Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

[Owen Densmore]

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do not lead.

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas.

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse.

   -- Owen

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. 

There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.

And this is not about religion?

I don't see it.

Or you don't see it.

What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue.

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of groups and institutions.

When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?

When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.

Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.

So my question stands as Kofi stated:

    "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies.

And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.

   -- Owen

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Well, I'd like to suggest that if in fact they really do deplore the fundamentalist Islamic violence that has been raging around the globe since 9/11 and before, and yet they are not speaking out against it, there are several possible explanations:

- They're cowards
- They're terrified of retribution (not necessarily the same thing as above)
- The deplore violence, but deplore Americans more.
- Oops!  They don't really deplore the acts of violence being carried out in the name of their beloved religion.

--Doug

On Sep 14, 2012 4:30 PM, "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]> wrote:

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do not lead.

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas.

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse.

   -- Owen

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. 

There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.

And this is not about religion?

I don't see it.

Or you don't see it.

What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue.

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of groups and institutions.

When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?

When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.

Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.

So my question stands as Kofi stated:

    "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies.

And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.

   -- Owen

============================================================
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Doug Roberts
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[glen ep ropella]

Or they believe that "speaking out against" it is useless.


Douglas Roberts wrote at 09/14/2012 03:45 PM:

> Well, I'd like to suggest that if in fact they really do deplore the
> fundamentalist Islamic violence that has been raging around the globe since
> 9/11 and before, and yet they are not speaking out against it, there are
> several possible explanations:
>
> - They're cowards
> - They're terrified of retribution (not necessarily the same thing as above)
> - The deplore violence, but deplore Americans more.
> - Oops!  They don't really deplore the acts of violence being carried out
> in the name of their beloved religion.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://tempusdictum.com


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[Joshua Thorp]

But how do we know this?  How would you expect a non-extemist to be heard?  Its not like a non-extremist is going to blow up an extremist group…  Sort of by definition.

Plenty of people have spoken out against the events this week.  But what more can they do?  The bombs are news worthy.  The people speaking out against the bombs just don't have the same bang.

Goes of course for catholics as well.  I constantly hear about another priest having raped another set of children.  I don't hear much about the good acts of catholics,  though I assume their must be plenty -- just doesn't make the news the same way.  

Where have the leadership and majority been on that issue?  I keep hearing about Bishops that have covered up for this or that bad priest,  but are there Bishops speaking out against this behavior?  I bet there are but I don't hear it very often.  And when I do it is said almost matter-of-fact-ly like, 'of course this is wrong'.  

Very much in the same way we hear muslims speaking about extremist violence, 'of course this wrong'.  It just doesn't stick the same way as the images of violence.  

--joshua

On Sep 14, 2012, at 4:29 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do not lead.

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas.

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse.

   -- Owen

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. 

There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.

And this is not about religion?

I don't see it.

Or you don't see it.

What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue.

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of groups and institutions.

When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?

When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.

Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.

So my question stands as Kofi stated:

    "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies.

And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.

   -- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Yes, that goes on the list.

On Sep 14, 2012 4:52 PM, "glen e. p. ropella" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Or they believe that "speaking out against" it is useless.


Douglas Roberts wrote at 09/14/2012 03:45 PM:
> Well, I'd like to suggest that if in fact they really do deplore the
> fundamentalist Islamic violence that has been raging around the globe since
> 9/11 and before, and yet they are not speaking out against it, there are
> several possible explanations:
>
> - They're cowards
> - They're terrified of retribution (not necessarily the same thing as above)
> - The deplore violence, but deplore Americans more.
> - Oops!  They don't really deplore the acts of violence being carried out
> in the name of their beloved religion.


--
glen e. p. ropella, <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]">971-222-9095, http://tempusdictum.com


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

--Doug

On Sep 14, 2012 4:30 PM, "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]> wrote:

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do not lead.

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas.

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse.

   -- Owen

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. 

There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.

And this is not about religion?

I don't see it.

Or you don't see it.

What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue.

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of groups and institutions.

When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?

When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.

Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.

So my question stands as Kofi stated:

    "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies.

And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.

   -- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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============================================================
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[Hussein Abbass]

Joshua, You are spot on. 

I am not sure what we are comparing here. Are we equating bad actions to good actions? Of course this is misleading, because this discussion can only demonstrate our ignorance of all the good actions, Moslims, Christians and all those use Religion to drive them to do good things, are doing allover the world, and our biased attention focus on bad actions.

Maybe the real disagreement in this discussion is on how to lead and leadership models. It seems this is where the problem lies to me and some of us "believe" in one leadership model, while others believe in an opposite model. Some think that leaders should stand in front of bad, while others think that leaders need to focus on growing the good and with conservation laws, the bad shrinks naturally. Maybe we should revisit natural selection and if necessarily make it artificial selection.

Owen: is not it by definition that if you are convinced that there exists a majority of good people that this majority succeeded already to make itself visible to counteract minorities! Or was your talk about majority a mere hypothesis that is yet to be proven?

Cheers

Hussein

On 15/09/2012, at 8:52 AM, "Joshua Thorp" <[hidden email]> wrote:

But how do we know this?  How would you expect a non-extemist to be heard?  Its not like a non-extremist is going to blow up an extremist group…  Sort of by definition.

Plenty of people have spoken out against the events this week.  But what more can they do?  The bombs are news worthy.  The people speaking out against the bombs just don't have the same bang.

Goes of course for catholics as well.  I constantly hear about another priest having raped another set of children.  I don't hear much about the good acts of catholics,  though I assume their must be plenty -- just doesn't make the news the same way.  

Where have the leadership and majority been on that issue?  I keep hearing about Bishops that have covered up for this or that bad priest,  but are there Bishops speaking out against this behavior?  I bet there are but I don't hear it very often.  And when I do it is said almost matter-of-fact-ly like, 'of course this is wrong'.  

Very much in the same way we hear muslims speaking about extremist violence, 'of course this wrong'.  It just doesn't stick the same way as the images of violence.  

--joshua

On Sep 14, 2012, at 4:29 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do not lead.

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas.

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse.

   -- Owen

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. 

There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.

And this is not about religion?

I don't see it.

Or you don't see it.

What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue.

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of groups and institutions.

When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?

When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.

Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.

So my question stands as Kofi stated:

    "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies.

And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.

   -- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="&#43;15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
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============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Nick Thompson]

Ok, owen.  Let’s say I put on a bomb vest, put my FRIAM T-shirt on over it, and blew myself up and 30 soldiers at the military base where that poor schmuk Bradley Manning is being held.  Let’s say, I leave an email circular claiming that I did it in the name of a Free Internet.   The reporter comes to your door, and asks you 3 questions:  “Mr. Densmore: as one of the founding members of FRIAM, how do you respond to this Thompson’s action? AND, “Mr. Densmore, what is your position on the imprisonment (without trial, visitors, etc.) of Bradley Manning?” and “what is FRIAM’s official position on internet freedom?”  I think if you go through this exercise, you will have a hard time NOT sounding one of those Muslim clerics asked about the death of the Ambassador to Libya. 

 

Nick  

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist

 

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

--Doug

On Sep 14, 2012 4:30 PM, "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]> wrote:

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

 

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do not lead.

 

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas.

 

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse.

 

   -- Owen

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. 

 

There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.

 

And this is not about religion?

 

I don't see it.

 

Or you don't see it.

 

What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue.

 

--Doug

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of groups and institutions.

 

When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?

 

When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.

 

Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.

 

So my question stands as Kofi stated:

    "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."

NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies.

 

And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.

 

   -- Owen

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Sarbajit Roy (testing)]

Dear Doug

You're quite right, and there is a huge disconnect.

Nobody on this thread / list is examining the Great Satan who provoked
all of this.

"One nation under GOD" ?
"In God we trust" ??
"God bless America" ???

Whats going on in the Middle East now is just another episode of the
long running sitcom "Crusades 1200 - "  Knight Templars, Freemasons et
al.

What sort of country needs a Constitution amendment requiring free
speech to be backed by force of arms ?

I had suggested on another thread that the US could consider getting
observer status at the OIC seeing as how the US's own population of
Muslims is more than that of 50% of the OIC's member states. Lets see
how many Islamic countries support / block it.

Sarbajit

On 9/14/12, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen.
>
> There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting
> "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats
> because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.
>
> And this is not about religion?
>
> I don't see it.
>
> Or you don't see it.
>
> What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular
> issue.
>
> --Doug
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all.  The question is of
>> groups and institutions.
>>
>> When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the
>> entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?
>>
>> When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at
>> Georgia
>> Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so.  Many NRA
>> members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes.
>>  Examples abound.  And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much
>> like
>> Miller's Applause model.
>>
>> Isn't this possibly a cultural issue?  Possibly regional?  The largest
>> Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east,
>> its Indonesia.  They do not appear to have this issue.
>>
>> So my question stands as Kofi stated:
>>     "Where are the leaders?  Where is the Majority?  Nobody speaks up."
>> NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the
>> religion lies.
>>
>> And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to
>> do with speaking out against injustice.  It is not a religious issue, but
>> a
>> civic, cultural one.
>>
>>    -- Owen
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Doug Roberts
> [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-670-8195 - Cell
>

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[Jochen Fromm-5]

The whole subject is embarrassing. 18 people, including an innocent
Ambassador, have been killed for nothing.

Yet people who do crazy things are not necessarily crazy. Although the riots
in the Arab world may appear strange to us - after all what has a stupid
YouTube film of an odd Egyptian to do with Americans - they do not mean that
people are crazy. This is what Aronson's First Law (from the psychologist
Elliot Aronson) says: "People who do crazy things are not necessarily
crazy".

The idea is that if we are unaware of the social circumstances that prompted
their actions, we are tempted to conclude that they are caused by a
deficiency in character like stupidness or insanity. But in some situations
people may do crazy things, because they are compelled to act in crazy ways.
It is the abnormal situation that drives them to extreme behavior.

The question is what makes such behavior seem reasonable to those who carry
it out in this case? Preachers under pressure who blame Americans for
everything?

-J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Densmore
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya |
TheEconomist

My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and
majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.

So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or
human rights or whatever.  Where the majority is silent.  And the leaders do
not lead.

Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points
against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at
another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many
other areas.

Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent?  We know
many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious.  They deplore the
extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam,
the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public
discourse.

   -- Owen



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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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