Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

[Eric Charles-2]

Steelman attempt below.

I wasn't there for the "Talent" discussion on Friday, but got a bit of a recap from Nick and Jon later. Nick was trying to use some thoughts on "talent" to set up some other discussion (which is silly), and apparently never quite pulled the later discussion together and didn't know exactly what the wanted, he just knew it didn't happen. My take is that he wanted to start a discussion about "Moral Luck": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_luck 

"Moral luck describes circumstances whereby a moral agent is assigned moral blame or praise for an action or its consequences even if it is clear that said agent did not have full control over either the action or its consequences. " 

The "moral luck" issue doesn't really depend as much on our discussing "morals" as it might seem, it works for a discussion of anything we "value", and FRIAM definitely values "talent". Whether or not one is "talented" depends a lot on where they find themselves. There is both a "luck" aspect to the immediate context in which one develops (parents, schools, neighborhood, etc.) and also to what type of abilities the larger society values. Nick seemed to want to talk primarily about the latter. For an example of that: Not long ago, the best video game players in the world were heroes to their friends 20 years ago, and today they are making a living by winning international championships and getting product endorsements. League of Legends is a decade old, averages 50 million players daily, 115 million total, and its world championship has a $5 million prize pool, not to mention the endorsement possibilities for the winners... and there are games that are much bigger. Why should the best video game player today be widely recognized as "talented" and paid millions of dollars a year for that talent, while the best video game player of 40 years ago is basically unknown and probably has a normal day job. The answer is, in some important sense, "luck" (or so the argument goes).  

I think Nick wants to know: IF we accept that there is a boat load of luck involved in the kind he is describing, THEN what, if anything, should we change about our attitudes (or about society at large) in recognition of that fact. The success simply can't be attributed just to the individual, and that seems relevant to what we admire and reward. 

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

I never could understand why people continue to play chess, or Go, or watch Jeopardy given that humans have been surpassed in these games.   Will people watch computers play each other?

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 8:55 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Steelman attempt below.

 

I wasn't there for the "Talent" discussion on Friday, but got a bit of a recap from Nick and Jon later. Nick was trying to use some thoughts on "talent" to set up some other discussion (which is silly), and apparently never quite pulled the later discussion together and didn't know exactly what the wanted, he just knew it didn't happen. My take is that he wanted to start a discussion about "Moral Luck": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_luck 

 

"Moral luck describes circumstances whereby a moral agent is assigned moral blame or praise for an action or its consequences even if it is clear that said agent did not have full control over either the action or its consequences. " 

 

The "moral luck" issue doesn't really depend as much on our discussing "morals" as it might seem, it works for a discussion of anything we "value", and FRIAM definitely values "talent". Whether or not one is "talented" depends a lot on where they find themselves. There is both a "luck" aspect to the immediate context in which one develops (parents, schools, neighborhood, etc.) and also to what type of abilities the larger society values. Nick seemed to want to talk primarily about the latter. For an example of that: Not long ago, the best video game players in the world were heroes to their friends 20 years ago, and today they are making a living by winning international championships and getting product endorsements. League of Legends is a decade old, averages 50 million players daily, 115 million total, and its world championship has a $5 million prize pool, not to mention the endorsement possibilities for the winners... and there are games that are much bigger. Why should the best video game player today be widely recognized as "talented" and paid millions of dollars a year for that talent, while the best video game player of 40 years ago is basically unknown and probably has a normal day job. The answer is, in some important sense, "luck" (or so the argument goes).  

 

I think Nick wants to know: IF we accept that there is a boat load of luck involved in the kind he is describing, THEN what, if anything, should we change about our attitudes (or about society at large) in recognition of that fact. The success simply can't be attributed just to the individual, and that seems relevant to what we admire and reward. 

 

 

 

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[jon zingale]

I do watch computers play go against each other. I play go because, like
studying or exercise, it feels good.



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[jon zingale]

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural
cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the
responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the
household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW
broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no
longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has
cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying,
"Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was
exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that
I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting
president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here
pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for
the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?



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[Barry MacKichan]

I think you would have trouble (eventually, perhaps, or immediately) if you tried to transfer money to ISIS.
—Barry

On 13 Jan 2021, at 12:26, jon zingale wrote:

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural
cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the
responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the
household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW
broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no
longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has
cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying,
"Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was
exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that
I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting
president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here
pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for
the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?



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[jon zingale]

yeah, exactly! Are we implying that Trump is now *officially* a terrorist?



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[Marcus G. Daniels]

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?



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[jon zingale]

That is true, though not free of further consideration. Eric's steelman
highlights a tight coupling between individual and society, tight enough
that actions on the *negative space*[1] of society are effective actions
induced on the individual. Similar arguments arise when we talk about
lowering one's individual carbon footprint by not driving. Extensionally,
this is fine but ignores the fact that computational difference amounts to
much more than *convenience* in practice[2]. Not driving is self-gimping and
only makes it harder to influence the necessary change.

That said and in further response to Barry, to treat Trump as a felon (which
he likely ought be) and to exact this judgment through indirect means sets a
dangerous precedent by ignoring type. However, maybe this is what we want
our society to be like? I think I must be ok with the idea that it is
*mobsters all the way down*, but again, I keep hearing idealistic talk of
ethics on this server.

[1] To pull in jargon another current Friam topic:
http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/a-more-focused-and-actionable-set-of-articles-of-impeachment-Sedition-vs-Insurrection-td7600137i20.html#a7600227

[2] Apologies if I am x-splaining. Your posts make it very clear that you
think a lot about computation.



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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Depending on where one sits in a company, one be more motivated by stock options or by salary.   Those that don't have golden handcuffs seem more likely to me to walk if the decisions the company takes are not considered to be good ones by those employees.   Not only will they take their skill, but they have competitive information in their heads that will walk with them.   It is a risk for the company leaders to consider.   It won't necessarily be effective, just like boycotts aren't necessarily effective.   I imagine a lot of risk here was the potential for boycotts or to mitigate heavy-handed regulation from Democratic legislation.

Do I want these selfish organizations to rule in place of democracy?   No but democracy is only one of the principles among many that I care about.   Who do I expect to act more rationally, Twitter or a random collection of Trumpers?   People associate with organizations like AARP or the NRA to have their interests advanced too.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 10:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

That is true, though not free of further consideration. Eric's steelman highlights a tight coupling between individual and society, tight enough that actions on the *negative space*[1] of society are effective actions induced on the individual. Similar arguments arise when we talk about lowering one's individual carbon footprint by not driving. Extensionally, this is fine but ignores the fact that computational difference amounts to much more than *convenience* in practice[2]. Not driving is self-gimping and only makes it harder to influence the necessary change.

That said and in further response to Barry, to treat Trump as a felon (which he likely ought be) and to exact this judgment through indirect means sets a dangerous precedent by ignoring type. However, maybe this is what we want our society to be like? I think I must be ok with the idea that it is *mobsters all the way down*, but again, I keep hearing idealistic talk of ethics on this server.

[1] To pull in jargon another current Friam topic:
http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/a-more-focused-and-actionable-set-of-articles-of-impeachment-Sedition-vs-Insurrection-td7600137i20.html#a7600227

[2] Apologies if I am x-splaining. Your posts make it very clear that you think a lot about computation.



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[Steve Smith]

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?



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[Steve Smith]

Jon -

That is true, though not free of further consideration. Eric's steelman
highlights a tight coupling between individual and society, tight enough
that actions on the *negative space*[1] of society are effective actions
induced on the individual. Similar arguments arise when we talk about
lowering one's individual carbon footprint by not driving. Extensionally,
this is fine but ignores the fact that computational difference amounts to
much more than *convenience* in practice[2]. Not driving is self-gimping and
only makes it harder to influence the necessary change.

This is a good place to insert some aphorisms:

"sometimes the most you can do is nothing"

"less is more"

maybe "what needs to be done" is back down our leverage ( kind of like limiting the killing power of weapons in the hands of individuals, or the performance/wastefulness of other technologies with known bad side-effects... automobiles, water-wasting systems, etc.).

I understand the arguments of not losing ground against competitors, but that evokes arms-race, red-queen, and race-to-the bottom.

That said and in further response to Barry, to treat Trump as a felon (which
he likely ought be) and to exact this judgment through indirect means sets a
dangerous precedent by ignoring type. However, maybe this is what we want
our society to be like? I think I must be ok with the idea that it is
*mobsters all the way down*, but again, I keep hearing idealistic talk of
ethics on this server.

World as Lover, World as Self, World as Battleground, World as Trap:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/world-lover-world-self/

I don't think of any of this as "ethics" proper, just a larger view of consequences including: "what kind of world do I want to live in?"

- Steve

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[thompnickson2]

Jon,

 

I play chess because it's fun to think.  In fact, I think being too good takes a lot of the fun out of chess. 

 

See Chess, Schmess.

 

Another version of chess I like is three-player chess.  You rotate the board, alternating playing white and black.  Yes, I know.  That’s the point. 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:12 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

I do watch computers play go against each other. I play go because, like studying or exercise, it feels good.

 

 

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

I found this amusing.  There’s such a thing!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi0BzqV_b44&list=LLEU0saj3whLYCMsA2-139GQ&index=2285

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 12:14 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Jon,

 

I play chess because it's fun to think.  In fact, I think being too good takes a lot of the fun out of chess. 

 

See Chess, Schmess.

 

Another version of chess I like is three-player chess.  You rotate the board, alternating playing white and black.  Yes, I know.  That’s the point. 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:12 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

I do watch computers play go against each other. I play go because, like studying or exercise, it feels good.

 

 

 

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[jon zingale]

Cool. You have a sort of *Komi* system for chess. I very much appreciate
three-player go similarly, with one additional variation. When each player
makes a move they must state something about the meaning or intent of their
move.



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[jon zingale]

freaking amazing!



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[jon zingale]

"maybe "what needs to be done" is back down our leverage ( kind of like
limiting the killing power of weapons in the hands of individuals, or the
performance/wastefulness of other technologies with known bad
side-effects... automobiles, water-wasting systems, etc.)"

I very much agree, but I must point out that the usage of *our* is
important. Switching this to *my* effectively describes the last 40 years of
impact that *my* not driving has had, an impact that is perhaps arguably
worse than if I had acted to have more agency in the world. That the offered
alternative appears to be limited to arms-racing to the bottom makes me
wonder if this is simply how it is or are other subtler strategies around.
To be more honest wrt my own position, I don't honestly have the power to do
much in the world anyway. I feel that these musings can be little more than
gossip between fops in the court of the sun king.



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[Marcus G. Daniels]

All there is, is leverage.   Someone will use it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

"maybe "what needs to be done" is back down our leverage ( kind of like limiting the killing power of weapons in the hands of individuals, or the performance/wastefulness of other technologies with known bad side-effects... automobiles, water-wasting systems, etc.)"

I very much agree, but I must point out that the usage of *our* is important. Switching this to *my* effectively describes the last 40 years of impact that *my* not driving has had, an impact that is perhaps arguably worse than if I had acted to have more agency in the world. That the offered alternative appears to be limited to arms-racing to the bottom makes me wonder if this is simply how it is or are other subtler strategies around.
To be more honest wrt my own position, I don't honestly have the power to do much in the world anyway. I feel that these musings can be little more than gossip between fops in the court of the sun king.



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[thompnickson2]

Uck!  A world without women; would it be SEXIST to say, I think that would be a truly dreary place?  How could it NOT be sexist to say that?  Hmmmm!

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale

Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?

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[Eric Charles-2]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Uck!  A world without women; would it be SEXIST to say, I think that would be a truly dreary place?  How could it NOT be sexist to say that?  Hmmmm!

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale

Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?

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[thompnickson2]

“Heteronormative?” 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Odd... my initial reaction to the synopsis was that it sounded very heteronormative :- D

 

 

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Uck!  A world without women; would it be SEXIST to say, I think that would be a truly dreary place?  How could it NOT be sexist to say that?  Hmmmm!

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale

Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?

--

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