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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

If you're asking me the question, then you're probably asking the wrong person. You'd most likely be better off asking a priest. Or a psychologist.

--Doug

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:36 AM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote:

beliefs of a patient? And more refined, does the condition of the
patient matter? E.g. I can see how bursting my friend, who is getting
accupuncture for her neck pain, might help her. But how about a 50 year
old prostate cancer patient with a good prognosis? Versus a 98 year old
emphysema patient?

-

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glen ropella

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/25/2013 12:09 PM:
> If you're asking me the question, then you're probably asking the wrong
> person. You'd most likely be better off asking a priest. Or a psychologist.

No, I wasn't asking you. History has taught me that you won't
contribute. But I do believe there are those on the list who might.

--
=><= glen e. p. ropella
Shut me off 'cause I go crazy with this planet in my hands

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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

You know, Glen, you can be a bit of an asshole at times. History has taught me this.

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 1:13 PM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/25/2013 12:09 PM:

> If you're asking me the question, then you're probably asking the wrong
> person. You'd most likely be better off asking a priest. Or a psychologist.

No, I wasn't asking you. History has taught me that you won't
contribute. But I do believe there are those on the list who might.

--
=><= glen e. p. ropella

Shut me off 'cause I go crazy with this planet in my hands

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Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Nick Thompson

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by glen ropella

Glen wrote:

The trick is whether the _cattle_ who are heading toward their slaughter are self-aware enough to understand that they're going to die

Point taken. But, you know. Just to wax philosophical in exactly the sense that enrages Doug, I don't think we know our own death's, do we? We know bereavement, we know illness and pain and decline, but we don't know death. So, when the Death Escort accompanies me to the Doors of Death, s/he will not know any more about where I am going than the Judas Steer. There is, so far as I know, no point of view that is the point of view of the dead. I always fantasize that the hardest thing about being told one is going to die in N weeks is what to do in the meantime, given that I have no future. (Speaks the true Apollonian; no Dionysian I) Now, that's where a Death Escort might come in handy.

Being a diabetic, I plan to eat a lot of hot-fudge sundaes, but beyond that I have no plans.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/25/2013 12:02 PM:

> A question for the person who speaks of escorting somebody into death.

> I confess, being old, I quite like the concept. But I guess we have

> to remember that such an escort is always a Judas steer.

I could not disagree with you more. We're _all_ going to die. You may not believe that, but it's true. The trick is whether the _cattle_ who are heading toward their slaughter are self-aware enough to understand that they're going to die and that they have some control over how it happens.

That's nothing like a judas steer.

=><= glen e. p. ropella

I'm seeing nowhere through the eyes of a lie

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Steve Smith

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Doug wrote:
> The intent was to produce a pragmatic perspective, not a philosophical
> one. By avoiding the telling of escapist fantasy-world fairy tails in
> the first place, there will be less untruth to deal with at later
> stages in life.
Both of my daughters (now 31, 33) were raised under the teaching of the
Catholic Church with my (athiest) company at weekly Mass and discussions
*after* each Catechism class for the first dozen years of their lives or
so. I avoided undermining the teaching, provided as much sounding board
and reference material as they could take, listened and watched. Their
mother was Catholic but cherry picked what she wanted from it, mostly
absolution for the most part, I think. I had nothing to offer except
my own example of how I lived and what I valued. While my
mother-in-law insisted that I was a "Secular Humanist", I was not that
either, though I can see how she might think so.

They both declined Confirmation on it's own merits and drifted from the
community fairly quickly. Their mother accepted it pretty well, I
think their grandmother may have had a couple of mini-strokes as a
result, but by that time they weren't listening to her raving much anyway.

They had in fact, attained the Age of Reason and were using it
effectively, just as their Catechism classes had been teaching them to
do. They had no more trouble sorting out the fictions of the Catholic
Church in the long run than they did getting over the Tooth Fairy, The
Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. They came to their own understanding of
these fictions and perhaps even *why* some of those close to them held
them dearly. While I might have spoken directly against the religion of
their Mothers origins, I chose not to. And in fact I learned a great
deal by attending Mass for over a decade. The two priests who attended
for most of that time were deeply thoughtful people who managed to
always provide a strong humanist perspective within the context of their
chosen religion.

My daughters today both exist outside the framework of organized
religions, would almost surely say they did not "believe in God" or more
to the point, they would not say that they "do believe in God" (Or Jesus
or Allah or Yahweh or Kali or Vishnu or Haile Sallasie...) and do not
seem to have the need to mumble things about "Higher Power", etc.

I was worried for a time that they might be good candidates for the
neo-religions that my own generation was full of (American Buddhism,
Sikhism, Jainism, Taoism, Newage this-n-that, Moonies, Krishnas,
Trancendental Meditation, etc.). I was worried that their exposure to
a formal religion and the rituals of it had established patterns that
would need to be met somewhere else. On the opposite end, I was worried
that their "failed" religious experience might leave them empty, without
meaning, etc.

As far as I can tell, I needn't worry on either account. If I had to
do it over, I might not do any different... I might choose a different
mother for my children (she left us about the time the girls attained
the Age of Reason, but remained involved with them to this day) who I
could have raised children within a more consistent framework of
belief/non-belief. But I think it all came out fine, early fairy-tales
and all...

And as *fairy tales* go, I think that our contemporary
modern/post-modern narcissistic pop-culture system of beliefs is
insidiously and equally dangerous. The myths of free markets, of the
centrality of capital, of socialism and communism, of consumerism,
drugs-are-good/drugs-are-evil, of neoconservative (sans religion) and of
neoliberal politics... *ALL* of these do damage too... maybe not as
acute as the crusades or jihad but just as laced with "fairy tales" as
Doug calls them.

More on Death and Dying under separate cover.

- Steve

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glen ropella

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

That's an excellent 3 way split. I don't have any data to suggest what
percentage of patients ask for opinions. But many people seem to trust
the authority of the medical industrial complex. They take the drugs
they're told to take, have the surgeries their specialists recommend,
etc. So, my guess is that even _if_, for example, a hospice nurse or
doctor isn't specifically asked the question, their manner and the other
things they say and the tone they use, has an effect on the patients
world view.

As for the uninterested professional, most of these, if they're
professional at all, are trained to consider the spirituality of their
patient in treating them. So, even if they're personally uninterested,
they should be professionally interested ... otherwise they're
considered unprofessional. It's easy to summon the imam (or whatever),
because they ask you, pointedly, your affiliation when you check in.
So, the extent of the professional consideration is usually limited to
deciding when to summon the spiritual guidance. But that doesn't
address the fact that patients who are awake still hear the ancillary
conversation of the staff around them.

Renee's (mostly) a Christian, which results in lots of interesting
conversations between us. But she often asks me for my opinion on
interesting ethical dilemmas that come up at work. (Cthulu only knows
why she would ask me... I guess cause there's nobody else in the room.)
So, from my perspective, it's more a systemic question. With media
reports of "death panels" and Obamacare, etc. the issues start to take
on a reality I wouldn't ordinarily perceive.

Your last answer is the best, I think. And with hospice care, it may
even apply to professional-patient relationships. I've been hunting for
a new home for my mom if/when she finally can't live independently. And
the facilities where the staff is simultaneously professional, but
willing to (at least simulate) a partnership with the residents, seem
best to me.

Marcus G. Daniels wrote at 04/25/2013 11:15 AM:

> If the patient is asking a for an opinion, and the nurse has no reason
> to think the patient's mental faculties are especially compromised, then
> I think it is best to engage honestly. It could distract them from
> their physical condition.
>
> If the patient is asserting a bunch of random fundamentalist nutcase
> things about the nature of the universe and forcing the engagement of an
> otherwise uninterested professional, then that patient could be in the
> `burst' side of a side-by-side study. (In the case of being an
> employee of a hospital with a religious affiliation, this could be
> professionally risky.)
>
> If it is not a patient, but a relative or friend, then perhaps the best
> thing to do is to direct the conversation to shared journey together and
> not on a debate on the extent to which it will end.

--
=><= glen e. p. ropella
From the frozen depths of a forgotten fjord,

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glen ropella

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Parks, Raymond

Parks, Raymond wrote at 04/25/2013 11:36 AM:
> We have several WWs at Sandia - I wonder how they received the news of
> their injuries? Combat injuries are surely a possible research pool to
> answer the question of tell or hide. A surgeon from either Beth Israel
> or Mass General said that marathon bombing victims were so happy to be
> alive that their limb loss didn't faze them.

That would be a great question to ask at the VFW. Sadly, not having
served in the military makes it awkward for me to ask. I've found the
younger vets to be more open to conversations with me. The older ones
just clamp up and offer to buy me a beer.

I've heard some news stories about how soldiers often don't seek
treatment for PTSD due to the stigma and, to a lesser extent, the risk
of being taken off duty. But the stigma seems more important. That
hearsay makes me worry that machismo might prevent accurate
self-assessment of belief bubble bursting with vets. So, a longitudinal
experiment would be appropriate, I think. I have no idea what objective
measures of spirituality could be taken, though.

And I think it would have to be a large population, too. I can't shake
the feeling that if there is a psychosomatic medical affect on patient
outcome, it's going to be statistically difficult to show.

--
=><= glen e. p. ropella
You gotta go where this is headed

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glen ropella

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

No, of course not. Perhaps "death escort" is a misnomer and "dying
escort" would be better?

To me, as a society, we bear the responsibility to make every dying
person (i.e. every person) aware of the _possibilities_ that might
obtain as we approach death. Or, if the person is a "higher power" type,
then at least make sure they know the information is available, even if
they refuse to explore it.

That can mean anything from assisted suicide to knowing that good oral
hygiene drastically increases quality of life. The point of my
introducing that doctors often sign DNRs for themselves was to raise the
point that many (especially elderly) patients may not be aware of the
low success rate, what it means to finish your life with cracked ribs
(and associated stupifying pain killers), as well as where their loved
ones might stand on the issues.

So, while I understand your philosophical issue, I think there are more
important ways we can tweak the system right now, to see how it works
and try to improve it. And the timing is right as the healthcare market
is flooded with baby boomers.

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/25/2013 12:29 PM:

> Point taken. But, you know. Just to wax philosophical in exactly the
> sense that enrages Doug, I don't think we know our own death's, do we?
> We know bereavement, we know illness and pain and decline, but we don't
> know death. So, when the Death Escort accompanies me to the Doors of
> Death, s/he will not know any more about where I am going than the Judas
> Steer. There is, so far as I know, no point of view that is the point
> of view of the dead. I always fantasize that the hardest thing about
> being told one is going to die in N weeks is what to do in the meantime,
> given that I have no future. (Speaks the true Apollonian; no Dionysian
> I) Now, that's where a Death Escort might come in handy.
>
> Being a diabetic, I plan to eat a lot of hot-fudge sundaes, but beyond
> that I have no plans.

Steve Smith

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by glen ropella

Q: glen wrote:
> So, the question remains, is there a medical benefit to bursting the
> beliefs of a patient? And more refined, does the condition of the
> patient matter? E.g. I can see how bursting my friend, who is getting
> accupuncture for her neck pain, might help her. But how about a 50
> year old prostate cancer patient with a good prognosis? Versus a 98
> year old emphysema patient?
A: I have no doubt in the efficacy of placebos. What I doubt is
whether we have any sense about when to die or when to let another die.

Fairy-tales or not, the belief in an afterlife has allowed generations
of people to let go and die when their bodies no longer can hack it
without significant intervention. As recently as my grandparents
generation, people died when their pastor or priest came to them and
told them it was ok to die now.... gave them some last rites, etc...
they died within hours of that kind of "permission". They also died of
strokes and heart attacks without such permission. But for those left
behind, it was "God's will". I don't begrudge them these "Fairy
Tales". A few died long and lingering deaths, but by that time, it was
in a morphine haze. Also "God's Will" one presumes.

My challenge (for myself, my wife, and maybe by my example/extension my
peers, my children, etc.) is how to slip away gracefully without
that. I have two older peers who have left gracefully in the last few
years after a modest but not excruciatingly contrived struggle with
(presumed) terminal illnesses. They chose their time and place, but
most of all they chose not to struggle. Neither had benefit of a belief
in an afterlife, whether that be Harps and Clouds, Valhalla or Happy
Hunting Grounds.

My father died this year after most of a decade of dementia. He could
have lived longer. He could have died earlier. My mother's emotional
and practical care of him kept him here much longer than he would have
otherwise. He died within 2 months of her own needing a similar level
of care after a fall. She still had two meals a day with him and was
there to tuck him in at bedtime, being housed on the opposite side of
the same nursing home. But graciously, he took a left turn very
quickly at this point. It wasn't the drugs the doctors threw at him
that kept him alive, it was having someone there asking him to stay with
her every hour of every day.

My wife's father went roughly the same way. He was a poster child for
Alzheimers. Bright, cooperative, charming and always game to pretend he
knew what was going on, who you were, etc. Right up until he couldn't
focus his eyes and had to be reminded to swallow each hand-fed bite of
food. He had two emergency interventions fairly early in his
dementia... a seizure and pneumonia. Either would probably have killed
him without emergency response. The second incident, he was rescued in
spite of blatant DNR statements all around him. My wife and her mother
both agree that they would have allowed him to go at that point if they
had it to do again. Both of them have stated in no uncertain terms that
this is what they would want.

Both of my parents were adamant in the same way while they were still
highly viable. But once they went past a certain point, they
effectively have been clinging to a life they formerly would have said
was not worth living... who can say really?

The neoCon rhetoric about "death panels" drives me up the wall, and so
does all of the talk that suggests we have the right to live forever, or
that we would even want to. We have lost the benefit of a "cycle of
life" including death (and possibly afterlife/rebirth) and have tried to
replace it with a very secular and technological immortality.

Maybe once effective immortality is achieved, I would think differently,
but for now, it seems as suspicious (or inhumane?) than the Fairy Tale
of an afterlife or of a series of rebirths. I have neither the benefit
nor the burden of either "easy way out", but I don't feel in any
position to begrudge those who do.

- Steve

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Robert Holmes-3

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

Steve's post made me think of the Roger McGough poem "Let me die a youngman's death":

Let me die a youngman's death
not a clean and inbetween
the sheets holywater death

not a famous-last-words
peaceful out of breath death

When I'm 73
and in constant good tumour
may I be mown down at dawn
by a bright red sports car

on my way home
from an allnight party

Or when I'm 91
with silver hair
and sitting in a barber's chair
may rival gangsters

with hamfisted tommyguns burst in
and give me a short back and insides

Or when I'm 104
and banned from the Cavern
may my mistress
catching me in bed with her daughter
and fearing for her son
cut me up into little pieces
and throw away every piece but one

Let me die a youngman's death
not a free from sin tiptoe in
candle wax and waning death
not a curtains drawn by angels borne
'what a nice way to go' death

Nick Thompson

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by glen ropella

Oh. Ok. Thanks, glen. I was, in fact, being annoying in exactly the way
Doug or Owen would accuse me of.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

No, of course not. Perhaps "death escort" is a misnomer and "dying escort"
would be better?

To me, as a society, we bear the responsibility to make every dying person
(i.e. every person) aware of the _possibilities_ that might obtain as we
approach death. Or, if the person is a "higher power" type, then at least
make sure they know the information is available, even if they refuse to
explore it.

That can mean anything from assisted suicide to knowing that good oral
hygiene drastically increases quality of life. The point of my introducing
that doctors often sign DNRs for themselves was to raise the point that many
(especially elderly) patients may not be aware of the low success rate, what
it means to finish your life with cracked ribs (and associated stupifying
pain killers), as well as where their loved ones might stand on the issues.

So, while I understand your philosophical issue, I think there are more
important ways we can tweak the system right now, to see how it works and
try to improve it. And the timing is right as the healthcare market is
flooded with baby boomers.

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/25/2013 12:29 PM:

> Point taken. But, you know. Just to wax philosophical in exactly the
> sense that enrages Doug, I don't think we know our own death's, do we?
> We know bereavement, we know illness and pain and decline, but we
> don't know death. So, when the Death Escort accompanies me to the
> Doors of Death, s/he will not know any more about where I am going
> than the Judas Steer. There is, so far as I know, no point of view
> that is the point of view of the dead. I always fantasize that the
> hardest thing about being told one is going to die in N weeks is what
> to do in the meantime, given that I have no future. (Speaks the true
> Apollonian; no Dionysian
> I) Now, that's where a Death Escort might come in handy.
>
> Being a diabetic, I plan to eat a lot of hot-fudge sundaes, but
> beyond that I have no plans.

--
=><= glen e. p. ropella
Slowly, broken windows returning to the sand

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

And this is roughly what I like about both of you. A strong sense of self...

And Nick's good natured desire to arbitrate as well.

Carry on!
- Steve

You know, Glen, you can be a bit of an asshole at times. History has taught me this.

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 1:13 PM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Douglas Roberts wrote at 04/25/2013 12:09 PM:

> If you're asking me the question, then you're probably asking the wrong
> person. You'd most likely be better off asking a priest. Or a psychologist.

No, I wasn't asking you. History has taught me that you won't
contribute. But I do believe there are those on the list who might.

--
=><= glen e. p. ropella

Shut me off 'cause I go crazy with this planet in my hands

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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile
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Steve Smith

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes-3

+2
Robert Holmes wrote:

Steve's post made me think of the Roger McGough poem "Let me die a youngman's death":

Let me die a youngman's death

not a clean and inbetween

the sheets holywater death

not a famous-last-words

peaceful out of breath death

When I'm 73

and in constant good tumour

may I be mown down at dawn

by a bright red sports car

on my way home

from an allnight party

Or when I'm 91

with silver hair

and sitting in a barber's chair

may rival gangsters

with hamfisted tommyguns burst in

and give me a short back and insides

Or when I'm 104

and banned from the Cavern

may my mistress

catching me in bed with her daughter

and fearing for her son

cut me up into little pieces

and throw away every piece but one

Let me die a youngman's death

not a free from sin tiptoe in

candle wax and waning death

not a curtains drawn by angels borne

'what a nice way to go' death
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Victoria Hughes

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes-3

Ah….

This and Steve's preceeding note are the most useful, humane comment so far in this thread.

Thanks, Robert.

Tory

On Apr 25, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve's post made me think of the Roger McGough poem "Let me die a youngman's death":

Let me die a youngman's death
not a clean and inbetween
the sheets holywater death

not a famous-last-words
peaceful out of breath death

When I'm 73
and in constant good tumour
may I be mown down at dawn
by a bright red sports car

on my way home
from an allnight party

Or when I'm 91
with silver hair
and sitting in a barber's chair
may rival gangsters

with hamfisted tommyguns burst in
and give me a short back and insides

Or when I'm 104
and banned from the Cavern
may my mistress
catching me in bed with her daughter
and fearing for her son
cut me up into little pieces
and throw away every piece but one

Let me die a youngman's death
not a free from sin tiptoe in
candle wax and waning death
not a curtains drawn by angels borne
'what a nice way to go' death
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick -

As much as this crowd (the vocal subset) likes to speculate (self acutely implicated) about all kinds of things, I suspect that for many of us, this speculation is anything but idle.   I don't know our precise demographics but I believe we are top loaded with many over-60's which means that most of us have been preceded in death by at least one parent, maybe a sibling, a spouse, or other peers and in some cases even, a child or protege.   This is not academic, it is real and personal.

I also think (as Glen points out?) the baby-boom hump slamming into the health care system and society at large is a very real phenomenon which society at large (boomers and our children in particular) will have to deal with very personally.

I like your use of the term "Death Escort" and don't know if I accept Glen's quibble of "Dying Escort", though I suppose it is literally more accurate except maybe in the case of suicide pacts.   I feel that my wife, her mother, and I (with minor help from the other 7 children and some professional caregivers) escorted her father to the gates of death as graciously as could be asked. In another time, he might have been allowed a tattered blanket and a place on the ice floe or in a lean-to far enough from camp to not have to worry about his ghost or evil spirits (germs?) to visit the camp itself. This too, if part of the social contract he lived within, would have been graceful as well.

My own father was fast-marched off by an overworked, underpaid, and sadly calloused system that knew only how to change his diaper and alarm his wheelchair. My mother and sister tried to attend, but not to his death, to keeping him here until ... well... I don't know. I myself tried to attend him to his death, but was trumped (as it should be) by his lifetime partner's wishes to keep him present.   I spent a week alone with him each year, including by circumstance the week after my mother's fall. Up until this last session, I spent the week encouraging him to tell what stories he had left in him, even though I had heard them many times.   It felt to be an important part of helping him wind down and wind up. In my last week alone with him, he was no longer able to articulate anything but his constant state of sheer puzzlement about who/what/where he was. So instead of escorting him on toward the gates of death, I escorted him through a daily grind of confusion and visits to his life-partner who he no longer knew, but seemed to recognize in some distant way.   But I did that for her, not him.   For him, a more graceful thing to do would have been to help him fill his pockets with rocks and go for a swim in the lake. (This is a line my wife and I used with each other during her Fathers long escort unto death... "are those rocks in your pockets, are are you just going for a swim?") In their lucid years, both of them would have professed to want this.

Many here probably feel they would not be alive today (or would be badly maimed or compromised) if not for the medical system. Others probably have worked within it or chosen partners who have.    So I know it is confrontational to many to suggest that the Medical System (from the AMA to Medical School to the Insurance Industry and Pharma (big, medium or small)) is as much a threat to our (spiritual if not physical) health as anything.   I still use over the counter medicines (Ibuprofen, VitC, H2O2,...) and would probably ask a medical professional to set my leg if I were to break it, or maybe even throw me some antibiotics if I were to obtain an infection that appeared to be beyond the capability of my own immune system and metabolism to cope.    But beyond that I am very leery of a system that needs us to have bought into it at so many levels (financially, personally, practically, emotionally, ???). In my estimation, it is no better than our (broken) financial system and our (deeply compromised) political system.   I do NOT have 911 in my speed dial.

In response to Nick's statement about being given a formal death sentence (with a date)... I know people who have used this information to very good effect, and others for whom it was devastating.

I used to ask myself two questions: "What would I do today if I knew I were going to die tomorrow?" and "What would I do today if I knew I were going to live forever?".   The answers have always been remarkably similar and just to be snarky, one would think neither question would be answered by "Write a massive missive to FRIAM"; yet, somehow my behaviour suggests otherwise.   Or is it just a question of "the excluded middle"? I suppose I have nothing better to do?

Which reminds me!

Toodles,
- Steve
PS. Enjoy those Sundays... while I indulge myself in one final cathartic 50 page posting to FRIAM, where I tell everyone here "what I *really* think!" ;)

Glen wrote:

The trick is whether the _cattle_ who are heading toward their slaughter are self-aware enough to understand that they're going to die

Point taken. But, you know. Just to wax philosophical in exactly the sense that enrages Doug, I don't think we know our own death's, do we? We know bereavement, we know illness and pain and decline, but we don't know death. So, when the Death Escort accompanies me to the Doors of Death, s/he will not know any more about where I am going than the Judas Steer. There is, so far as I know, no point of view that is the point of view of the dead. I always fantasize that the hardest thing about being told one is going to die in N weeks is what to do in the meantime, given that I have no future. (Speaks the true Apollonian; no Dionysian I) Now, that's where a Death Escort might come in handy.

Being a diabetic, I plan to eat a lot of hot-fudge sundaes, but beyond that I have no plans.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/25/2013 12:02 PM:

> A question for the person who speaks of escorting somebody into death.

> I confess, being old, I quite like the concept. But I guess we have

> to remember that such an escort is always a Judas steer.

I could not disagree with you more. We're _all_ going to die. You may not believe that, but it's true. The trick is whether the _cattle_ who are heading toward their slaughter are self-aware enough to understand that they're going to die and that they have some control over how it happens.

That's nothing like a judas steer.

--

=><= glen e. p. ropella

I'm seeing nowhere through the eyes of a lie

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Dean Gerber

Re: bursting the placebo bubble

In reply to this post by Victoria Hughes

Ah yes, ah yes!

Better hung for a wolf than a sheep

From: Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bursting the placebo bubble

Ah….

This and Steve's preceeding note are the most useful, humane comment so far in this thread.

Thanks, Robert.

Tory

On Apr 25, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve's post made me think of the Roger McGough poem "Let me die a youngman's death":

Let me die a youngman's death
not a clean and inbetween
the sheets holywater death

not a famous-last-words
peaceful out of breath death

When I'm 73
and in constant good tumour
may I be mown down at dawn
by a bright red sports car

on my way home
from an allnight party

Or when I'm 91
with silver hair
and sitting in a barber's chair
may rival gangsters

with hamfisted tommyguns burst in
and give me a short back and insides

Or when I'm 104
and banned from the Cavern
may my mistress
catching me in bed with her daughter
and fearing for her son
cut me up into little pieces
and throw away every piece but one

Let me die a youngman's death
not a free from sin tiptoe in
candle wax and waning death
not a curtains drawn by angels borne
'what a nice way to go' death
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glen ep ropella

Re: scientific evidence

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Thanks for that recommendation! It's a great little book.

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 04/10/2013 09:17 AM:
> By the way, there is a truly excellent summary of Peirce's thought,
> called */On Peirce/* ... just a hundred pages ... and expensive for all
> of that ... just a pamphlet, really, .... but worth every penny, by
> Cornelis DeWaal (Wadsworth). My Peirce mentor also approves of it.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com
As it is most honourable to be an onlooker without making any
acquisition, so in life, the contemplation of all things and the quest
to know them greatly exceed every other pursuit. -- Pythagoras

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