FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
 
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Sorry if this has already come to your attention:
Emergence: Complexity & Organization An International Transdisciplinary Journal of Complex Social Systems http://iscepublishing.com/ECO/about_eco.aspx It came up on one of the Rosen e-mail lists. BTW, I was ... like ... so totally wrong when I said that Rosen didn't talk about emergence. I went through my Rosen books and he talks about it quite a bit. If/when I get some free time (Ha!), I'll cite some. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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Glen - I notice from your website that you recently got a paper published in Complexity 14/6. Do you have a PDF that you can make available to the group?
-- Robert
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote: Sorry if this has already come to your attention: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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In reply to this post by glen e. p. ropella-2
Glen - I notice from your website that you recently got a paper published in Complexity (vol 14, no.6). Do you have a PDF that you can make available to the group?
-- Robert
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote: Sorry if this has already come to your attention: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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Yeah, me too. I'm kind of curious to discover what this "emergence" thing is all about.
--Doug On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote: Glen - I notice from your website that you recently got a paper published in Complexity (vol 14, no.6). Do you have a PDF that you can make available to the group? -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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In reply to this post by Robert Holmes
Thus spake Robert Holmes circa 10/01/2009 07:25 PM:
> Glen - I notice from your website that you recently got a paper > published in Complexity (vol 14, no.6). Do you have a PDF that you > can make available to the group? I doubt the journal would be happy about me re-publishing it in the archives of this list. If you have an institutional subscription to Wiley Interscience, you can get it from here: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121458557/abstract Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10/01/2009 07:29 PM: > Yeah, me too. I'm kind of curious to discover what this "emergence" > thing is all about. Sorry, Doug. There's nothing about emergence in this paper. I think we used the word "emerge" once in another paper, though. ;-) -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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In reply to this post by glen e. p. ropella-2
For what it's worth:
My values tell me that: An author may always circulate his own work for the advancement of his career and the further development of his thought. I would never, EVER, turn down a sincere request to see my work on ANY ground whatsoever. N . Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 10/2/2009 7:42:20 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence > > Thus spake Robert Holmes circa 10/01/2009 07:25 PM: > > Glen - I notice from your website that you recently got a paper > > published in Complexity (vol 14, no.6). Do you have a PDF that you > > can make available to the group? > > I doubt the journal would be happy about me re-publishing it in the > archives of this list. If you have an institutional subscription to > Wiley Interscience, you can get it from here: > > http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121458557/abstract > > > Thus spake Douglas Roberts circa 10/01/2009 07:29 PM: > > Yeah, me too. I'm kind of curious to discover what this "emergence" > > thing is all about. > > Sorry, Doug. There's nothing about emergence in this paper. I think we > used the word "emerge" once in another paper, though. ;-) > > -- > glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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But I understand Glen being careful about sending it out to a list that archives such that the paper is effectively been placed in a public repository.For what it's worth: My values tell me that: An author may always circulate his own work for the advancement of his career and the further development of his thought. I would never, EVER, turn down a sincere request to see my work on ANY ground whatsoever. Others on the list, I know, have strong feelings about increasing exposure/circulation of Scientific Publications. (Information just wants to be free). I agree with them in spirit, but understand that the publishers who are trying to make money (and presumably) help us get our work out are confounded by the shift from print to electronic publication and the challenges to their making the money it takes to pay the editors and others to add the value we all expect them to. I think we all agree that edited/refereed publications are important to us all. If all scientific publication reduced to self-published monographs, we would be reduced to trying to get our science by reading blogs. I'm a big fan of blogging, but I think there is still an important place for editors and referees. That said, I hope Glen (and others) *will* freely circulate their work to their colleagues according to their own judgement about what supports their work (and Science in general) vs what undermines it (breaking contracts or good faith understandings?). - S N . Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/[Original Message] From: glen e. p. ropella [hidden email] To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email] Date: 10/2/2009 7:42:20 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence Thus spake Robert Holmes circa 10/01/2009 07:25 PM: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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Steve Smith wrote:
> Others on the list, I know, have strong feelings about increasing > exposure/circulation of Scientific Publications. (Information just > wants to be free). I agree with them in spirit, but understand that > the publishers who are trying to make money (and presumably) help us > get our work out are confounded by the shift from print to electronic > publication and the challenges to their making the money it takes to > pay the editors and others to add the value we all expect them to. Try your public library. For example, the Santa Fe Public library has a service called Research Pro that does federated search over many scientific publications (including Science, Nature, etc). With a library card (free), you can get to quite a bit of full text. At the library, you don't even need a library card or login. There was a power failure in Santa Fe last night, and it looks they are still recovering, or I'd check myself for Wiley and Glen's paper. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Thus spake Steve Smith circa 10/02/2009 07:40 AM:
> But I understand Glen being careful about sending it out to a list that archives > such that the paper is effectively been placed in a public repository. > [...] > That said, I hope Glen (and others) *will* freely circulate their work to their > colleagues according to their own judgement about what supports their work (and > Science in general) vs what undermines it (breaking contracts or good faith > understandings?). Exactly. To be clear, I won't re-publish the article. But I'm happy to send a copy directly to any colleague who asks. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 10:07 AM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thus spake Steve Smith circa 10/02/2009 07:40 AM: This came up, again, this week with a pre-undergraduate researcher, ie unfunded and unaffiliated, who wanted articles on <subject>. I searched arxiv.org, plos.org, and google scholar without finding much on <subject> that wasn't encumbered by a king's ransom in use fees, however it turned out that <researcher> at <university> had a web page of publications which linked to pdfs of his publications, of the publications of all his students, of his out of print book, dissertations, etc, et anything else that could further the progress in his field of research. My recommendation was to google author names to find other online archives of papers and follow the trail of pdfs. Life is short, the mean time to expiration of a good ideas even shorter when starved for companionship, the mean number of readers of a scientific paper who actually make something out of the experience is probably less than 1, probably much less than 1. You can collaborate with the publishers, make your work artificially scarce, so they can sell it again, and again, and again to those who can pay. Or you can actively attempt to find a reader who will make something of your work. The publisher doesn't care if anyone ever makes anything of your work, they priced the book or the journal so their business expected to make a profit the day of publication. That's why the books and journals are getting more expensive so fast that libraries are spending so much time figuring out what not to buy, what subscriptions to cancel, what departments can't defend themselves. Which is making it all still more expensive for those who continue to buy. And those online copies aren't priced at what the market will bear, they're priced to make subscriptions look like a bargain. If you don't actively promote the availability of your work, of your discipline, of your ideas online, then who will? Disciplines which make it possible for a pre-undergraduate to find and to read and to learn about their ideas online will recruit pre-undergraduates. Disciplines which abet the publishers in their desire to collect rents in perpetuity on human knowledge will fare differently. Which side are you on, boys? -- rec -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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I agree strongly with Roger and Nick. The point of doing research is to advance the field -- among other things by sharing one's results with others.
Most scientific publishers don't add much value to what they publish. The reviewing is done by unpaid reviewers. There are quite a few fully reviewed open publication channels. Quality is no worse there than in for-profit journals. Look for example at the PLoS journals. Also, look at JASSS. Compare the quality of those article with the quality of articles published in the Journal that started this thread: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence. Furthermore, it is always OK to publish "pre-prints" of journal articles. These are author-formatted versions of published articles. Pre-prints allow the contents of articles to be made available without charge without giving away the formatting "added value" contributed by the publisher. -- Russ A On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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On Oct 2, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: I agree strongly with Roger and Nick. The point of doing research is to advance the field -- among other things by sharing one's results with others. The NM-INBRE project (www.nminbre.org), helps new biomedical researchers in NM universities get started on the road to funding. While at NCGR, I interviewed professors and students to find out what their most pressing issues were. One of the most frequent problems they cited was lack of access to journals such as Cell. Institutional subscriptions are incredibly expensive, so researchers at universities with especially inadequate funding often just do without. ;; Gary
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Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:56:04AM -0700, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > Furthermore, it is always OK to publish "pre-prints" of journal articles. > These are author-formatted versions of published articles. Pre-prints allow > the contents of articles to be made available without charge without giving > away the formatting "added value" contributed by the publisher. > > -- Russ A > >From a legal standpoint, I don't think this is true, unless the journal specifically allows for it in their transfer of copyright agreement, which most journals require authors to sign. What I _always_ do is read the copyright assignment agreement, and if it doesn't specifically allow for the article to be added to an e-print server, I will add in the specific clause allowing me to do this, before signing the copyright transfer and sending it back. Many of the important journals will allow for e-print servers and personal websites, but some of the newer journals do not. I don't much agree with copyright transfer, but in as much as it appears to be necessary to be published, I use the same technique that they use (ie large gobs of legalese that people never read) to get the necessary changes in. Interestingly, I have only had one instance of a push back by a publisher when I did this (obviously they did read the fine print :). This threatened to delay the publication of a collection of papers, and in the end was resolved by them issuing me with a specific license to allow for e-print publication. However, there was a Catch-22 situation where I wouldn't sign the copy transfer until they sent me the license, and they would give me a license until they had copyright. In the end, they relented and sent me the license first, after I pointed out the license could only start operating once I transferred copyright. Bugger 'em. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email] Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence
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In reply to this post by glen e. p. ropella-2
Nobody ever objected to my careting in,
"Nothing in this document shall limit the author's ability to share copies of this work for his own career development purposes.": In only two cases, did it make any trouble...in one they backed down, and in the other (they were making life hell for the editor of the volume my piece was going into) I backed down. Author's contracts are the pits. I particularly used to wince at the phrase, "the authors shall hold the publisher harmless from any harm arising from the publication of the work." Oh, sure. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: russell standish <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 10/3/2009 4:11:06 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence > > On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:56:04AM -0700, Russ Abbott wrote: > > > > Furthermore, it is always OK to publish "pre-prints" of journal articles. > > These are author-formatted versions of published articles. Pre-prints allow > > the contents of articles to be made available without charge without giving > > away the formatting "added value" contributed by the publisher. > > > > -- Russ A > > > > >From a legal standpoint, I don't think this is true, unless the > journal specifically allows for it in their transfer of copyright > agreement, which most journals require authors to sign. > > What I _always_ do is read the copyright assignment agreement, and if > it doesn't specifically allow for the article to be added to an > e-print server, I will add in the specific clause allowing me to do > this, before signing the copyright transfer and sending it back. Many > of the important journals will allow for e-print servers and personal > websites, but some of the newer journals do not. > > I don't much agree with copyright transfer, but in as much as it > appears to be necessary to be published, I use the same technique that > they use (ie large gobs of legalese that people never read) to get the > necessary changes in. > > Interestingly, I have only had one instance of a push back by a > publisher when I did this (obviously they did read the fine print > :). This threatened to delay the publication of a collection of > papers, and in the end was resolved by them issuing me with a specific > license to allow for e-print publication. However, there was a > Catch-22 situation where I wouldn't sign the copy transfer until they > sent me the license, and they would give me a license until they had > copyright. In the end, they relented and sent me the license first, > after I pointed out the license could only start operating once I > transferred copyright. > > Bugger 'em. > > -- > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Mathematics > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email] > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Publishing Agreements (was "More mumbo-jumbo")
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Interestingly,
Most journals I interact with no longer have paper options for this sort of thing. All you do is click on a link that says "I agree". I have wondered how enforceable any such agreement is, and what the publisher would do if I insisted on a paper transaction in which I could do things like write in clauses. Has anyone had experience with these issues? Eric On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 11:17 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote: Eric CharlesNobody ever objected to my careting in, "Nothing in this document shall limit the author's ability to share copies of this work for his own career development purposes.": In only two cases, did it make any trouble...in one they backed down, and in the other (they were making life hell for the editor of the volume my piece was going into) I backed down. Author's contracts are the pits. I particularly used to wince at the phrase, "the authors shall hold the publisher harmless from any harm arising from the publication of the work." Oh, sure. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: russell standish <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 10/3/2009 4:11:06 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FYI: More mumbo-jumbo @ emergence > > On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:56:04AM -0700, Russ Abbott wrote: > > > > Furthermore, it is always OK to publish "pre-prints" of journal articles. > > These are author-formatted versions of published articles. Pre-prints allow > > the contents of articles to be made available without charge without giving > > away the formatting "added value" contributed by the publisher. > > > > -- Russ A > > > > >From a legal standpoint, I don't think this is true, unless the > journal specifically allows for it in their transfer of copyright > agreement, which most journals require authors to sign. > > What I _always_ do is read the copyright assignment agreement, and if > it doesn't specifically allow for the article to be added to an > e-print server, I will add in the specific clause allowing me to do > this, before signing the copyright transfer and sending it back. Many > of the important journals will allow for e-print servers and personal > websites, but some of the newer journals do not. > > I don't much agree with copyright transfer, but in as much as it > appears to be necessary to be published, I use the same technique that > they use (ie large gobs of legalese that people never read) to get the > necessary changes in. > > Interestingly, I have only had one instance of a push back by a > publisher when I did this (obviously they did read the fine print > :). This threatened to delay the publication of a collection of > papers, and in the end was resolved by them issuing me with a specific > license to allow for e-print publication. However, there was a > Catch-22 situation where I wouldn't sign the copy transfer until they > sent me the license, and they would give me a license until they had > copyright. In the end, they relented and sent me the license first, > after I pointed out the license could only start operating once I > transferred copyright. > > Bugger 'em. > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Mathematics > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email] > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Publishing Agreements (was "More mumbo-jumbo")
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Thanks, Robert C ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:
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Re: Publishing Agreements (was "More mumbo-jumbo")
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Hi Robert. I subscribe to the FRIAM listserv, and
have seen your note here.
I'm wondering what the law is regarding the sharing
of intellectual property where one person establishes the general rules for
a computer simulation and then takes those rules to a programmer who then
creates a specific program based on your rules. Do you both share in the
resulting simulation, or can the programmer argue the simulation is
his/hers? I am in a situation where I have established the general rules
for a simulation, and another fellow has created the actual sim - so am curious
to know how we should go about claiming our respective intellectual property
rights (hopefully they are shared).
Thanks and would be grateful if you could run this
by Dr Winchell.
Hugh Trenchard
Victoria
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Re: Publishing Agreements (was "More mumbo-jumbo")
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<base href="x-msg://14/">
IANAL of course, but in general this situation is no different form one where ay someone has an idea, tells it to someone else, and that someone else writes a book about it. Ideas can't be copyrighted but software can; and implementations of ideas can be patented. (Yuck, though..) Am I right folks? By default the copyright is with the actual author, i.e. in this case the programer, unless there is some specific agreement otherwise. But that's just the default situation; if that's not what you want then you guys need to come up with an agreement that specifies that you share copyright and then make sure that the code has the appropriate notices. That should be really straightforward. On Oct 3, 2009, at 6:27 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote:
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Re: Publishing Agreements (was "More mumbo-jumbo")
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In reply to this post by Eric Charles
<BASE href=x-msg://14/>
WTFDIK, but, werent there some cases recently where somebody followed the outline and sequence of topics in another person's book and got skinned for it? Breach of ethics, only? Or did they actually have to settle?
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
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Re: Publishing Agreements (was "More mumbo-jumbo")
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In reply to this post by Hugh Trenchard
Firrst, IANAL, and I am in the USA.
As a person who does exactly this (recieve ideas from clients, write code using those ideas, deliver code to clients) for money, this is something I have paid attention to. If you wrote down your rules (or otherwise expressed them in tangible form) you own copyrights in that writing. If someone encodes those rules in computer code, and you did not establish beforehand that copyrights in the code will go to you (or that the work is a "work for hire"), the copyrights in the code belong to the coder. This is not a bad thing, always. As a programmer, I need to be able to reuse code. So I can't have a really good chunk of code (like a mouse-event driver, for example) locked up by someone else's copyright. What I offer my clients as part of the deal is a perpetual license to use the code in any legal way, including making derivative works and publishing the code, while I retain copyrights. ~~James On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Robert. I subscribe to the FRIAM listserv, and have seen your note here. > > I'm wondering what the law is regarding the sharing of intellectual property > where one person establishes the general rules for a computer simulation and > then takes those rules to a programmer who then creates a specific program > based on your rules. Do you both share in the resulting simulation, or can > the programmer argue the simulation is his/hers? I am in a situation where > I have established the general rules for a simulation, and another fellow > has created the actual sim - so am curious to know how we should go about > claiming our respective intellectual property rights (hopefully they are > shared). > > Thanks and would be grateful if you could run this by Dr Winchell. > > Hugh Trenchard > Victoria ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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