Re: comm. (was Re: FW: Re:Emergence Seminar--BritishEmergence)
Locked
1 ...
3456
1 ...
3456
 
|
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 05:37:00PM -0700, glen e. p. ropella wrote:
> Thus spake russell standish circa 09-09-22 05:06 PM: > > I still don't follow why circular causality is required, although it > > is an interesting class of systems. So long as > > the two languages are lexically mismatched, that suffices, as there > > are behaviours (eg flocking) inexpressible in the reduced language. > > Well, remember that this is all speculation on my part. I could easily > be wrong about all this. However, the reason I think circular causality > is necessary is because if the construction is built up from a single, > consistent language, then all one need do is show that the other > language is isomorphic to the first (or find a new language where that's > the case) and any apparent "complexity" is proven illusory. However, if > the system is constructed with mismatched languages, in the first place, > then it's no simple task to find a 3rd language that is isomorphic to > the composition of the languages from which the system is constructed. > > I.e. for "strong" or "real" complexity, we need something that is > _constructed_ with mismatched languages, not merely constructed with a > single coherent one and operated on by another. > > And the only way to construct a system with mismatched languages is to > embed one (different, mismatched) language inside another ... i.e. for > one part of the system to use the results of an (inaccurate) operator as > part of its mechanism. > > All this boils down to is that circular systems are not reducible beyond > the elements of the circle. And if the circle is expressed in a single, > consistent language, then the circle can be formulated nicely and isn't > complex, which is why we need the language mismatch. > Its sometimes worth discussing examples. A thermodynamic system is described by its therodynamic state, which has amongst its properties entropy. Entropy has the peculiar property of almost always increasing in time, name the second law of thermodynamics governs it evolution. Thermodynamic language is obviously lexically mismatched with the Newtonian language of particles, positions and momenta, which describe a time reversible system. How do I create a language that can embed both thermodynamics and newtonian mechanics? It seems impossible to me, given their incommensurability. Second, where are there causal loops in this example? I can't see any. Therefore, is a thermodynamic system complex according to GEPR? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email] Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
Thus spake Russ Abbott circa 09/22/2009 05:53 PM:
> If you are going to dismiss that then > what's the point of this discussion? None. I'm done. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Russell Standish
Thus spake russell standish circa 09/22/2009 07:37 PM:
> Thermodynamic language is obviously lexically mismatched > with the Newtonian language of particles, positions and momenta, which > describe a time reversible system. It's not clear to me that they're lexically mismatched. The lexicon in both cases consists of points in real cartesian space, force, mass, momenta, etc. The difference, I suppose lies in thermodynamics being statistical aggregates of the base language? What is it in thermodynamics that can't be formulated in the same language as Newtonian dynamics? Note that I'm not asking what assumptions, written in the language, apply under reversible versus irreversible systems. I'm asking what can't be written in terms of the same language? -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Doug has found the fundamental answer to all of our questions by synchronous
morphic resonance? Whow. Maybe his parrot farm is just a nickname for a huge subterranean data center which dwarfs Google's latest and biggest versions? I am impressed. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Smith To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ABMs and Psychology I think you've hit upon the fundamental answer to all of our questions, philosphical (synchronicity vs emergence and epistimology vs cosmology), technological (what is the bestest language for OO or ABM development), psychological (variations on homunculus talk), mathematical (is solving Goldbach's conjecture fundamentally more important than Fermat's last theorem?), and practical (is it too late for coffee yet too early for beer? And in what Time Zone?) All of these FRIAM discussions do seem to be about infinite horizons and somebody always demands that we return to experiences. Amazing... Synchronicity *and* Morphic Resonance all rolled into one! ;-} Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
That's right. And I am now permitted to share the answer with you:
42. No, no. Don't thank me, thank that other master of synchronicity: Douglas Adams. ;-} --Doug On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote: Doug has found the fundamental answer to all of our questions by synchronous morphic resonance? Whow. Maybe his parrot farm is just a nickname for a huge subterranean data center which dwarfs Google's latest and biggest versions? I am impressed. -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
I know most of you don't care about this any more, but one more clarification anyway.
Glen has criticized the use of the term level. When I use it, I'm really reaferring to a level of abstraction, not what one might think of as a "level of reality" as if there were stratified levels of reality, which is not my position. -- Russ A On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: That's right. And I am now permitted to share the answer with you: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
Thus spake Jochen Fromm circa 09-09-23 12:55 PM:
> Maybe his parrot farm is just a > nickname for a huge subterranean data center which dwarfs Google's > latest and biggest versions? I am impressed. I figured it was named parrot-farm to indicate that it's a huge server farm with each machine (parrot) running an eddington typewriter ... perhaps the parrots even compete to find the best gobbledygook to fit the query? -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Hey, don't knock it! Fully half of my parrots (14 at present) are *way* smarter than I am.
I'm not embarrassed by this, it is simply one of life's many humbling facts. Further, I contend that one cannot fully appreciate alien intelligence until you've had an African Grey calmly look you in the eye, then casually reach down and BITE THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR THUMB and then (still) calmly look you in the eye again and say, "Ow, Butthead." --Doug On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote: Thus spake Jochen Fromm circa 09-09-23 12:55 PM: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Hey, don't knock it! Fully half of my parrots (14 at present) are *way* smarter than I am. Is this the same thumb you whacked the shit out of with your hammer? Or is it one of the other ones? How many thumbs do you have? Do you have a fixation on thumbs? Or is that just me? I knew there was something odd last time you held out the tumbler and asked for two fingers and the bottle of Jamesons went empty before I got to that measure... odd that. And since I've met your parrots, can you describe which one you call "Random Philosophy Generator"? That one definitely has us all beat with his wisdom... Was he/she formerly known as Eliza? - Steve
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Steve, Steve, Steve:
How many times do I need to explain this to you? Jamesons is highly volatile -- it quickly evaporates if you're careless about where you leave the bottle (like within arm's reach, for example).
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Steve,
Have you ever noticed that after either you or I posts something to FRIAM, it gets ominously quiet for an awkward, uncomfortable interim? Kinda nice, isn't it? Academics obviously aren't used to having their envelops pushed. ;-] ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
We're all asking ourselves where the Jameson's went. That's why we're quiet.
On Sep 23, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: Steve, "I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." Steve Martin ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Alimentary, my dear McCorcduck. Alimentary.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Pamela McCorduck
Actually, I was looking for mine ...
Birch -- "Nature is trying very hard to make us succeed, but nature does not depend on us. We are not the only experiment." - Buckminster Fuller **** Use of advanced messaging technology does not imply **** ***** an endorsement of western industrial civilization ***** On Sep 23, 2009, at 8:18 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
Doug,
My envelope is just find. But I do think I have been well paid back for my verbosity.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
«
Return to Friam
|
1 view|%1 views
| Free forum by Nabble | Edit this page |