company, who, BTW, is being quite helpful.

In response to my having sent Newegg a link to the Linux Today version of the story, I did receive an apologetic message from Newegg, which basically reiterated that my laptop had been returned in an "incomplete state" (??) because I had installed Linux on it.

To which I politely replied that this was an unacceptable response, and then pointed the individual back at the Linux Today article with the suggestion that he brush up on all of the details of the transaction. Such, for example, that bit about there having been no mention that installing Linux on the laptop would void its warranty.

Small claims court is also an option that is waiting in the wings, even if the credit card charge back action is successful. My consulting rates are $250/hour, and the clock is running on all time spent on this unnecessary time waster.

Cheers,

--Doug

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jihad Doug -

I am sympathetic to your plight and I wish you well on your Jihad.   Until it plays out a little further, I will assume "NewEgg is a BadEgg".

That said, I have a few observations:

Bargains usually aren't.   This trips me every time I find/seek/indulge-in one. I think it is a feature of our "free market" that someone is always waiting to slip us a mickey of some kind (at a discount of course). This is the reason I don't trust refurbed equipment... not because I "deserve" new or fear that they did a bad job on the refurb, but rather that there might be a taste of lemon in the product that is below some threshold (but above mine).

I have seen others who have used the mouthpiece of our emergent "citizen-media" to take on big corps in similar situations.   I only have point-samples in the distribution which seems to range from those who merely embarrass themselves to those who have an effect not unlike winning a class-action suit.   On face value, your "case" sounds mostly solid but probably lies somewhere in between.   This one poorly handled product is not enough to blemish them much by itself. If there is a pattern to selling lemon-scented products, maybe this will be the one that takes them down.

I'm glad to hear NewEgg has come through for you for many years... that alone is amazing.   I have little reason to expect them to be this good in the first place, much less remain so.   It seems to be the nature of fictitious people (corporations) to develop credibility (or not) to a certain point and then spend a long period on "profit taking".   The turning point is often a change in ownership or management.   The point is that if NewEgg has gone from credibility-building to profit-taking, your voice will be lost in the hubbub of all the other disgruntled customers they might very well be generating right now.

There is great satisfaction to be had in "vengeance", even though it usually costs the "avenger" more to get it than the magnitude of the original harm.

I hope NewEgg is merely having a bad moment and that some (human) will field your complaints/warnings and "do the right thing".   Your "expose" was well enough worded and polite that I think it is a service to the community. Even if NewEgg comes through in short order, the "Caveat Emptor" suggested at several levels will be useful to many.

Per Nick's comments... I doubt NewEgg would respond with any legal action. I believe you are not being either slanderous or libelous, merely contentious.

We'll be waiting with 'bated breath as the saga unfolds.   Meanwhile don't fly any planes into the NewEgg corporate HQ without consulting me... I have some alternatives you might consider.

- Steve
All,

I have occasionally been of the mind to take this sort of revenge on a corporation, but don't have the technical know how (or the--um --guts) to do so. But that hasn't kept me from worrying about the consequences of acting with explicit MALICE against any organization with lawyers.

Is there a hazard here? Should Doug be putting all his assets into an irrevocable trust for his parrots before he takes on newegg?

Just wondering.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/18/2010 4:56:57 PM

Subject: [FRIAM] War has been declared

Dear fellow FRIAMers,

Please enjoy the opportunity to be the first audience to observe the opening salvo in my newly-declared war on Newegg.com. I just got off the phone with their Customer Service Department, after having sent then a courtesy advance copy of the short article included below. I wanted to give them one last chance to correct what I believe will be a much larger mistake than they might have anticipated. Next stop Slashdot, then Linux Today, then CNET, Wired.com if they will have it as an editorial. Linux Journal, Linux Journal (Facebook). I'll become a fan & write on their wall for all 6,384 other fans to read. Linux Magazine Online, Linux Online, Linux Magazine (different from Linux Magazine Online), etc.

This might surprise some of you, but I can become a large pain in the ass when I get pissed off.

And I am pissed off.

--Doug

______________________________

I admit it up front. I want to take $399 out of the hide of Newegg.com. Here's why:

I purchased a refurbished Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 laptop from Newegg 4 weeks ago, for -- you guessed it -- $399. The laptop arrived three days later, and I installed Kubuntu 9.10 on it. No muss, no fuss, no hitches. Everything worked, right out of the box: wireless, graphics, the whole shebang.

Well, apparently everything worked. The laptop was a birthday present for my wife, you see. So the first thing she asked for was for me to install Skype on it so she could make video calls to her daughter.

No problem, says I. Presto, Skype got installed. Oops, the picture is upside down. This laptop was manufactured/assembled with the webcam installed 180 degrees out of whack!

Well, ok. I guess. There's a Video For Linux patch just for this situation. So I installed the patch (a library to pre-load prior to running apps that use webcam). Alrighty, the webcam video is no longer upside down in Skype. I handed the laptop back to my wife.

Day two: the wife says, "My laptop locked up." I asked her what she had been doing at the time. "Moving the mouse."

Oh, oh, this isn't right. The Asus K50 is running an Intel T4200 dual-core processor and the Intel 4500 graphics chipset. The Linux Intel graphics drivers are pretty solid. In fact, I've installed Kubuntu 9.10 on several nearly identical Acer T4200 laptops with the 4500 chipset, and they are all rock solid under some pretty heavy-duty use.

So, I installed the very latest Kubuntu update, which brought the kernel and modules up to version 2.6.31-19, and handed the laptop back to my wife. Again.

No go. Three - four times a day the machine just locked up. Randomly. Hard. Power cycle required to reboot.

So now I go to the intertubes to do some research (I know, I know) and discover [careful, big surprise coming] that the Asus K50 Series K50IJ-RX05 machines had the webcam installed upside down at the factory. Oh, and they randomly lock up several times a day. Linux, Vista, XP. Whatever. They lock up. There's a reason that so many "refurbished" units of this model are up for sale.

Clearly an unsatisfactory situation. So I contacted Newegg and explained that I was unhappy with the defective laptop they had sold me. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the nice lady approved my RMA refund request and sent me a free UPS return label for me to use to ship the laptop back.

Not to shabby, I thought. This kind of service is why I have been a good Newegg customer for the past 7 years. Spending about $2,000 - $3,000 per year. For seven years. At Newegg.

Oops, not so fast. [I bet some of you saw this coming.] See the email I just received from Newegg:

Dear Valued Customer,

Thanks again for shopping at Newegg.com.

We recently received your RMA and your return was then sent to our Inspections Department for closer examination.

Incomplete return

User changed OS to Linux Kubuntu

System has been modified/altered original manufacturers operating system has been removed cannot access restore partition, this voids Newegg warranty. Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received.

RMA denied return to customer

Because Newegg would be facing a loss if we were to replace this item, we are returning the product to you and recommending that you contact the manufacturer directly to request that they repair or replace the item under your manufacturer's warranty. Please visit the following link to view a listing of all the manufacturers whose products we carry: http://www.newegg.com/app/contactmanufacturer.asp?DEPA=0

Kindest regards,

Newegg.com

RMA Inspections Department

[hidden email]

http://www.newegg.com

This email was sent from Newegg's Automated Email System so please do not reply.

That's right: I installed Linux on the laptop, and therefore Newegg is not going to honor my refund.

Need I say more? Newegg is now on record as a vendor from whom you purchase at your own risk. They have demonstrated that they will knowingly sell defective hardware, and not honor refund requests on same.

A very good way to go out of business, in my opinion.

Buyer beware.

______________________________

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: War has been declared

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:03 AM:
> and the clock is running on all time spent on
> this unnecessary time waster.

Dude. If you agree that this is a time waster, why are you posting
these messages to the mailing list?

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

Don't read them! You'll save yourself some time.

Best Regards,

--Doug

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 11:12 AM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:03 AM:

> and the clock is running on all time spent on
> this unnecessary time waster.

Dude. If you agree that this is a time waster, why are you posting
these messages to the mailing list?

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: War has been declared

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:17 AM:
> Don't read them! You'll save yourself some time.

Oh great. You follow one contradiction with another. First, you spend
all this energy on something you think is a waste of time, including
wasting others' resources.

THEN, you explicitly make the statement "Don't read this sentence."

That's 2 contradictions back-to-back. Either you're taking some
nefarious route to a rhetorical point about paradox and applied
complexity... or ... you're having a fit of narcissism thinking that
your own personal problems should matter to those around you. Ouch! Am
I coming off too harsh? Sorry. But I'd appreciate some indication of
how this is related to applied complexity.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

Chill, dude. You're destroying the karma of the list.

As well as wasting my time.

;-o

Re: The complexity tie-in -- it's complicated, but I don't have time to go into it right now. I'll get back to you on that. In the mean time, consider the complex social dynamics, as they interact, interface, and propagate in todays' complex socio-economic grid, vis a vis the 500,000+ person-agents who have been made aware of a bad actor in the transactional mix via the attractor of social networking propagation paths (cyclic, as well as acyclic), all a mere 18 hours after the perceived bad transaction was detected.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 11:27 AM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:17 AM:

> Don't read them! You'll save yourself some time.

Oh great. You follow one contradiction with another. First, you spend
all this energy on something you think is a waste of time, including
wasting others' resources.

THEN, you explicitly make the statement "Don't read this sentence."

That's 2 contradictions back-to-back. Either you're taking some
nefarious route to a rhetorical point about paradox and applied
complexity... or ... you're having a fit of narcissism thinking that
your own personal problems should matter to those around you. Ouch! Am
I coming off too harsh? Sorry. But I'd appreciate some indication of
how this is related to applied complexity.

--

glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: War has been declared

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:42 AM:
> Chill, dude. You're destroying the karma of the list.
> As well as wasting my time.

Heh, that's rich. You regularly point out flaws in others' reasoning
and generally poo-poo many of the more interesting ideas on this list.
Then when someone (jokingly, even) challenges you, you resort to
"destroying the karma" and "wasting my time"? Where I come from we call
people like you "glass cannons". You hit really hard but shatter at the
slightest return blow.

C'est la vie. [sigh]

> Re: The complexity tie-in -- it's complicated, but I don't have time to go
> into it right now. I'll get back to you on that. In the mean time,
> consider the complex social dynamics, as they interact, interface, and
> propagate in todays' complex socio-economic grid, vis a vis the 500,000+
> person-agents who have been made aware of a bad actor in the transactional
> mix via the attractor of social networking propagation paths (cyclic, as
> well as acyclic), all a mere 18 hours after the perceived bad transaction
> was detected.

Nonsense. I have no issue with Newegg. I do have issues with people
who buy a product before researching it, then when they have a problem,
blame others for that problem... and THEN when things don't go their
way, throw a hissy fit and waste everyone's time complaining. As
pointed out by Steve, Newegg is no different from any other corporation.
Yes, corporations aggregate human traits. They aggregate stupidity as
well as other things more positive like successfully serving YOUR needs
for many years. Your rantings come off as precisely what they are, the
rantings of an angry person who needs to step back and consider the
bigger picture... and perhaps come up with practical solutions to the
cause rather than myopic band-aids for the symptom.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: War has been declared

glen e. p. ropella wrote:

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:42 AM:

Chill, dude.  You're destroying the karma of the list.
As well as wasting my time.

I thought *this* was the karma of the list!

I see Glen becoming as righteously indignant about Doug's rant as Doug is about NewEgg's shortcomings.

All's well that ends well.

Doug now has (a verbal promise of?) financial satisfaction, including a gift certificate from NewEgg worth about 35 minutes of his time <grin>.

Time to replace that $399 refurb laptop with a $549 new one with it's video camera installed right-side up?

If only Pete Nanos had had the foresight to apologize to Doug and give him a $150 certificate for Nambe Ware 5 years ago.

- Steve


Heh, that's rich.  You regularly point out flaws in others' reasoning
and generally poo-poo many of the more interesting ideas on this list.
Then when someone (jokingly, even) challenges you, you resort to
"destroying the karma" and "wasting my time"?  Where I come from we call
people like you "glass cannons".  You hit really hard but shatter at the
slightest return blow.

C'est la vie.  [sigh]

Re: The complexity tie-in -- it's complicated, but I don't have time to go
into it right now.  I'll get back to you on that.  In the mean time,
consider the complex social dynamics, as they interact, interface, and
propagate in todays' complex socio-economic grid, vis a vis the 500,000+
person-agents who have been made aware of a bad actor in the transactional
mix via the attractor of social networking propagation paths (cyclic, as
well as acyclic), all a mere 18 hours after the perceived bad transaction
was detected.


Nonsense.  I have no issue with Newegg.  I do have issues with people
who buy a product before researching it, then when they have a problem,
blame others for that problem... and THEN when things don't go their
way, throw a hissy fit and waste everyone's time complaining.  As
pointed out by Steve, Newegg is no different from any other corporation.
 Yes, corporations aggregate human traits.  They aggregate stupidity as
well as other things more positive like successfully serving YOUR needs
for many years.  Your rantings come off as precisely what they are, the
rantings of an angry person who needs to step back and consider the
bigger picture... and perhaps come up with practical solutions to the
cause rather than myopic band-aids for the symptom.

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

Priceless!

;-}

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

If only Pete Nanos had had the foresight to apologize to Doug and give him a $150 certificate for Nambe Ware 5 years ago.

- Steve

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Ok, so I fibbed a little bit when I indicated that I was done ranting about this issue.

There actually is a complex social network component to the whole episode. I just did a quick back-of-the-envelop addition: during the past 18 hours, approx 500,000 individuals were exposed to the article that I wrote about the Newegg interaction. Contact was made via a combination of Facebook, mailing lists, and the Linux Today online publication. Newegg's Facebook page alone has 249,512 fans subscribed to it.

Information flows faster these days than it used to, if you want it to.

--Doug

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

glen e. p. ropella wrote:

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:42 AM:

Chill, dude.  You're destroying the karma of the list.
As well as wasting my time.

Heh, that's rich.  You regularly point out flaws in others' reasoning
and generally poo-poo many of the more interesting ideas on this list.
Then when someone (jokingly, even) challenges you, you resort to
"destroying the karma" and "wasting my time"?  Where I come from we call
people like you "glass cannons".  You hit really hard but shatter at the
slightest return blow.

C'est la vie.  [sigh]

Re: The complexity tie-in -- it's complicated, but I don't have time to go
into it right now.  I'll get back to you on that.  In the mean time,
consider the complex social dynamics, as they interact, interface, and
propagate in todays' complex socio-economic grid, vis a vis the 500,000+
person-agents who have been made aware of a bad actor in the transactional
mix via the attractor of social networking propagation paths (cyclic, as
well as acyclic), all a mere 18 hours after the perceived bad transaction
was detected.

Nonsense.  I have no issue with Newegg.  I do have issues with people
who buy a product before researching it, then when they have a problem,
blame others for that problem... and THEN when things don't go their
way, throw a hissy fit and waste everyone's time complaining.  As
pointed out by Steve, Newegg is no different from any other corporation.
 Yes, corporations aggregate human traits.  They aggregate stupidity as
well as other things more positive like successfully serving YOUR needs
for many years.  Your rantings come off as precisely what they are, the
rantings of an angry person who needs to step back and consider the
bigger picture... and perhaps come up with practical solutions to the
cause rather than myopic band-aids for the symptom.

Nick Thompson

Re: War has been declared

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Because, glen, many of us are taking a vicarious pleasure in it.

Sex and Beer are also a waste of time.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

> [Original Message]
> From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/19/2010 11:12:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] War has been declared
>
> Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:03 AM:
> > and the clock is running on all time spent on
> > this unnecessary time waster.
>
> Dude. If you agree that this is a time waster, why are you posting
> these messages to the mailing list?
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: War has been declared

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 12:24 PM:
> There actually is a complex social network component to the whole episode.
> I just did a quick back-of-the-envelop addition: during the past 18 hours,
> approx 500,000 individuals were exposed to the article that I wrote about
> the Newegg interaction. Contact was made via a combination of Facebook,
> mailing lists, and the Linux Today online publication. Newegg's Facebook
> page alone has 249,512 fans subscribed to it.
>
> Information flows faster these days than it used to, if you want it to.

But what's the point?

The normal path now would be for you to post some sort of "I got what I
wanted out of Newegg" message to those 500k individuals. This would
demonstrate that Newegg is not such a bad actor after all and/or that
you are a most powerful techie samurai, or whatever.

But that's not very interesting. This sort of thing happens EVERY DAY
to lots of people. Sure, you had your satisfaction. And you probably
made Newegg a little more bureaucratic and conservative in the process.

But what have you actually achieved?

Why have you wasted the time and attention of 500k people? To what
purpose? What's in it for those 500k people? Or did you, perhaps,
simply use the time and attention of those 500k people to get what YOU
wanted? I continue to wonder who the "bad actor" is, here. Newegg, who
would sell crap to unwitting fools and only capitulate when coerced? Or
Doug, the guy who's willing to abuse the time and attention of 500,000
people because he happens to be mad about something?

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: War has been declared

Did you wake up on the wrong side of your bunker this morning?

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:44 PM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 12:24 PM:

> There actually is a complex social network component to the whole episode.
> I just did a quick back-of-the-envelop addition: during the past 18 hours,
> approx 500,000 individuals were exposed to the article that I wrote about
> the Newegg interaction. Contact was made via a combination of Facebook,
> mailing lists, and the Linux Today online publication. Newegg's Facebook
> page alone has 249,512 fans subscribed to it.
>
> Information flows faster these days than it used to, if you want it to.

But what's the point?

The normal path now would be for you to post some sort of "I got what I
wanted out of Newegg" message to those 500k individuals. This would
demonstrate that Newegg is not such a bad actor after all and/or that
you are a most powerful techie samurai, or whatever.

But that's not very interesting. This sort of thing happens EVERY DAY
to lots of people. Sure, you had your satisfaction. And you probably
made Newegg a little more bureaucratic and conservative in the process.

But what have you actually achieved?

Why have you wasted the time and attention of 500k people? To what
purpose? What's in it for those 500k people? Or did you, perhaps,
simply use the time and attention of those 500k people to get what YOU
wanted? I continue to wonder who the "bad actor" is, here. Newegg, who
would sell crap to unwitting fools and only capitulate when coerced? Or
Doug, the guy who's willing to abuse the time and attention of 500,000
people because he happens to be mad about something?

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: War has been declared

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Interesting to have the connection spelled out.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/19/2010 1:25:02 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] War has been declared

Ok, so I fibbed a little bit when I indicated that I was done ranting about this issue.

There actually is a complex social network component to the whole episode. I just did a quick back-of-the-envelop addition: during the past 18 hours, approx 500,000 individuals were exposed to the article that I wrote about the Newegg interaction. Contact was made via a combination of Facebook, mailing lists, and the Linux Today online publication. Newegg's Facebook page alone has 249,512 fans subscribed to it.

Information flows faster these days than it used to, if you want it to.

--Doug

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

glen e. p. ropella wrote:
Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10-02-19 10:42 AM:

Chill, dude. You're destroying the karma of the list. As well as wasting my time.
I thought *this* was the karma of the list!

I see Glen becoming as righteously indignant about Doug's rant as Doug is about NewEgg's shortcomings.

All's well that ends well.

Doug now has (a verbal promise of?) financial satisfaction, including a gift certificate from NewEgg worth about 35 minutes of his time <grin>.

Time to replace that $399 refurb laptop with a $549 new one with it's video camera installed right-side up?

If only Pete Nanos had had the foresight to apologize to Doug and give him a $150 certificate for Nambe Ware 5 years ago.

- Steve

Heh, that's rich. You regularly point out flaws in others' reasoning and generally poo-poo many of the more interesting ideas on this list. Then when someone (jokingly, even) challenges you, you resort to "destroying the karma" and "wasting my time"? Where I come from we call people like you "glass cannons". You hit really hard but shatter at the slightest return blow. C'est la vie. [sigh]

Re: The complexity tie-in -- it's complicated, but I don't have time to go into it right now. I'll get back to you on that. In the mean time, consider the complex social dynamics, as they interact, interface, and propagate in todays' complex socio-economic grid, vis a vis the 500,000+ person-agents who have been made aware of a bad actor in the transactional mix via the attractor of social networking propagation paths (cyclic, as well as acyclic), all a mere 18 hours after the perceived bad transaction was detected.
Nonsense. I have no issue with Newegg. I do have issues with people who buy a product before researching it, then when they have a problem, blame others for that problem... and THEN when things don't go their way, throw a hissy fit and waste everyone's time complaining. As pointed out by Steve, Newegg is no different from any other corporation. Yes, corporations aggregate human traits. They aggregate stupidity as well as other things more positive like successfully serving YOUR needs for many years. Your rantings come off as precisely what they are, the rantings of an angry person who needs to step back and consider the bigger picture... and perhaps come up with practical solutions to the cause rather than myopic band-aids for the symptom.