Facebook: OK, now what!?
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I've gotten a facebook account 'cause a family member died and there
was a facebook memorial page that was great, so I joined to show all the pictures to our Santa Fe tribe. Now I've got lots of friends. What next? What do you guys use facebook for? -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Facebook: OK, now what!?
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I haven't had time to look at my Facebook account but maybe once a week for the last couple of months. Facebook, or at least the "friends" that I collect on my own Facebook social subnet, seem to use it mostly to post sentence fragment-sized bits of off-the-cuff wry philosophical sound bites.
--Doug On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: I've gotten a facebook account 'cause a family member died and there was a facebook memorial page that was great, so I joined to show all the pictures to our Santa Fe tribe. -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
A retired Washington Post reporter friend summed up Facebook this way -
"I seem to be deeply mired in this strange community. I was more or less bullied into participating by my first wife and last kids. Soon I was surrounded by cousins, and friends of cousins, and friends and friends of friends. So far so good. But like Topsy it has growed and growed. Now I cannot turn on my computer without being importuned, er, invited, to become Friends with friends of the friends of friends' friends, people I cannot distinguish from Adam's off ox. I feel cajoled, even coerced, to invite them into my parlor. The choice is Invite or Ignore. My old Daddy taught me not to ignore people, even ignorant ones.
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: I've gotten a facebook account 'cause a family member died and there was a facebook memorial page that was great, so I joined to show all the pictures to our Santa Fe tribe. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
I had to subscribe to get photos I needed from a friend and use it now to
exchange photos and find peopleI had lost track of or to be contacted by them. Cordialement Michel Bloch 33(0)1 46 37 01 93 http://www.mountvernon.fr/Sciences_complexite.htm -----Message d'origine----- De : [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] De la part de Owen Densmore Envoyé : dimanche 22 novembre 2009 05:36 À : The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Objet : [FRIAM] Facebook: OK, now what!? I've gotten a facebook account 'cause a family member died and there was a facebook memorial page that was great, so I joined to show all the pictures to our Santa Fe tribe. Now I've got lots of friends. What next? What do you guys use facebook for? -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date: 11/21/09 07:47:00 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
I use facebook to keep in casual touch with people I like but whom I
don't have time (or travel options) to see in-person on a regular basis. So instead of a big catch-up once a quarter (or year!), I'm more-or-less in-tune with what's going on with them. At least with the frequent posters / commenters. Contrarily, I am not that frequent a poster of personal stuff, but I like to post links and topics that are important to me. ~~J On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: > I've gotten a facebook account 'cause a family member died and there was a > facebook memorial page that was great, so I joined to show all the pictures > to our Santa Fe tribe. > > Now I've got lots of friends. What next? What do you guys use facebook > for? > > -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Thanks for the help, good examples.
One question has popped up for me: You can link twitter to facebook, so that all/some of your tweets appear in facebook too, as a "status" update. Not sure I grok it all, but if I'm going to be tweeting, I'd like it to also be published in facebook, right? Anyone try it any of the automatic tweeter -> facebook apps yet? http://mashable.com/2009/05/25/twitter-to-facebook/ -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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I don't think so...... but I'
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 11:13 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
Eric CharlesProfessional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
I don't think so, but it sounds like exactly the type of thing Wave was
intended to handle.
Eric On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 11:13 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
Eric CharlesProfessional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Yes, go to -- and get -- Tweetdeck.com
-tj On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: Thanks for the help, good examples. -- ========================================== J. T. Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA www.analyticjournalism.com 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email] "Be Your Own Publisher" http://indiepubwest.com ========================================== <input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"> ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Eric Charles
Well, Wave is definitely in beta. Several of us looked at using it to augment a seminar we're taking with Nick. Several bumps. But it does show promise.
Main concern: I'd like not to be sucked into any particular ecology. Google is insanely capable: Wave, Docs, App Engine, Pages, Blogger and on and on. But other worlds are interesting too. Facebook first looked interesting to me because my hosting service, Joyent, offers free development environment accounts for Facebook. Very savvy, I think. Building plugins (like the several facebook <> twitter conduits) seems like a good way to safely not be painted into one corner or another. So bottom line is that I hope for interoperability. I'd like to export blips to tweets, wall's to waves, docs to pages. -- Owen On Nov 22, 2009, at 10:41 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
I just don't understand this Web 2.0 culture. Heck, I can't even bring myself to send a text message. Must be getting old :-|
Gary On Nov 22, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: > Thanks for the help, good examples. > > One question has popped up for me: You can link twitter to facebook, so that all/some of your tweets appear in facebook too, as a "status" update. Not sure I grok it all, but if I'm going to be tweeting, I'd like it to also be published in facebook, right? > > Anyone try it any of the automatic tweeter -> facebook apps yet? > http://mashable.com/2009/05/25/twitter-to-facebook/ > > -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Facebook: OK, now what!?
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Thus spake Owen Densmore circa 11/22/2009 08:13 AM:
> update. Not sure I grok it all, but if I'm going to be tweeting, I'd > like it to also be published in facebook, right? Not necessarily. I do. In fact, twitter is way more useful to me than facebook. So, I treat facebook as a kind-of ditch to catch the run-off from twitter. More importantly, twitter should be viewed as a global IRC chat room, which is what it is. [grin] So, by using tircd <http://code.google.com/p/tircd/>, I can address twitter through the proper interface. People who use the two media (facebook vs. twitter) can, I think, be divided into two types that, to me, are very similar to the two types of WWW people: flat/simple html vs. busy/dynamic applets. I _hate_ ajax style web pages with lots of little wiggly bits, pop-ups, tooltips, drop-downs, etc. I like a nice clean interface that doesn't do anything without my _explicit_ and purposeful action.... I really like my motorcycle's gear shifting mechanism... it makes a nice visceral CLUNK when I shift. I like my computers (and my guns) the same. I don't want it doing anything unless I _tell_ it to do precisely that thing. For the same reasons, I dislike touch screens and rely fundamentally on actual buttons.... There's nothing as satisfying as the force feedback of a buckling spring keyboard in comparison to these wimpy clickety-clack things so popular nowadays. Facebook is full of annoying little wiggly bits that move around regardless of what you do (or want to do). Twitter, on the other hand, is a well-behaved, simple thing... Facebook seems very Windowsy/Macsy and twitter seems very unixy. So, I think whether you want to hook your twitter feed directly and automatically into facebook depends on what type of person you are and what type of "friends" you have. Since I don't like facebook and dribble my banal, useless offerings mainly into IRC, it allows my Windowsy/Macsy friends to pretend that I'm one of them. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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/.: Mod +2, insightful.
Twitter always seemed to me to be "broadcast text messaging", so the irc relationship makes a lot of sense. I like that it works on most phones nowadays, thus ubiquitous. It also fits in with the simple vs fancy. I'm simple. Possibly too much so? :) But I am fascinated with texting and how it evolved, capturing the "third world" due to being far less expensive than a phone call. It is definitely the "people's medium". Dirt cheap, started outside the US, massively popular in the third world .. and europe. Caught on here 'cause of the kids, bless them. Mashups are still in the simple, I think: build something up from simple components. This brings me to Google Wave. It definitely is raw at this point. But I think of it as "simple" due to the composition of "blips" into waves. And the blips can be used in multiple waves. The text is dead simple. And additional functionality is via very easy to build "gadgets". Google Wave has one serious test to pass before it's OK by me: I've got to be able to export it off Google back into your-basic internet. Possibly an xml/jason export, or html export. But I'm finding myself unhappy using facebook or twitter or wave if I can't some capture the media I've created into some standard format. The blog folks are tackling this: how to blog, but be able to move onto other technologies. Wordpress has an xml export that's close to OK and interoperates with many other blog engines like Blogspot. I guess its protocols and standard formats all the way down. -- Owen On Nov 22, 2009, at 1:44 PM, glen e. p. ropella wrote: > Thus spake Owen Densmore circa 11/22/2009 08:13 AM: >> update. Not sure I grok it all, but if I'm going to be tweeting, I'd >> like it to also be published in facebook, right? > > Not necessarily. I do. In fact, twitter is way more useful to me > than > facebook. So, I treat facebook as a kind-of ditch to catch the run- > off > from twitter. > > More importantly, twitter should be viewed as a global IRC chat room, > which is what it is. [grin] So, by using tircd > <http://code.google.com/p/tircd/>, I can address twitter through the > proper interface. > > People who use the two media (facebook vs. twitter) can, I think, be > divided into two types that, to me, are very similar to the two > types of > WWW people: flat/simple html vs. busy/dynamic applets. I _hate_ ajax > style web pages with lots of little wiggly bits, pop-ups, tooltips, > drop-downs, etc. I like a nice clean interface that doesn't do > anything > without my _explicit_ and purposeful action.... I really like my > motorcycle's gear shifting mechanism... it makes a nice visceral CLUNK > when I shift. I like my computers (and my guns) the same. I don't > want > it doing anything unless I _tell_ it to do precisely that thing. For > the same reasons, I dislike touch screens and rely fundamentally on > actual buttons.... There's nothing as satisfying as the force feedback > of a buckling spring keyboard in comparison to these wimpy > clickety-clack things so popular nowadays. > > Facebook is full of annoying little wiggly bits that move around > regardless of what you do (or want to do). Twitter, on the other > hand, > is a well-behaved, simple thing... Facebook seems very Windowsy/Macsy > and twitter seems very unixy. > > So, I think whether you want to hook your twitter feed directly and > automatically into facebook depends on what type of person you are and > what type of "friends" you have. Since I don't like facebook and > dribble my banal, useless offerings mainly into IRC, it allows my > Windowsy/Macsy friends to pretend that I'm one of them. > > -- > glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
"Old" is not something you get. It's something that is thrust upon you.
People who write "I must be getting old" aren't, yet. Trust me. I don't think one has to be old to be uneasy when the people you repect the most dive into a culture of narcissitic one liners like lemings into the ocean. Hang in there, Gary; hang in there! Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > [Original Message] > From: Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 11/22/2009 1:38:15 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Facebook: OK, now what!? > > I just don't understand this Web 2.0 culture. Heck, I can't even bring myself to send a text message. Must be getting old :-| > > Gary > > On Nov 22, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: > > > Thanks for the help, good examples. > > > > One question has popped up for me: You can link twitter to facebook, so that all/some of your tweets appear in facebook too, as a "status" update. Not sure I grok it all, but if I'm going to be tweeting, I'd like it to also be published in facebook, right? > > > > Anyone try it any of the automatic tweeter -> facebook apps yet? > > http://mashable.com/2009/05/25/twitter-to-facebook/ > > > > -- Owen > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by glen e. p. ropella-2
FaceBook reminds me too much of AOL when it first came onto the
Internet...
I have been interested in internet/web-enabled social systems since 1979 when I first got an account on a UNIX machine and discovered UUNet Mail and News in it's somewhat early form. Unfortunately, there is something about what happens when the unwashed masses use these technologies that is offensive to me. I'm probably just some kind of elitist. Even (especially?) USENet News was full of prattle... but the signal/noise ratio was like .2 instead of AOL/Facebook/etc. that seem more like .01 . I got on FaceBook because my grown daughters are there and it was a good way to keep up with what they were up to... but I quickly discovered that following their blogs (both centered on their craft-work) was in many ways better... the amount of chatter (around, not by) them on Facebook is rather distracting.... but then I'm not GenY... so maybe that is the irritant. FWIW... my elder daughter (30, Phd BioMed 2007) was just visiting and said essentially the same thing... just too much prattle of the not-so-interesting variety.. Prattle on, - Steve Thus spake Owen Densmore circa 11/22/2009 08:13 AM: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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On Nov 22, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> FaceBook reminds me too much of AOL when it first came onto the > Internet... Yup. > I have been interested in internet/web-enabled social systems since > 1979 when I first got an account on a UNIX machine and discovered > UUNet Mail and News in it's somewhat early form. Ditto. Remember Gopher? > Unfortunately, there is something about what happens when the > unwashed masses use these technologies that is offensive to me. I'm > probably just some kind of elitist. Me too, I wish the "civilians" weren't destroying my internet. <snip> But let me be clear why I'm trying all this stuff. SFX has found itself without administrators and with a hosting service that's more difficult, but much more computer savvy, than facebook, twitter, blogspot, pbwiki, ... Basically we have a user community with contempt for computing and complexity both. (there are a few exceptions, natch) So several of us who alas are computer savvy, are starting to think we should move sfx off a hosting service with its complexity onto the pre- built, user oriented, non-hosted cloud. And to be fair, there's a lot of good stuff that is starting to merge into something that could replace Joyent/Wordpress with a mashup of Blogspot, Google Docs, Twitter, Facebook, Maps/Earth, Youtube, Flickr, and so on. I think we old timers have pushed the new generation non-tech folks into a trap they'd prefer to skip. So I'd like to give them their head for a bit and see how it goes. Become self-administered. No joke, I'm for real here. Lose hosting, replace with the flower-child web. I think they can pull it off. And, no, I Won't Fix Their Computer! :) -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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>> I have been interested in internet/web-enabled social systems since >> 1979 when I first got an account on a UNIX machine and discovered >> UUNet Mail and News in it's somewhat early form. > > Ditto. Remember Gopher? Too well. We stood up the first www.lanl.gov as a perl script which responded to HTTP get requests by parsing our gopher directory and serving it up as HTML. Tim Berner's Lee added us to his "home page" and when I did a count, we were #50 on his list of known web servers. It took nearly a year after Mosaic came out to get the general populace to quit using (and demanding that we support) Lynx and Gopher. Actually I think it was more like 2 before we phased them all the way out. We stood up our first "real" web server with an early A-Patchy (aka Apache) that other folks at LANL had helped patch into existence. And then we had the search-engine wars until Google won them hands down. >> Unfortunately, there is something about what happens when the >> unwashed masses use these technologies that is offensive to me. I'm >> probably just some kind of elitist. > > Me too, I wish the "civilians" weren't destroying my internet. Yah... so I don't sign on to facebook much anymore... but everywhere I look folks are "discovering" it and trying to "friend me". > > <snip> > > But let me be clear why I'm trying all this stuff. SFX has found > itself without administrators and with a hosting service that's more > difficult, but much more computer savvy, than facebook, twitter, > blogspot, pbwiki, ... Basically we have a user community with > contempt for computing and complexity both. (there are a few > exceptions, natch) > > So several of us who alas are computer savvy, are starting to think we > should move sfx off a hosting service with its complexity onto the > pre-built, user oriented, non-hosted cloud. And to be fair, there's a > lot of good stuff that is starting to merge into something that could > replace Joyent/Wordpress with a mashup of Blogspot, Google Docs, > Twitter, Facebook, Maps/Earth, Youtube, Flickr, and so on. > > I think we old timers have pushed the new generation non-tech folks > into a trap they'd prefer to skip. So I'd like to give them their > head for a bit and see how it goes. Become self-administered. No > joke, I'm for real here. Lose hosting, replace with the flower-child > web. I think they can pull it off. > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Facebook: OK, now what!?
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
And I'd also like to sail the sea in a sieve
because it's cheap. FB, TW, BS, PBW, etc are froth on that sea.
(But perhaps here is the big picture: Non Sequitur.)
Just look at the deteriorating signal to noise ratio.
Serious needs require serious solutions not mash-ups (which are fragile) but a match-up of real organization needs with real functionality. There. I said it. Now, someone prove me wrong! Robert C. Owen Densmore wrote: But let me be clear why I'm trying all this stuff. SFX has found itself without administrators and with a hosting service that's more difficult, but much more computer savvy, than facebook, twitter, blogspot, pbwiki, ... Basically we have a user community with contempt for computing and complexity both. (there are a few exceptions, natch) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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I agree that there does not appear *to us* to be a non-hosted solution.
But *to them*, the participants, I believe there is a scenario that would work. You have to remember that the participants have not been able to identify a systems administrator willing to manage a hosted solution. Thus the logical solution is that a non-hosted solution of the sort you mention *must* succeed, OR that they *must* become engaged enough to provide an administrator. QED. Remember we're dealing with both cultural and generational issues here that you and I are unqualified to judge, thus unqualified to foist our solution upon. -- Owen On Nov 23, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote: > And I'd also like to sail the sea in a sieve because it's cheap. > FB, TW, BS, PBW, etc are froth on that sea. (But perhaps here is > the big picture: Non Sequitur.) Just look at the deteriorating > signal to noise ratio. > > Serious needs require serious solutions not mash-ups (which are > fragile) but a match-up of real organization needs with real > functionality. > > There. I said it. Now, someone prove me wrong! > > Robert C. > > > Owen Densmore wrote: >> But let me be clear why I'm trying all this stuff. SFX has found >> itself without administrators and with a hosting service that's >> more difficult, but much more computer savvy, than facebook, >> twitter, blogspot, pbwiki, ... Basically we have a user community >> with contempt for computing and complexity both. (there are a few >> exceptions, natch) >> >> So several of us who alas are computer savvy, are starting to think >> we should move sfx off a hosting service with its complexity onto >> the pre-built, user oriented, non-hosted cloud. And to be fair, >> there's a lot of good stuff that is starting to merge into >> something that could replace Joyent/Wordpress with a mashup of >> Blogspot, Google Docs, Twitter, Facebook, Maps/Earth, Youtube, >> Flickr, and so on. >> >> I think we old timers have pushed the new generation non-tech folks >> into a trap they'd prefer to skip. So I'd like to give them their >> head for a bit and see how it goes. Become self-administered. No >> joke, I'm for real here. Lose hosting, replace with the flower- >> child web. I think they can pull it off. >> >> And, no, I Won't Fix Their Computer! :) >> >> -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Posterous looks like a cool tool for wide-casting updates to multiple
services, including tweets, blogs, pictures and videos... ~~James On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: > Thanks for the help, good examples. > > One question has popped up for me: You can link twitter to facebook, so that > all/some of your tweets appear in facebook too, as a "status" update. Not > sure I grok it all, but if I'm going to be tweeting, I'd like it to also be > published in facebook, right? > > Anyone try it any of the automatic tweeter -> facebook apps yet? > http://mashable.com/2009/05/25/twitter-to-facebook/ > > -- Owen > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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