Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
 
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"Support Classless Society: Invite blue collar folks to wedtech lunch and friam coffee/breakfast. Oops, forgot, they're working."
"Hmm... well we could move one to the weekend?"
Google for some Pentecostal or other Evangelical churches in the area (esp. in the outskirts or poorer part of town), and go to them on the weekend. In the spirit of contrition and all that.
Marcus From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 12:54:51 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
Support Classless Society: Invite blue collar folks to wedtech lunch and friam coffee/breakfast. Oops, forgot, they're working.
Hmm... well we could move one to the weekend?
Now that *would* be radical.
-- Owen
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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Pentecostal or other Evangelical churches Pretty dramatic example of The Problem Of Class. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
"Police get solid wages, great benefits, and a respected place in their communities. For elites to write them off as racists is a telling example of how, although race- and sex-based insults are no longer acceptable in polite society, class-based insults still are."
Williams demonstrates, yet again, that _we_ are not doing our job. The para-military thugs who shoot our black men are not intentionally racist. They are taught to behave that way, taught by a (at least) 2 layer system: 1) explicit training in military style tactics, treating the community members as an enemy ("stop resisting") and 2) a much deeper societal, systemic portrayal of black men as a (dangerous) other. (FWIW, there are similar forces for all demographics ... we all harbor implicit bias.) For Williams to mistake an accusation of systemic racism for an accusation of _personal_ racism demonstrates that those of us who do work on complex systems (including cybernetics, systems science, evolutionary systems, etc.) have failed to communicate that attributes of the whole are not attributes of the parts. On the other hand, perhaps Williams understands these people who impose ignorance on themselves because she imposes ignorance on herself. The Black Lives Matter community has made it exceptionally clear that they are targeting systemic, not personal, racism. If Williams can't hear it, then she's simply deaf. On 11/13/2016 05:51 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Another relevant article > > https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class -- ␦glen? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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<<For Williams to mistake an accusation of systemic racism for an accusation of _personal_ racism demonstrates that those of us who do work on complex systems (including cybernetics, systems science, evolutionary systems, etc.) have failed to communicate that attributes of the whole are not attributes of the parts.>>
They are attributes of the parts. These parts have failed to recognize their own corruption and participation in implicit bias, and it is on them, not `elites' to `educate' them on how to think. My last two cars have been relatively expensive hybrid cars made in Michigan. All things being equal, I was happy to support American innovation. Now, I hope I can afford to buy my next car from a California-based company like Tesla. Otherwise I'll look to the global market and pay the tariffs. I probably would have bought a Bolt, but now I will wait. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
At the risk of pissing off a lot of my friends, Owen's proposal strikes me as tokenism at its worst. If we elites want to do more than talking to and emailing each other, I’d suggest that we instead spend some of our time doing something to help the sad state of education and the economy in NM. I don’t know how many of you realize that 75% of the children in the SF schools qualify for food aid and the district scores at the bottom of the state’s districts every year. The Alliance for Science has tutoring programs and some of you are judges at the Science Fairs (where there is still the need for more judges). We need sponsors for the Supercomputing Challenge. I could go on and on with other opportunities but I think point is clear.
I noted that Clinton won SF County by about a 3 to 1 margin. So if people want to have lunch with other kinds of folks, how about driving down south? An then there’s Texas. Ed _______________________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
On 11/14/2016 09:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > They are attributes of the parts. These parts have failed to recognize their own corruption and participation in implicit bias, and it is on them, not `elites' to `educate' them on how to think. But you're relying on the same whole/part ambiguity Williams conflates. Yes, the racist attributes of the system map to the individual's myopia, their inability to extrapolate to the consequences of their own actions. But at the system layer, the attribute is racism. At the individual layer, the attributes are not racism. Myopia (and other types of ignorance) at the individual layer can generate all sorts of systemic effects. If such gen-phen mappings were always bijections, then there would be no "complex systems". And to quote my dad: "Problems should be solved by whoever sees them." Sure, those who can't see various things, like all of us, should always be working on expanding their vision. But if you clearly see a problem, then you bear the responsibility to work on it. This isn't elitist. It's banal. -- ␦glen? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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<<But you're relying on the same whole/part ambiguity Williams conflates. Yes, the racist attributes of the system map to the individual's myopia, their inability to extrapolate to the consequences of their own actions.>>
In a democracy, we are equals. They've acted in their own self- interest, and I didn't really need to. I voted for our collective interest, which was, as far as I am concerned, sabotaged in obscene fashion by rust belt voters, possibly for generations. Individuals that don't listen to fact, reason, or respond to arguments (like almost every editorial and analyses by all of the distinguished newspapers for more than a year), deserve what they get. The way I see to solve this problem is to let evolution do its thing. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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In reply to this post by Edward Angel
I think I agree with Ed. I've had epic rants about what boils down to a few things as a biger picture problems: Peoples Maslows being messed with Stuff getting to gloopy Stuff being made overly complicated To little simple joy Aholery. In other words: where's star fleet, picard and kirk when you need them I get pissed off at those problem because strike uncofortably close to home for me. I have a nice appartment fam lets use and may let me rent eventually. Part of my end of the bargain is when I get work to cover bills and as dad puts it manage the problems. Their is a instagram meme making the rounds saying: What's wrong with this picture:Americans don't do on the job training for people to put stuff on shelves or pay them well., then want them to have a physics PHD, 10 years of experience to get started. But don't mind a unstable xenophobic, racist, man with no political experience as president. I am experiencing some of the problems Ed has nailed. Fortunatly for me (some) of my skills are transferable. I genuinly like some parts of tech support, I think it's fun. Santa Fe has only 5 temp agencies (for example), those (can) make getting back into work much simpler because their is no risk for anyone. Kelly Services just couldn't keep up work and moved to Albquerky(sp), and even then acording to them they're bairly getting acounts. Indeed.com and craig's list NM are crap shots I've had people from indeed say they simply don't have the time or money anymore to do on the job traning or they'd hire me that day. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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I don't want my email to sound to doom and gloom. I'm experiencing first hand many of the problems Ed mentioned in his response. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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In reply to this post by gepr
Glen - Not to be argumentative, but: It sounds as if you are entirely dissociating individual racist (or misogynist or... ) bigotry from the collective?Yes, the racist attributes of the system map to the individual's myopia, their inability to extrapolate to the consequences of their own actions. But at the system layer, the attribute is racism. At the individual layer, the attributes are not racism. Myopia (and other types of ignorance) at the individual layer can generate all sorts of systemic effects. If such gen-phen mappings were always bijections, then there would be no "complex systems". I know you to have some fairly eclectic ideas about individual and collective human behaviour/motivation/self-awareness, so I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to say here rather than deny or discount or disagree with it. Perhaps one could postulate that many if not all human "sins" are emergent properties of collectives and that individuals, raised out of the context of an already corrupted group would not have those properties. Adam and Eve before expulsion from the garden of Eden? It is as if you are suggesting that many (or all?) individuals remain in some kind of state of Grace, marred only by their myopic (and other types of) ignorance, magnified quantitatively or transformed qualitatively into the kind "sinful" behaviour we see in group activities? I can buy SOME of that, but have a hard time not believing that there *are* truly bad actors, individuals who have, through whatever process of arriving (nature or nurture, genetic/disease/trauma-induced insanity), exhibit truly, deeply madly abhorrent if not actually evil (how do you measure that?) behaviour? Again, not to belabor it, I know you to have some very *useful* (to me) alternative perspectives on things, I'm hoping my questions here provoke you to illuminate me more. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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perhaps an example, perhaps not:
all humans, probably all animals, are innately xenophobic, we are all afraid of the "other." This is nature. But, fear of the black man, or the woman, or whatever, comes about only when our context, the collective / the culture gives definition to the xenophobic "other."
absent the collective, no individual would be racist or misogynist, but they would be afraid.
davew
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
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Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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My adopted daughter was born in Mexico. She lived in Pittsburgh for over a year before we moved to Santa Fe. She went to a small, private kindergarten there which was very diverse with Asians, Arabs, African Americans, and many blonde Americans. After she had been in school in Santa Fe for awhile I asked her if there were any other Hispanic kids in her class. She said, "I don't know". I think this is an example of what David says. The answer was yes. Frank Frank Wimberly On Nov 14, 2016 1:51 PM, "Prof David West" <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Prof David West
On 11/14/2016 12:50 PM, Prof David West wrote:
> all humans, probably all animals, are innately xenophobic, we are all afraid of the "other." This is nature. But, fear of the black man, or the woman, or whatever, comes about only when our context, the collective / the culture gives definition to the xenophobic "other." > > absent the collective, no individual would be racist or misogynist, but they would be afraid. That's a good way to think about it. But it skirts a fundamental wolf that Steve is feeding. The right tends to assume people are basically bad (perhaps not evil, but at least selfish). The left tends to assume people are good and circumstance leads to bad actions. The reality is that the collective(s) constitute the individuals just as much as individuals constitute the collective(s). Yes, there are individual racists. That assumption is a critical part of my argument. If there was no individual racism, I couldn't distinguish between individual and collective racism. And, no I'm not entirely separating the two. Is/can individual racism persist (invariantly) under composition? Yes, of course. Individual racism is foundational to the US, unfortunately. But that's not the problem I'm pointing out in the _Williams_ article. The problem with her article is that she implies that "elites" are accusing policemen of individual racism. And asserts that those shootings were not racist acts, motivated by individual racism. I agree with her assertion. The shootings are (mostly) a result of fear- and aggression-based training. Even _if_ the individual cops (like Darren Wilson) are racist, being a policeman is a _professional_ position. To the largest extent possible, cops are encouraged to keep their personal opinions out of their work. So, even when an individual racist commits a collectively racist act, it does not imply that the collective racism necessarily _derives_ from individual racism. Systemic biases exist. And the current focus on the shooting of black men by police is on systemic bias, not (necessarily) individual bias. That Williams avoids that distinction damages the entire article. > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: >> It sounds as if you are entirely dissociating individual racist (or misogynist or... ) bigotry from the collective? >> >> I know you to have some fairly eclectic ideas about individual and collective human behaviour/motivation/self-awareness, so I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to say here rather than deny or discount or disagree with it. >> >> Perhaps one could postulate that many if not all human "sins" are emergent properties of collectives and that individuals, raised out of the context of an already corrupted group would not have those properties. Adam and Eve before expulsion from the garden of Eden? It is as if you are suggesting that many (or all?) individuals remain in some kind of state of Grace, marred only by their myopic (and other types of) ignorance, magnified quantitatively or transformed qualitatively into the kind "sinful" behaviour we see in group activities? I can buy SOME of that, but have a hard time not believing that there *are* truly bad actors, individuals who have, through whatever process of arriving (nature or nurture, genetic/disease/trauma-induced insanity), exhibit truly, deeply madly abhorrent if not actually evil (how do you measure that?) behaviour? >> >> Again, not to belabor it, I know you to have some very *useful* (to me) alternative perspectives on things, I'm hoping my questions here provoke you to illuminate me more. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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I don't want to distract the conversation, so consider this as an aside:
The "monotheistic right" aka the "religious right" does indeed believe that all humans are intrinsically evil, but capable of redemption if they subscribe to and submit to religious authority. This is true of christianity, islam, and judaism, but least so with the last. (Just to inflame some readers: mormon theology, as opposed to mormon sunday school teaching — which is saccharine christianity — is the exception, teaching the humans are not only innately good, but inevitably good — it will just take a while for some to realize their potential.) The secular right — and yes there really is such a thing — believes the opposite, i.e. that humans are intrinsically good, but subject to corruption. [perhaps the only good thing, for the republican party, in trump's ascendancy is the opportunity to take back the party from the religious right and restore the goldwater / reagan secular right to influence.) davew On Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 02:06 PM, glen ☣ wrote: > On 11/14/2016 12:50 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > all humans, probably all animals, are innately xenophobic, we are all afraid of the "other." This is nature. But, fear of the black man, or the woman, or whatever, comes about only when our context, the collective / the culture gives definition to the xenophobic "other." > > > > absent the collective, no individual would be racist or misogynist, but they would be afraid. > > That's a good way to think about it. But it skirts a fundamental wolf > that Steve is feeding. The right tends to assume people are basically > bad (perhaps not evil, but at least selfish). The left tends to assume > people are good and circumstance leads to bad actions. The reality is > that the collective(s) constitute the individuals just as much as > individuals constitute the collective(s). > > > > Yes, there are individual racists. That assumption is a critical part of > my argument. If there was no individual racism, I couldn't distinguish > between individual and collective racism. And, no I'm not entirely > separating the two. Is/can individual racism persist (invariantly) under > composition? Yes, of course. Individual racism is foundational to the > US, unfortunately. > > But that's not the problem I'm pointing out in the _Williams_ article. > The problem with her article is that she implies that "elites" are > accusing policemen of individual racism. And asserts that those > shootings were not racist acts, motivated by individual racism. I agree > with her assertion. The shootings are (mostly) a result of fear- and > aggression-based training. Even _if_ the individual cops (like Darren > Wilson) are racist, being a policeman is a _professional_ position. To > the largest extent possible, cops are encouraged to keep their personal > opinions out of their work. So, even when an individual racist commits a > collectively racist act, it does not imply that the collective racism > necessarily _derives_ from individual racism. > > Systemic biases exist. And the current focus on the shooting of black > men by police is on systemic bias, not (necessarily) individual bias. > That Williams avoids that distinction damages the entire article. > > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > >> It sounds as if you are entirely dissociating individual racist (or misogynist or... ) bigotry from the collective? > >> > >> I know you to have some fairly eclectic ideas about individual and collective human behaviour/motivation/self-awareness, so I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to say here rather than deny or discount or disagree with it. > >> > >> Perhaps one could postulate that many if not all human "sins" are emergent properties of collectives and that individuals, raised out of the context of an already corrupted group would not have those properties. Adam and Eve before expulsion from the garden of Eden? It is as if you are suggesting that many (or all?) individuals remain in some kind of state of Grace, marred only by their myopic (and other types of) ignorance, magnified quantitatively or transformed qualitatively into the kind "sinful" behaviour we see in group activities? I can buy SOME of that, but have a hard time not believing that there *are* truly bad actors, individuals who have, through whatever process of arriving (nature or nurture, genetic/disease/trauma-induced insanity), exhibit truly, deeply madly abhorrent if not actually evil (how do you measure that?) behaviour? > >> > >> Again, not to belabor it, I know you to have some very *useful* (to me) alternative perspectives on things, I'm hoping my questions here provoke you to illuminate me more. > > > -- > ☣ glen > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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Dave wriets:
"The secular right — and yes there really is such a thing — believes the opposite, i.e. that humans are intrinsically good, but subject to corruption. [perhaps the only good thing, for the republican party, in trump's ascendancy is the opportunity to take back the party from the religious right and restore the goldwater / reagan secular right to influence.)" Occam's razor would just say he's playing politics and being an opportunist, and it is not a long game to change the party. I don't really see much reason to think he cares about the party. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-promises-pro-life-justices-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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In reply to this post by Prof David West
David - I think that is a good example... at least for me. I have struggled with this duality all of my life... having a
natural curiosity about other places/things/people and that innate
"fear of difference or unknown", I have had an almost morbid
fascination with playing up against "the Other". And I admit to
avoiding clicques (mostly in High School) and groups (professional
and recreational organizations) because while I might distrust or
even fear some of the things the groups do, I always felt the
"magnification" of those feelings that they offered. Similar to Marx's (Groucho) idea that "I would belong any club
that would admit the likes of me", I felt that I didn't NEED or
want to have those feelings reinforced by being amongst others who
felt too much like me and I *really* didn't trust the
near-codification of some of those feelings that seemed to come
with "groupness". I'm looking forward to Glen's elaboration but I think you hit at least one aspect of it on the head here! - Steve On 11/14/16 1:50 PM, Prof David West
wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight
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<<Similar to Marx's (Groucho) idea that "I would belong any club that would admit the likes of me", I felt that I didn't NEED or want to have those feelings reinforced by being amongst others who felt too much like me and
I *really* didn't trust the near-codification of some of those feelings that seemed to come with "groupness". >> Hell is other people -- John Paul Sarte Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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