Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

[Owen Densmore]

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

   -- Owen 

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

   -- Owen 

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

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[Paul Paryski]

Owen,

What you are perhaps missing is the complexity of politics and the emergence of extremism everywhere in response to anger and frustration with the conditions in which people are forced to live.  This, alas, includes the US and the rise of the extreme right which seems to have somewhat taken control of the Republican Party.  One might ask why people in the US don't apologize for all the wrongs that the US has committed in the rest of the world and maybe still be doing so.

Chaos results in emergence and self-organization some of which is pretty nasty.

One tends to forget all the massacres committed by the church, e.g. the inquisition, forced conversion of colonized peoples and the rise of Hitler and its consequences.

Ah humanity....

cheers, Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
To: Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 11:01 am
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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[Russ Abbott]

Here are two statements: one by the Prime Minister of Libya, which is pretty much everything you would want; the other is by the President of Egypt, which is not so strong, but not terrible either.

 

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________

  Professor, Computer Science
  California State University, Los Angeles

  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
  Google voice: 747-999-5105

  Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

  vita:  sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

  CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________ 

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Paul Paryski <[hidden email]> wrote:

Owen,

What you are perhaps missing is the complexity of politics and the emergence of extremism everywhere in response to anger and frustration with the conditions in which people are forced to live.  This, alas, includes the US and the rise of the extreme right which seems to have somewhat taken control of the Republican Party.  One might ask why people in the US don't apologize for all the wrongs that the US has committed in the rest of the world and maybe still be doing so.

Chaos results in emergence and self-organization some of which is pretty nasty.

One tends to forget all the massacres committed by the church, e.g. the inquisition, forced conversion of colonized peoples and the rise of Hitler and its consequences.

Ah humanity....

cheers, Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
To: Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 11:01 am
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Bruce Sherwood]

Also, as I understand it, one of the hopeful developments in recent
years is that there HAS emerged significant push-back in the Muslim
world to the fundamentalist extremists. A related development is that
there has been growing Muslim hostility to Al Queda, because they
really don't like Al Queda killing so many innocent people, who
numerically are almost exclusively Muslims.

I'm afraid US coverage has downplayed these developments; they aren't
as dramatic.

Bruce

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[Owen Densmore]

Thanks .. I had heard similar ideas.  Do you have a pointer .. say to an article or site?

   -- Owen

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Bruce Sherwood <[hidden email]> wrote:

Also, as I understand it, one of the hopeful developments in recent
years is that there HAS emerged significant push-back in the Muslim
world to the fundamentalist extremists. A related development is that
there has been growing Muslim hostility to Al Queda, because they
really don't like Al Queda killing so many innocent people, who
numerically are almost exclusively Muslims.

I'm afraid US coverage has downplayed these developments; they aren't
as dramatic.

Bruce

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Bruce Sherwood]

Sorry, I don't have a reference. Just general reading.

Bruce

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks .. I had heard similar ideas.  Do you have a pointer .. say to an
> article or site?
>
>    -- Owen
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Bruce Sherwood <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Also, as I understand it, one of the hopeful developments in recent
>> years is that there HAS emerged significant push-back in the Muslim
>> world to the fundamentalist extremists. A related development is that
>> there has been growing Muslim hostility to Al Queda, because they
>> really don't like Al Queda killing so many innocent people, who
>> numerically are almost exclusively Muslims.
>>
>> I'm afraid US coverage has downplayed these developments; they aren't
>> as dramatic.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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[Dean Gerber]

Owen and all:

The best site by far for all matters on the Middle East is run Juan Cole, a well known History professor at the University of Michigan.  He has many knowledgeable followers who both contribute articles and assist in maintaining accuracy. Today's (Thursday), and his links, give a very good rundown on the attack on the Ambassador and the provoking film.  Here is the link: http://www.juancole.com/.  I have read every one of his posts since he started his blog several months after 9/11.  Always invaluable.

Read! Digest!  Dean Gerber

---

From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

Thanks .. I had heard similar ideas.  Do you have a pointer .. say to an article or site?

   -- Owen

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Bruce Sherwood <[hidden email]> wrote:

Also, as I understand it, one of the hopeful developments in recent
years is that there HAS emerged significant push-back in the Muslim
world to the fundamentalist extremists. A related development is that
there has been growing Muslim hostility to Al Queda, because they
really don't like Al Queda killing so many innocent people, who
numerically are almost exclusively Muslims.

I'm afraid US coverage has downplayed these developments; they aren't
as dramatic.

Bruce

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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[Owen Densmore]

Kofi Annan, in a 2.5 minute discussion w/ Charlie Rose, said it well:

    http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12548

"Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

   -- Owen

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

That is, of course one (somewhat escapist) view on the recent events.

Here's another:  the majority *has* spoken up.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Islamic Fundamentalism.  

But don't worry, there's plenty of Fundamentalism -- Christian-flavored -- to go around for the United States as well.  Just wait until Obama wins in November.  You'll see.

Or, to put it another way: as if the right-wing Christian Republican racism and hatred has not been bad enough already during the past four years, and especially during this presidential campaign, you haven't seen anything yet.

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Kofi Annan, in a 2.5 minute discussion w/ Charlie Rose, said it well:

    http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12548

"Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

   -- Owen

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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

And to punctuate this particular point of view, please see the attached Republican bumper sticker that is all the rage these days in the good ol' USA.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

That is, of course one (somewhat escapist) view on the recent events.

Here's another:  the majority *has* spoken up.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Islamic Fundamentalism.  

But don't worry, there's plenty of Fundamentalism -- Christian-flavored -- to go around for the United States as well.  Just wait until Obama wins in November.  You'll see.

Or, to put it another way: as if the right-wing Christian Republican racism and hatred has not been bad enough already during the past four years, and especially during this presidential campaign, you haven't seen anything yet.

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Kofi Annan, in a 2.5 minute discussion w/ Charlie Rose, said it well:

    http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12548

"Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

   -- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

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[Hussein Abbass]

Owen

 

                While I am an IT professor, I am very backward in using blogs and almost incapable of expressing myself in emails or otherwise. Your question would be better discussed in a long session with lots of coffees and chocolates J

 

                I do not normally put my Moslim hat on; almost never because I see religion as a relationship between me and God that is no one else business. Therefore, my actions are my responsibilities and if I do something good I take the reward personally so why when I do something bad should my religion, or any dimension of my identity be blamed.

 

                But your question was interesting. Not just from complexity perspective, from many other dimensions that once more, writing long emails would not send the right message through.

 

                Sometimes the good Moslims (whatever this means and in whose eyes) do not respond simply because they do not agree with the premise. The premise of the religion as the centre for conflict. The premise that we should be blamed for our belief. The premise that I should spend my time justifying someone else actions simply because there is a perception that I and them share something in common because it is written in my passport or on a system somewhere. If I believe in doing good, I would like to invest my time in that, and not invest my time to defend bad when bad was not my action in the first place.

 

                So call it an ego-centric or whatever, this is I. In Islam, when we do good, we should not talk about it because we are doing it to fulfil a sacred commitment to God. In fact, there is a premise that you should hide the good you are doing to get a better reward from God. This is too complicated to explain in an email!

 

Some of us just do not wish to be bothered to defend or discuss the bad because the time and resources to spend on doing good alone are very limited. The world is full of opportunities to do good, why should we spend the time to discuss the bad!

 

                Sometimes also if we wish to explain concepts properly, you would not do it properly in a simple email or a simple discussion. There are things that can take a long time to understand before we can use them to explain!

 

                If this sounds a weak argument, we have to dig down to the roots to see what defines weak and strong arguments; and that is a long discussion!

 

                If I want to use a complexity lens, the Egyptian reply was a choice they made on a Pareto curve. If someone seriously wishes to understand it, they will need to analyse in details the underlying axes for this Pareto curve, the sources of anti-correlation, and the interaction of the utility functions. Only then, they will see the complex dilemma setting at the roots of this reply as compared to a possibly artificial politically correct reply that some people expect.

 

                If the above is a starting point for a discussion, next time you visit Australia, drop by and we can attempt to resolve it all on a nice cup of coffee with nice dark chocolates J

 

Kind regards

Hussein

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 3:01 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Nick Thompson]

Doesn’t the same apply to the drinking of wine? 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

 

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

Ok, I'll bite.

Why?

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doesn’t the same apply to the drinking of wine? 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

 

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Nick Thompson]

Look at the visual data byte. 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Why?

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doesn’t the same apply to the drinking of wine? 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

 

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

So, wine is the root cause of all our problems?  I think not. I can handle my wine as well as I can handle my religion.

Better, even, given that my religion handling needs are nil.

On Sep 13, 2012 10:06 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Look at the visual data byte. 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Why?

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doesn’t the same apply to the drinking of wine? 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

 

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Nick Thompson]

No, no doug.  Good Lord.  Wino:wine drinking::fanatic:religion.  N

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 12:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

So, wine is the root cause of all our problems?  I think not. I can handle my wine as well as I can handle my religion.

Better, even, given that my religion handling needs are nil.

On Sep 13, 2012 10:06 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Look at the visual data byte. 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Why?

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doesn’t the same apply to the drinking of wine? 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

 

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

That works.

On Sep 13, 2012 10:22 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

No, no doug.  Good Lord.  Wino:wine drinking::fanatic:religion.  N

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 12:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

So, wine is the root cause of all our problems?  I think not. I can handle my wine as well as I can handle my religion.

Better, even, given that my religion handling needs are nil.

On Sep 13, 2012 10:06 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Look at the visual data byte. 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Why?

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doesn’t the same apply to the drinking of wine? 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).

 

--Doug

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW

 

This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists?  At least some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God knows I do!

 

We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the simplicity and beauty of his religion.  Some questions were asked about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor.  The conversation was sane, polite, and certainly informative.

 

What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media?  Or the Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed Dutch cartoonists?

 

What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the rest of us?

 

Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion, but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation.  And Yes, I really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs.  I'm not trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this phenomenon. 

 

What am I missing?  Good complexity question, I bet.

 

   -- Owen 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Steve Smith]

Hussein -

I hear you...   many of us are challenged to defend the name of our God or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic heritage or sexual orientation or hair color or set of our jaw.  Even when  obviously (but superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and to accept them is a fools game.

The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons) are not helping, even if some who act in it's name are doing horrific things.  Those who paint with a broad brush can only slop their own paint on themselves...

From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other".

I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included) that we invoke the terms of Complexity Science but don't often take it anywhere.

Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an agent model based on game theoretic principles that might help to illuminate this phenomenon?  The phenomena of personal vs shared belief, sectarianism, intolerance?   Is there a small subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena that can show a bit of it?

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

Steve,  you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion is the primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group.  That weakness being, again solely in my opinion, an inability or perhaps an unwillingness to face the real substantive, important complexity issues that surround us.

Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some superficial abstract, academic side issue.  It doesn't seem to matter what the particular "complexity" issue du Jour is, the "solution" proposed, but never implemented by the members of this list is *always* some abstract, distancing, academic approach.

Not that I am picking on you, really I am not.  But seriously, are you proposing to use an ABM to explain the societal effects of religious fundamentalism?  That would be a side show.  It would place a level of abstraction between the real issue and the observer which would totally mask the underlying causal issues.

Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to draw whole populations into those belief systems.

You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history books.

And if you want to understand why people are so prone to locking themselves into destructive, exclusive, egocentric world-views, well, good luck with that.   I suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs are not the proper tools for the job.

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hussein -

I hear you...   many of us are challenged to defend the name of our God or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic heritage or sexual orientation or hair color or set of our jaw.  Even when  obviously (but superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and to accept them is a fools game.

The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons) are not helping, even if some who act in it's name are doing horrific things.  Those who paint with a broad brush can only slop their own paint on themselves...

From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other".

I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included) that we invoke the terms of Complexity Science but don't often take it anywhere.

Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an agent model based on game theoretic principles that might help to illuminate this phenomenon?  The phenomena of personal vs shared belief, sectarianism, intolerance?   Is there a small subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena that can show a bit of it?

- Steve

-- 
Los Alamos Visualization Associates
LAVA-Synergy
4200 W. Jemez rd
Los Alamos, NM 87544
www.lava3d.com
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-920-0252

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org