Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

[Eric Charles-2]

At least from the brief summary, the book seems to assume a very heterosexual world.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity 

I've been to a few gay clubs, and a few drag shows, and let me assure you that it is quite possible to have non-dreary spaces where there are not women. 

"Oh my god, what would men do if women suddenly disappeared?!?" ....  I mean, yeah, that's a mystery <eye roll>.... <buys stock in sex-doll companies, gay entertainment conglomerates, and lube manufacturers>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

“Heteronormative?” 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Odd... my initial reaction to the synopsis was that it sounded very heteronormative :- D

 

 

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Uck!  A world without women; would it be SEXIST to say, I think that would be a truly dreary place?  How could it NOT be sexist to say that?  Hmmmm!

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale

Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?

--

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[Frank Wimberly-2]

Who would cook and wash the dishes?  JOKE.

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 9:09 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

At least from the brief summary, the book seems to assume a very heterosexual world.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity 

I've been to a few gay clubs, and a few drag shows, and let me assure you that it is quite possible to have non-dreary spaces where there are not women. 

"Oh my god, what would men do if women suddenly disappeared?!?" ....  I mean, yeah, that's a mystery <eye roll>.... <buys stock in sex-doll companies, gay entertainment conglomerates, and lube manufacturers>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

“Heteronormative?” 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Odd... my initial reaction to the synopsis was that it sounded very heteronormative :- D

 

 

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Uck!  A world without women; would it be SEXIST to say, I think that would be a truly dreary place?  How could it NOT be sexist to say that?  Hmmmm!

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale

Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?

--

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[thompnickson2]

Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80.

 

NICK

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 10:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

At least from the brief summary, the book seems to assume a very heterosexual world.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity 

 

I've been to a few gay clubs, and a few drag shows, and let me assure you that it is quite possible to have non-dreary spaces where there are not women. 

 

"Oh my god, what would men do if women suddenly disappeared?!?" ....  I mean, yeah, that's a mystery <eye roll>.... <buys stock in sex-doll companies, gay entertainment conglomerates, and lube manufacturers>

 

 

 

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

“Heteronormative?” 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Odd... my initial reaction to the synopsis was that it sounded very heteronormative :- D

 

 

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:36 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Uck!  A world without women; would it be SEXIST to say, I think that would be a truly dreary place?  How could it NOT be sexist to say that?  Hmmmm!

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 1:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

One could drive the cash to a recipient, or send Bitcoin.   There's no requirement of anyone to afford a donor of any particular convenience. 

I submit this apocalyptic tale from Frank Herbert (Dune):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93448.The_White_Plague

Relevant Synopsis:   Scientist (microbiologist/virologist) has his wife and daughter(s?) killed in a terrorist (IRA) attack on civilians.   He withdraws from his work, consolidates his assets and builds a biolab in the basement of a farmhouse in Iowa (or similar).  He gene splices a virus that has A) good longevity outside of human body; B) spreads easily and well;  C) kills only women.    He consolidates his remaining assets into small bills; laces them with the virus;  sends modest donations to every front for terrorist organizations he can discover.   He built in a time-out that *should* stop the virus after the appropriate number of generations to kill all of the terrorist/ally women.   This is where all goes awry... a mutation? breaks the timeout and the virus spreads around the world leaving all but a few handfuls of women who happened to be in some kind of isolation (e.g. in space, yachting around the world, etc.) ...  this is the first two chapters or so, the rest (bulk) of the book is post-apocalyptic yadda yadda but with the overtone of all the surviving men in the world having to come to terms with how much they took their women for granted, etc.  

Sadly, I fear this scenario is not nearly as far fetched as it was when he wrote it (80s?)...

Cross breed this story with Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and you get virus that collapses the world economic system...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale

Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 9:26 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

Very well summarized. I am hearing that Nick's question is one of cultural cultivation. Finding and maintaining a sweet spot seems crucial. Is it the responsibility and obligation of those with power to sit at the head of the household, to play the role of daddy to all free persons? I watched a DW broadcast where it was reported that financial services like Stripe no longer allow users to donate money to Donald Trump, and Deutsche Bank has cut business ties with him. The report closed with a broadcaster saying, "Well, it looks like money talks". I couldn't help but think that it was exactly the opposite, a place where money will not. I was left thinking that I could donate money to a felon sitting in prison, but not the exiting president of the United States (not that I have such an ambition). Here pressures on Trump's context are being reformed to reflect a new status for the man. Is this an example of a change in *our attitudes*?

--

Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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[Steve Smith]

nst> Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

nst> Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80 

and I submit to all that the main point of the storyline is the sorry/not-sorry (unintended/unexpected/yet-predictable) consequences of using violence (one of the most egregious types of levers). 

The "dreariness" of a world without women would seem to be eclipsed by the personal grief of *virtually* every male on the planet losing his wife/mother/daughters/sisters/female-friends overnight (in the personal) and the abrupt if delayed (by a remaining lifespan) existential grief of the end of a spectacular (if clearly flawed, as demonstrated by the central theme) species.   Maybe a (very few?) fully psychotic misogynists found it a pleasing condition (in which case I "blame the Mother" ;^) )

Unlike most post-apocalyptic storytelling, the misery is not (overtly) miserable health crises (nuclear holocaust) or marauding bands (though they did feature) or competition for exhausting resources, or retreating from an angry/disappointed "mother earth", but rather a simple but profound "absence" and incontrovertable "end of humanity", leaving the men of the world to contemplate (or not) how they treated women before they all went away.

<blatant Moralizing>

  If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  Or it's own hubris.  Or under the self-perpetuating seduction of vengeance and retribution: (don't click if you hate poetry)  The People of the Other Village - Thomas Lux

My parents taught me (mostly by example) that punishment of children was at best a necessary last resort, resulting from and reflecting upon a failure of good parenting leading up to the need for acute correction.  They were at least a *little* more direct/vocal about the same principle in public life, that our criminal justice system *only* existed, with it's myriad attempts at exacting justice without revenge and finding clever forms of "punitive retribution" to at least appear like "natural consequences" (not a term in parenting vocabulary at that time quite yet, but practiced by my parents and a few others I knew).  

Our current "Lord of the Flies" scene in DC (and across the country) may require all kinds of exacted punishment to re-align elements of society to where we can live together in relative peace, but to not acknowledge that the mere entertainment of the likes of Donald Trump as a national leader represents an abject failure of our culture to "make sense".   The calls for removal/impeachment/censure/disbarment are all reasonable triage actions to minimize continued damage, even if they are in many ways "too little too late".   But I am saddened as I hear a great deal of the rhetoric on the topic armatured around *retribution* and *vengeance*...

Self-Righteously yours,

- Steve

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[thompnickson2]

Steve,

 

Well, when good threads are bent, you and I will bend them.

 

Let me complete my thought:  There are two kinds of feminism here, right?  [Merle, please be kind.]  One claims that women are not different, and therefore should be treated equally.  The other claims that women are or may be different but that males’ and females’ natures are to be valued equally.  I have always leaned toward this sort of feminism.  But I see now that, insofar as it captures every woman I meet in a stereotype, this sort of feminism is itself sexist.  Every time I meet a woman, I engage in the following abductive-deductive logic:

 

              This person is wearing a skirt (say) and has long hair (say).

              This person is probably a woman.

              Women are less likely to be aggressive A-holes than men,

              Therefore, I (probably) can relax around this person.

 

There is no escaping the  sexism of this logic. 

 

I listen every week to a podcast, Strict Scrutiny, which begins with the aphorism:

 

I ask no special favor for my sex; I ask only that you take your feet off our necks

 

I was raised near the end of a rural road during WWII.  My only chum, from about 1 year to adolescence was a girl.  After the War, my parents moved to Boston.  Before we were separated, we had a long chat about gender, she and I, and agreed, sadly, that I was lucky to be a guy.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

nst> Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

nst> Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80 

and I submit to all that the main point of the storyline is the sorry/not-sorry (unintended/unexpected/yet-predictable) consequences of using violence (one of the most egregious types of levers). 

The "dreariness" of a world without women would seem to be eclipsed by the personal grief of *virtually* every male on the planet losing his wife/mother/daughters/sisters/female-friends overnight (in the personal) and the abrupt if delayed (by a remaining lifespan) existential grief of the end of a spectacular (if clearly flawed, as demonstrated by the central theme) species.   Maybe a (very few?) fully psychotic misogynists found it a pleasing condition (in which case I "blame the Mother" ;^) )

Unlike most post-apocalyptic storytelling, the misery is not (overtly) miserable health crises (nuclear holocaust) or marauding bands (though they did feature) or competition for exhausting resources, or retreating from an angry/disappointed "mother earth", but rather a simple but profound "absence" and incontrovertable "end of humanity", leaving the men of the world to contemplate (or not) how they treated women before they all went away.

<blatant Moralizing>

  If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  Or it's own hubris.  Or under the self-perpetuating seduction of vengeance and retribution: (don't click if you hate poetry)  The People of the Other Village - Thomas Lux

My parents taught me (mostly by example) that punishment of children was at best a necessary last resort, resulting from and reflecting upon a failure of good parenting leading up to the need for acute correction.  They were at least a *little* more direct/vocal about the same principle in public life, that our criminal justice system *only* existed, with it's myriad attempts at exacting justice without revenge and finding clever forms of "punitive retribution" to at least appear like "natural consequences" (not a term in parenting vocabulary at that time quite yet, but practiced by my parents and a few others I knew).  

Our current "Lord of the Flies" scene in DC (and across the country) may require all kinds of exacted punishment to re-align elements of society to where we can live together in relative peace, but to not acknowledge that the mere entertainment of the likes of Donald Trump as a national leader represents an abject failure of our culture to "make sense".   The calls for removal/impeachment/censure/disbarment are all reasonable triage actions to minimize continued damage, even if they are in many ways "too little too late".   But I am saddened as I hear a great deal of the rhetoric on the topic armatured around *retribution* and *vengeance*...

Self-Righteously yours,

- Steve

 

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[jon zingale]

Thank you for moving the discussion of ethics further along its bifurcated
decision tree. Marcus' *it's all levers* remark summarizes (as far as I
understand it) a serious post-modern position/observation. Many on the list
(though not uniquely so) strawman PM by the silly boys and girls producing
the worst of critical race theory or whatever, but this often strikes me as
an attempt to *shoot the messenger* and divide-and-conquer a way back to a
simpler time. This impulse may very well be inevitable.

At the heart of PM appears the admissible interpretation provided by Marcus
and the honoring of complexity[1] that brought many of us (I suspect) to
reject strict reductionism and to recognize along with Zarathustra that
"Santa Claus is dead (as well as the panopticon for judging naughty and
nice), and (sorrowfully) we have killed him!"

In a mostly off-list conversation, I am struggling to elucidate the
possibility that a limit point for *truth* (in analogy to analysis or
topology more generally) may not belong to the interior of a given logical
system but to its boundary. In this way, proceeding within a particular
logical context (intuitionism, say) may provide no possibility for a
construction to terminate with *true*, yet another logic acting as closure
(or analytic extension) does[2]. I mention this because the concept suggests
to me that non-true (thus in a limited sense non-real) factors in life may
very well shape the course of knowable truths. Ok, now that I have said my
speculative, possibly non-defensible, and likely terribly flawed thought, I
will offer this possibly controversial thought wrt gender roles[3].

Perhaps we recognize the non-truth (in a strict sense) of gender roles, but
find ways to thoughtfully enact them anyway. We identify the places where
the benefits outweigh the costs as-well-as where they don't. That is, we
recognize that they are *false* and useful. This idea seems similar to the
approach that Steve puts forward. Yes, power is not the daddy of free men,
but it ought to act on public life, administering *punitive retribution*, in
some thoughtful way. That thoughtful way may not come with a natural choice
for an *analytic extension*, and so we may be doomed to make an artful
choice.

[1] I am thinking in particular about the contract of tree-like structures
versus "rhizomatic thought" as investigated by Deleuze and Guattari and
tangentially discussed here on the list in the form of algebras for
diffusion-limited aggregation.

[2] Ah, but how do we even choose such an extension. There has always seemed
to be a bit of *art* in this, for example, with finding analytic extensions
of the Collatz function:
https://chamberland.math.grinnell.edu/papers/3x_survey_eng.pdf

[3] This idea surprisingly seems to be gathering steam and is endorsed by
some PM *thinkers* like the Red Scare ladies.



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[Marcus G. Daniels]

< If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  >

I’m not sure why you call it nihilist.   If some people are trying to change the world in a way I don’t like, then there is no choice but to push back, especially when persuasion doesn’t work.   I’m happy to give to charities that have products like “legal defense fund”, even if it isn’t tax deductible.   Those organizations seek a goal I have, and I alone couldn’t do it.   Leverage.   Sure in other cases one begins to have doubts, or mistrust the organizations, like with assured destruction.  Even there, I’m down with that when it is Obama but not Trump.    Believing civil persuasion is always possible is just not aligned with the real world.

Marcus

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[gepr]

I learned a phrase for missing analytical extensions today: hermeneutical lacunae. But the discussion on premature registration deserves a bit more content in light of such lacunae. The problem BC Smith brought to light was not *premature* registration, but *preemptive* registration. So, here, when you plop in a satisficing placeholder for some lacuna, you have to be able to back out of it if it turns out to do more bad than good. That means part of your "artful choice" is to avoid preempting alternatives ... avoiding lost opportunities to the best you can.

Violence, in general, can be reversible. Death isn't (as far as we know). And by "death", I really mean lost knowledge. If that gender-bending protester happened to be the next Alan Turing, you definitely don't want to "punish" her so as to preempt emanant genius.

On 1/14/21 10:34 AM, jon zingale wrote:
> That thoughtful way may not come with a natural choice
> for an *analytic extension*, and so we may be doomed to make an artful
> choice.


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[Merle Lefkoff-2]

Maybe I missed this earlier, but this thread might be more lively if it considers the latest gender conversation: the fluidity of gender as a form of cultural identity.  I have to practice constantly referring to several of my granddaughter's friends as "they", not "she" or "he" or "her" or "him."   

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:18 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

 

Well, when good threads are bent, you and I will bend them.

 

Let me complete my thought:  There are two kinds of feminism here, right?  [Merle, please be kind.]  One claims that women are not different, and therefore should be treated equally.  The other claims that women are or may be different but that males’ and females’ natures are to be valued equally.  I have always leaned toward this sort of feminism.  But I see now that, insofar as it captures every woman I meet in a stereotype, this sort of feminism is itself sexist.  Every time I meet a woman, I engage in the following abductive-deductive logic:

 

              This person is wearing a skirt (say) and has long hair (say).

              This person is probably a woman.

              Women are less likely to be aggressive A-holes than men,

              Therefore, I (probably) can relax around this person.

 

There is no escaping the  sexism of this logic. 

 

I listen every week to a podcast, Strict Scrutiny, which begins with the aphorism:

 

I ask no special favor for my sex; I ask only that you take your feet off our necks

 

I was raised near the end of a rural road during WWII.  My only chum, from about 1 year to adolescence was a girl.  After the War, my parents moved to Boston.  Before we were separated, we had a long chat about gender, she and I, and agreed, sadly, that I was lucky to be a guy.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

nst> Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

nst> Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80 

and I submit to all that the main point of the storyline is the sorry/not-sorry (unintended/unexpected/yet-predictable) consequences of using violence (one of the most egregious types of levers). 

The "dreariness" of a world without women would seem to be eclipsed by the personal grief of *virtually* every male on the planet losing his wife/mother/daughters/sisters/female-friends overnight (in the personal) and the abrupt if delayed (by a remaining lifespan) existential grief of the end of a spectacular (if clearly flawed, as demonstrated by the central theme) species.   Maybe a (very few?) fully psychotic misogynists found it a pleasing condition (in which case I "blame the Mother" ;^) )

Unlike most post-apocalyptic storytelling, the misery is not (overtly) miserable health crises (nuclear holocaust) or marauding bands (though they did feature) or competition for exhausting resources, or retreating from an angry/disappointed "mother earth", but rather a simple but profound "absence" and incontrovertable "end of humanity", leaving the men of the world to contemplate (or not) how they treated women before they all went away.

<blatant Moralizing>

  If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  Or it's own hubris.  Or under the self-perpetuating seduction of vengeance and retribution: (don't click if you hate poetry)  The People of the Other Village - Thomas Lux

My parents taught me (mostly by example) that punishment of children was at best a necessary last resort, resulting from and reflecting upon a failure of good parenting leading up to the need for acute correction.  They were at least a *little* more direct/vocal about the same principle in public life, that our criminal justice system *only* existed, with it's myriad attempts at exacting justice without revenge and finding clever forms of "punitive retribution" to at least appear like "natural consequences" (not a term in parenting vocabulary at that time quite yet, but practiced by my parents and a few others I knew).  

Our current "Lord of the Flies" scene in DC (and across the country) may require all kinds of exacted punishment to re-align elements of society to where we can live together in relative peace, but to not acknowledge that the mere entertainment of the likes of Donald Trump as a national leader represents an abject failure of our culture to "make sense".   The calls for removal/impeachment/censure/disbarment are all reasonable triage actions to minimize continued damage, even if they are in many ways "too little too late".   But I am saddened as I hear a great deal of the rhetoric on the topic armatured around *retribution* and *vengeance*...

Self-Righteously yours,

- Steve

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

I would prefer it be modeled as a wave function and that people resist the urge to take unnecessary observations.   I’m from another generation, though.

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 7:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Maybe I missed this earlier, but this thread might be more lively if it considers the latest gender conversation: the fluidity of gender as a form of cultural identity.  I have to practice constantly referring to several of my granddaughter's friends as "they", not "she" or "he" or "her" or "him."   

 

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:18 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

 

Well, when good threads are bent, you and I will bend them.

 

Let me complete my thought:  There are two kinds of feminism here, right?  [Merle, please be kind.]  One claims that women are not different, and therefore should be treated equally.  The other claims that women are or may be different but that males’ and females’ natures are to be valued equally.  I have always leaned toward this sort of feminism.  But I see now that, insofar as it captures every woman I meet in a stereotype, this sort of feminism is itself sexist.  Every time I meet a woman, I engage in the following abductive-deductive logic:

 

              This person is wearing a skirt (say) and has long hair (say).

              This person is probably a woman.

              Women are less likely to be aggressive A-holes than men,

              Therefore, I (probably) can relax around this person.

 

There is no escaping the  sexism of this logic. 

 

I listen every week to a podcast, Strict Scrutiny, which begins with the aphorism:

 

I ask no special favor for my sex; I ask only that you take your feet off our necks

 

I was raised near the end of a rural road during WWII.  My only chum, from about 1 year to adolescence was a girl.  After the War, my parents moved to Boston.  Before we were separated, we had a long chat about gender, she and I, and agreed, sadly, that I was lucky to be a guy.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

nst> Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

nst> Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80 

and I submit to all that the main point of the storyline is the sorry/not-sorry (unintended/unexpected/yet-predictable) consequences of using violence (one of the most egregious types of levers). 

The "dreariness" of a world without women would seem to be eclipsed by the personal grief of *virtually* every male on the planet losing his wife/mother/daughters/sisters/female-friends overnight (in the personal) and the abrupt if delayed (by a remaining lifespan) existential grief of the end of a spectacular (if clearly flawed, as demonstrated by the central theme) species.   Maybe a (very few?) fully psychotic misogynists found it a pleasing condition (in which case I "blame the Mother" ;^) )

Unlike most post-apocalyptic storytelling, the misery is not (overtly) miserable health crises (nuclear holocaust) or marauding bands (though they did feature) or competition for exhausting resources, or retreating from an angry/disappointed "mother earth", but rather a simple but profound "absence" and incontrovertable "end of humanity", leaving the men of the world to contemplate (or not) how they treated women before they all went away.

<blatant Moralizing>

  If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  Or it's own hubris.  Or under the self-perpetuating seduction of vengeance and retribution: (don't click if you hate poetry)  The People of the Other Village - Thomas Lux

My parents taught me (mostly by example) that punishment of children was at best a necessary last resort, resulting from and reflecting upon a failure of good parenting leading up to the need for acute correction.  They were at least a *little* more direct/vocal about the same principle in public life, that our criminal justice system *only* existed, with it's myriad attempts at exacting justice without revenge and finding clever forms of "punitive retribution" to at least appear like "natural consequences" (not a term in parenting vocabulary at that time quite yet, but practiced by my parents and a few others I knew).  

Our current "Lord of the Flies" scene in DC (and across the country) may require all kinds of exacted punishment to re-align elements of society to where we can live together in relative peace, but to not acknowledge that the mere entertainment of the likes of Donald Trump as a national leader represents an abject failure of our culture to "make sense".   The calls for removal/impeachment/censure/disbarment are all reasonable triage actions to minimize continued damage, even if they are in many ways "too little too late".   But I am saddened as I hear a great deal of the rhetoric on the topic armatured around *retribution* and *vengeance*...

Self-Righteously yours,

- Steve

 

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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @merle110

 

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[Prof David West]

Marcus,

I really like your wave function notion - it is very Buddhist in its essence.

davew

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021, at 9:39 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I would prefer it be modeled as a wave function and that people resist the urge to take unnecessary observations.   I’m from another generation, though.

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff

Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 7:51 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Maybe I missed this earlier, but this thread might be more lively if it considers the latest gender conversation: the fluidity of gender as a form of cultural identity.  I have to practice constantly referring to several of my granddaughter's friends as "they", not "she" or "he" or "her" or "him."   

 

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:18 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

 

Well, when good threads are bent, you and I will bend them.

 

Let me complete my thought:  There are two kinds of feminism here, right?  [Merle, please be kind.]  One claims that women are not different, and therefore should be treated equally.  The other claims that women are or may be different but that males’ and females’ natures are to be valued equally.  I have always leaned toward this sort of feminism.  But I see now that, insofar as it captures every woman I meet in a stereotype, this sort of feminism is itself sexist.  Every time I meet a woman, I engage in the following abductive-deductive logic:

 

              This person is wearing a skirt (say) and has long hair (say).

              This person is probably a woman.

              Women are less likely to be aggressive A-holes than men,

              Therefore, I (probably) can relax around this person.

 

There is no escaping the  sexism of this logic. 

 

I listen every week to a podcast, Strict Scrutiny, which begins with the aphorism:

 

I ask no special favor for my sex; I ask only that you take your feet off our necks

 

I was raised near the end of a rural road during WWII.  My only chum, from about 1 year to adolescence was a girl.  After the War, my parents moved to Boston.  Before we were separated, we had a long chat about gender, she and I, and agreed, sadly, that I was lucky to be a guy.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith

Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:24 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

nst> Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

nst> Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80 

and I submit to all that the main point of the storyline is the sorry/not-sorry (unintended/unexpected/yet-predictable) consequences of using violence (one of the most egregious types of levers). 

The "dreariness" of a world without women would seem to be eclipsed by the personal grief of *virtually* every male on the planet losing his wife/mother/daughters/sisters/female-friends overnight (in the personal) and the abrupt if delayed (by a remaining lifespan) existential grief of the end of a spectacular (if clearly flawed, as demonstrated by the central theme) species.   Maybe a (very few?) fully psychotic misogynists found it a pleasing condition (in which case I "blame the Mother" ;^) )

Unlike most post-apocalyptic storytelling, the misery is not (overtly) miserable health crises (nuclear holocaust) or marauding bands (though they did feature) or competition for exhausting resources, or retreating from an angry/disappointed "mother earth", but rather a simple but profound "absence" and incontrovertable "end of humanity", leaving the men of the world to contemplate (or not) how they treated women before they all went away.

<blatant Moralizing>

  If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  Or it's own hubris.  Or under the self-perpetuating seduction of vengeance and retribution: (don't click if you hate poetry)  The People of the Other Village - Thomas Lux

My parents taught me (mostly by example) that punishment of children was at best a necessary last resort, resulting from and reflecting upon a failure of good parenting leading up to the need for acute correction.  They were at least a *little* more direct/vocal about the same principle in public life, that our criminal justice system *only* existed, with it's myriad attempts at exacting justice without revenge and finding clever forms of "punitive retribution" to at least appear like "natural consequences" (not a term in parenting vocabulary at that time quite yet, but practiced by my parents and a few others I knew).  

Our current "Lord of the Flies" scene in DC (and across the country) may require all kinds of exacted punishment to re-align elements of society to where we can live together in relative peace, but to not acknowledge that the mere entertainment of the likes of Donald Trump as a national leader represents an abject failure of our culture to "make sense".   The calls for removal/impeachment/censure/disbarment are all reasonable triage actions to minimize continued damage, even if they are in many ways "too little too late".   But I am saddened as I hear a great deal of the rhetoric on the topic armatured around *retribution* and *vengeance*...

Self-Righteously yours,

- Steve

 

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.

Center for Emergent Diplomacy

emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]

skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @merle110

 

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[thompnickson2]

Dear Merle,

 

So.  Lets make it lively.  Lets consider it.  Pronouns are used for threading, and to give up this function for identity (or ideology) declaration seems too much price to pay.   I understand that this is exactly the kind of Old White Guy (e.g., E. B. White) objection that “intersectional” would deplore.  And I was raised on Charlotte’s Web.  So, the objection is suspect.  But it’s not irrelevant.  I can see that in time we will end up in a situation in which we just have to keep repeating names to keep our speech threaded. 

 

N

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 9:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

Maybe I missed this earlier, but this thread might be more lively if it considers the latest gender conversation: the fluidity of gender as a form of cultural identity.  I have to practice constantly referring to several of my granddaughter's friends as "they", not "she" or "he" or "her" or "him."   

 

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:18 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

 

Well, when good threads are bent, you and I will bend them.

 

Let me complete my thought:  There are two kinds of feminism here, right?  [Merle, please be kind.]  One claims that women are not different, and therefore should be treated equally.  The other claims that women are or may be different but that males’ and females’ natures are to be valued equally.  I have always leaned toward this sort of feminism.  But I see now that, insofar as it captures every woman I meet in a stereotype, this sort of feminism is itself sexist.  Every time I meet a woman, I engage in the following abductive-deductive logic:

 

              This person is wearing a skirt (say) and has long hair (say).

              This person is probably a woman.

              Women are less likely to be aggressive A-holes than men,

              Therefore, I (probably) can relax around this person.

 

There is no escaping the  sexism of this logic. 

 

I listen every week to a podcast, Strict Scrutiny, which begins with the aphorism:

 

I ask no special favor for my sex; I ask only that you take your feet off our necks

 

I was raised near the end of a rural road during WWII.  My only chum, from about 1 year to adolescence was a girl.  After the War, my parents moved to Boston.  Before we were separated, we had a long chat about gender, she and I, and agreed, sadly, that I was lucky to be a guy.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Talent and Moral Luck - Steelman attempt

 

 

nst> Sorry.  You missed my point.  It was—YPTE—introspective.  I was noticing that I could not believe that a world without women was dreary without being a sexist. 

 

nst> Probably not that interesting a thought if one is under 50, or 60, or 70, or perhaps even 80 

and I submit to all that the main point of the storyline is the sorry/not-sorry (unintended/unexpected/yet-predictable) consequences of using violence (one of the most egregious types of levers). 

The "dreariness" of a world without women would seem to be eclipsed by the personal grief of *virtually* every male on the planet losing his wife/mother/daughters/sisters/female-friends overnight (in the personal) and the abrupt if delayed (by a remaining lifespan) existential grief of the end of a spectacular (if clearly flawed, as demonstrated by the central theme) species.   Maybe a (very few?) fully psychotic misogynists found it a pleasing condition (in which case I "blame the Mother" ;^) )

Unlike most post-apocalyptic storytelling, the misery is not (overtly) miserable health crises (nuclear holocaust) or marauding bands (though they did feature) or competition for exhausting resources, or retreating from an angry/disappointed "mother earth", but rather a simple but profound "absence" and incontrovertable "end of humanity", leaving the men of the world to contemplate (or not) how they treated women before they all went away.

<blatant Moralizing>

  If Marcus' nihilist view that "it is all levers" is more true than not, it explains why this grand experiment of "civilization" seems to be collapsing into a cesspool of it's own making, under it's own weight.  Or it's own hubris.  Or under the self-perpetuating seduction of vengeance and retribution: (don't click if you hate poetry)  The People of the Other Village - Thomas Lux

My parents taught me (mostly by example) that punishment of children was at best a necessary last resort, resulting from and reflecting upon a failure of good parenting leading up to the need for acute correction.  They were at least a *little* more direct/vocal about the same principle in public life, that our criminal justice system *only* existed, with it's myriad attempts at exacting justice without revenge and finding clever forms of "punitive retribution" to at least appear like "natural consequences" (not a term in parenting vocabulary at that time quite yet, but practiced by my parents and a few others I knew).  

Our current "Lord of the Flies" scene in DC (and across the country) may require all kinds of exacted punishment to re-align elements of society to where we can live together in relative peace, but to not acknowledge that the mere entertainment of the likes of Donald Trump as a national leader represents an abject failure of our culture to "make sense".   The calls for removal/impeachment/censure/disbarment are all reasonable triage actions to minimize continued damage, even if they are in many ways "too little too late".   But I am saddened as I hear a great deal of the rhetoric on the topic armatured around *retribution* and *vengeance*...

Self-Righteously yours,

- Steve

 

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @merle110

 

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