Friam

Everything she knows...

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Everything she knows...

Gen Y = millennials?

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 11:46 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

In a gig economy, I don't see how "serve" is very meaningful, never mind "worship".
I think the Gen Y folks are right to be (supposedly) selfish and indifferent to the needs of the organization. No one else will look out for them in the workforce.

On 4/16/19, 8:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves. Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody. Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body. So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree. But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

I worship Bob Dylan just about as much as I worship Bob of the CotSG. I worship Eris just a tad more, obviously. =><=

And the Cosmic Muffin seemed to be the same, being a gay, Republican, Catholic, astrologer.

On 4/16/19 1:34 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> "You've got to serve somebody."

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Everything she knows...

Yes. (I’m X.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 11:49 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Gen Y = millennials?

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 11:46 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

In a gig economy, I don't see how "serve" is very meaningful, never mind "worship".
I think the Gen Y folks are right to be (supposedly) selfish and indifferent to the needs of the organization. No one else will look out for them in the workforce.

On 4/16/19, 8:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves. Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody. Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body. So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree. But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

I worship Bob Dylan just about as much as I worship Bob of the CotSG. I worship Eris just a tad more, obviously. =><=

And the Cosmic Muffin seemed to be the same, being a gay, Republican, Catholic, astrologer.

On 4/16/19 1:34 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> "You've got to serve somebody."

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Everything she knows...

I am a War Baby who is the father of a Baby Boomer (1964) and a Gen Y (1991). The former serves Latin and the latter serves beauty.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 11:51 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes. (I’m X.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 11:49 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Gen Y = millennials?

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 11:46 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

In a gig economy, I don't see how "serve" is very meaningful, never mind "worship".
I think the Gen Y folks are right to be (supposedly) selfish and indifferent to the needs of the organization. No one else will look out for them in the workforce.

On 4/16/19, 8:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves. Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody. Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body. So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree. But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

I worship Bob Dylan just about as much as I worship Bob of the CotSG. I worship Eris just a tad more, obviously. =><=

And the Cosmic Muffin seemed to be the same, being a gay, Republican, Catholic, astrologer.

On 4/16/19 1:34 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> "You've got to serve somebody."

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by gepr

I would say any human individual serves multiple genes at once. First the normal, biological genes. The selfish genes as Dawkins called them. Then the other, hidden genes. I have written a book about it named "The secret genes" which I'm publishing now, this month. It is about the secret genes in the holy books of the big religions. We know them all as commandments, but normally we don't recognize them as what they are - cultural genes which create social lifeforms. Religious organizations are social lifeforms created by genes which are expressed in church services. Thus the temples from ancient civilizations are fossil remains of ancient lifeforms. Fascinating, isn't it? I try to explain it in more detail in the book.

Since the content of the book is so explosive, I have decided to publish it in German first, to avoid some form of apocalypse like the collapse of civilization or Notre Dame burning down. But since nobody will read it anyway and Notre Dame has already burnt down there is no reason why it shouldn't be published in English. It doesn't really matter. If anyone will cause an apocalypse it is probably president Trump (nuclear, climate, or otherwise).

Cheers,

Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: glen∈ℂ <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 16:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves. Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody. Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body. So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree. But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by gepr

With quantum annealer, one can make the distinction between logical qubits and physical qubits. Logical qubits can be formed from physical qubits by connecting physical qubits by strong pairwise ferromagnetic couplings. The low energy state of a system thus (in principle) has physical qubits that are members of the logical qubit in the same state. That’s all fine an good for ensuring a strong energy contrast between two logical values – and to be resistant to noise. However, the cost of that is that for that logical qubit to participate in tunneling means that the whole set of physical qubits need to tunnel. Think of a sci-fi story with a gateway to another world. You are holding hands with your family, and your father steps through the Stargate. He’s holding on to your mom’s hand but the chain be broken temporarily (and energy can fluctuate) as he is now in a different land. Then she must be pulled and then your siblings. These social genes make me think of dynamics like this. The rate that progress can occur toward the global optimal is diminished given an the insistence of maintaining group coherence.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 12:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Cheers,

Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: glen∈ℂ <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 16:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

About the last point 14, death: I believe the best way to fight against the destructive force of death is to be creative, to create something. It is what genes repeatedly do. They create bodies as survival vehicles for themselves, again and again. As Barack Obama said about Notre Dame "It’s in our nature to mourn when we see history lost – but it’s also in our nature to rebuild for tomorrow, as strong as we can" (Do you miss him in the White House as well?)

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1117886698568830976

After my parents died a few years ago I'm trying to write a biography about their life, which is quite hard. The more you write, the harder it gets, because it becomes harder to fit everything together and your own text puts you down. And if you want it to be good, you have to proofread it over and over again until you can't see it anymore and then 10 times more. However I think I have finished it now and will publish it this year together with the other book. It is not perfect and will not bring them back to life but it is the best I could do.

I'm thinking of Doug Roberts sometimes, who frequently wrote to this list and died too early as well. Honestly I don't know much about him, except that he had a parrot farm, and often wrote some funny or interesting stuff here. It would be wonderful if someone could write a book, ebook or something about the FRIAM group, the real one that meets in Santa Fe. I can't do that because I've never been there. As you know everything which is not recorded or written down gets lost in the course of time.

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/15/19 04:06 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

This is an essay by Anne La Mott that I came across 4 years ago. It may seem that a late middle-aged non-scientist could not could contribute philosophical thoughts that are worthy of the heights of Friam but I find that it integrates the sublime and the ridiculous quite well. Kind of like Friam meetings. The posts on the List are a little more coherent.

I was ten years old when she was born. She is a successful novelist, essayist, and short-story writer.

"I am going to be 61 years old in 48 hours. Wow. I thought i was only forty-seven, but looking over the paperwork, I see that I was born in 1954. My inside self does not have an age, although can't help mentioning as an aside that it might have been useful had I not followed the Skin Care rules of the sixties, ie to get as much sun as possible, while slathered in baby oil. (My sober friend Paul O said, at eighty, that he felt like a young man who had something wrong with him.). Anyway, I thought I might take the opportunity to write down every single thing I know, as of today.

1. All truth is a paradox. Life is a precious unfathomably beautiful gift; and it is impossible here, on the incarnational side of things. It has been a very bad match for those of us who were born extremely sensitive. It is so hard and weird that we wonder if we are being punked. And it filled with heartbreaking sweetness and beauty, floods and babies and acne and Mozart, all swirled together.

2. Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes, including you.

3. There is almost nothing outside of you that will help in any kind of last way, unless you are waiting for an organ. You can't buy, achieve, or date it. This is the most horrible truth.

4. Everyone is screwed up, broken, clingy, and scared, even the people who seem to have it more or less together. They are much more like you than you would believe. So try not to compare your insides to their outsides. Also, you can't save, fix or rescue any of them, or get any of them sober. But radical self-care is quantum, and radiates out into the atmosphere, like a little fresh air. It is a huge gift to the world. When people respond by saying, "Well, isn't she full of herself," smile obliquely, like Mona Lisa, and make both of you a nice cup of tea.

5. Chocolate with 70% cacao is not actually a food. It's best use is as bait in snake traps.

6. Writing: shitty first drafts. Butt in chair. Just do it. You own everything that happened to you. You are going to feel like hell if you never write the stuff that is tugging on the sleeves in your heart--your stories, visions, memories, songs: your truth, your version of things, in your voice. That is really all you have to offer us, and it's why you were born

7. Publication and temporary creative successes are something you have to recover from. They kill as many people as not. They will hurt, damage and change you in ways you cannot imagine. The most degraded and sometimes nearly-evil men I have known were all writers who'd had bestsellers. Yet, it is also a miracle to get your work published (see #1.). Just try to bust yourself gently of the fantasy that publication will heal you, will fill the Swiss cheesey holes. It won't, it can't. But writing can. So can singing.

8. Families; hard, hard, hard, no matter how cherished and astonishing they may also be. (See #1 again.) At family gatherings where you suddenly feel homicidal or suicidal, remember that in half of all cases, it's a miracle that this annoying person even lived. Earth is Forgiveness School. You might as well start at the dinner table. That way, you can do this work in comfortable pants. When Blake said that we are here to learn to endure the beams of love, he knew that your family would be an intimate part of this, even as you want to run screaming for your cute little life. But that you are up to it. You can do it, Cinderellie. You will be amazed.

9. Food; try to do a little better.

10. Grace: Spiritual WD-40. Water wings. The mystery of grace is that God loves Dick Cheney and me exactly as much as He or She loves your grandchild. Go figure. The movement of grace is what changes us, heals us and our world. To summon grace, say, "Help!" And then buckle up. Grace won't look like Casper the Friendly Ghost; but the phone will ring, or the mail will come, and then against all odds, you will get your sense of humor about yourself back. Laughter really is carbonated holiness, even if you are sick of me saying it.

11. God; Goodnesss, Love energy, the Divine, a loving animating intelligence, the Cosmic Muffin. You will worship and serve something, so like St. Bob said, you gotta choose. You can play on our side, or Bill Maher's and Franklin Graham's. Emerson said that the happiest person on earth is the one who learns from nature the lessons of worship. So go outside a lot, and look up. My pastor says you can trap bees on the floor of a Mason jar without a lid, because they don't look up. If they did, they could fly to freedom.

11. Faith: Paul Tillich said the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. If I could say one thing to our little Tea Party friends, it would be this. Fundamentalism, in all its forms, is 90% of the reason the world is so terrifying. 3% is the existence of snakes. The love of our incredible dogs and cats is the closest most of us will come, on this side of eternity, to knowing the direct love of God; although cats can be so bitter, which is not the god part: the crazy Love is. Also, "Figure it out" is not a good slogan.

12. Jesus; Jesus would have even loved horrible, mealy-mouth self-obsessed you, as if you were the only person on earth. But He would hope that you would perhaps pull yourself together just the tiniest, tiniest bit--maybe have a little something to eat, and a nap.

13. Exercise: If you want to have a good life after you have grown a little less young, you must walk almost every day. There is no way around this. If you are in a wheelchair, you must do chair exercises. Every single doctor on earth will tell you this, so don't go by what I say.

14. Death; wow. So f-ing hard to bear, when the few people you cannot live without die. You will never get over these losses, and are not supposed to. We Christians like to think death is a major change of address, but in any case, the person will live fully again in your heart, at some point, and make you smile at the MOST inappropriate times. But their absence will also be a lifelong nightmare of homesickness for you. All truth is a paradox. Grief, friends, time and tears will heal you. Tears will bathe and baptize and hydrate you and the ground on which you walk. The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know.

I think that's it, everything I know. I wish I had shoe-horned in what E.L. Doctorow said about writing: "It's like driving at night with the headlights on. You can only see a little aways ahead of you, but you can make the whole journey that way." I love that, because it's teue about everything we tey. I wish I had slipped in what Ram Das said, that when all is said and done, we're just all walking each other home. Oh, well, another time. God bless you all good."

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

1. Come to Santa Fe when you can.

2. La Mott says that writing, rather than being published, bestows the benefits.

I understand your struggles with the story of your parents' lives. When I wrote my little memoir I made discoveries like "this couldn't have happened before that" that I had to straighten out.

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 12:43 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

About the last point 14, death: I believe the best way to fight against the destructive force of death is to be creative, to create something. It is what genes repeatedly do. They create bodies as survival vehicles for themselves, again and again. As Barack Obama said about Notre Dame "It’s in our nature to mourn when we see history lost – but it’s also in our nature to rebuild for tomorrow, as strong as we can" (Do you miss him in the White House as well?)
https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1117886698568830976

After my parents died a few years ago I'm trying to write a biography about their life, which is quite hard. The more you write, the harder it gets, because it becomes harder to fit everything together and your own text puts you down. And if you want it to be good, you have to proofread it over and over again until you can't see it anymore and then 10 times more. However I think I have finished it now and will publish it this year together with the other book. It is not perfect and will not bring them back to life but it is the best I could do.

I'm thinking of Doug Roberts sometimes, who frequently wrote to this list and died too early as well. Honestly I don't know much about him, except that he had a parrot farm, and often wrote some funny or interesting stuff here. It would be wonderful if someone could write a book, ebook or something about the FRIAM group, the real one that meets in Santa Fe. I can't do that because I've never been there. As you know everything which is not recorded or written down gets lost in the course of time.

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------
From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Date: 4/15/19 04:06 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

This is an essay by Anne La Mott that I came across 4 years ago. It may seem that a late middle-aged non-scientist could not could contribute philosophical thoughts that are worthy of the heights of Friam but I find that it integrates the sublime and the ridiculous quite well. Kind of like Friam meetings. The posts on the List are a little more coherent.

I was ten years old when she was born. She is a successful novelist, essayist, and short-story writer.

"I am going to be 61 years old in 48 hours. Wow. I thought i was only forty-seven, but looking over the paperwork, I see that I was born in 1954. My inside self does not have an age, although can't help mentioning as an aside that it might have been useful had I not followed the Skin Care rules of the sixties, ie to get as much sun as possible, while slathered in baby oil. (My sober friend Paul O said, at eighty, that he felt like a young man who had something wrong with him.). Anyway, I thought I might take the opportunity to write down every single thing I know, as of today.

1. All truth is a paradox. Life is a precious unfathomably beautiful gift; and it is impossible here, on the incarnational side of things. It has been a very bad match for those of us who were born extremely sensitive. It is so hard and weird that we wonder if we are being punked. And it filled with heartbreaking sweetness and beauty, floods and babies and acne and Mozart, all swirled together.

2. Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes, including you.

3. There is almost nothing outside of you that will help in any kind of last way, unless you are waiting for an organ. You can't buy, achieve, or date it. This is the most horrible truth.

4. Everyone is screwed up, broken, clingy, and scared, even the people who seem to have it more or less together. They are much more like you than you would believe. So try not to compare your insides to their outsides. Also, you can't save, fix or rescue any of them, or get any of them sober. But radical self-care is quantum, and radiates out into the atmosphere, like a little fresh air. It is a huge gift to the world. When people respond by saying, "Well, isn't she full of herself," smile obliquely, like Mona Lisa, and make both of you a nice cup of tea.

5. Chocolate with 70% cacao is not actually a food. It's best use is as bait in snake traps.

6. Writing: shitty first drafts. Butt in chair. Just do it. You own everything that happened to you. You are going to feel like hell if you never write the stuff that is tugging on the sleeves in your heart--your stories, visions, memories, songs: your truth, your version of things, in your voice. That is really all you have to offer us, and it's why you were born

7. Publication and temporary creative successes are something you have to recover from. They kill as many people as not. They will hurt, damage and change you in ways you cannot imagine. The most degraded and sometimes nearly-evil men I have known were all writers who'd had bestsellers. Yet, it is also a miracle to get your work published (see #1.). Just try to bust yourself gently of the fantasy that publication will heal you, will fill the Swiss cheesey holes. It won't, it can't. But writing can. So can singing.

8. Families; hard, hard, hard, no matter how cherished and astonishing they may also be. (See #1 again.) At family gatherings where you suddenly feel homicidal or suicidal, remember that in half of all cases, it's a miracle that this annoying person even lived. Earth is Forgiveness School. You might as well start at the dinner table. That way, you can do this work in comfortable pants. When Blake said that we are here to learn to endure the beams of love, he knew that your family would be an intimate part of this, even as you want to run screaming for your cute little life. But that you are up to it. You can do it, Cinderellie. You will be amazed.

9. Food; try to do a little better.

10. Grace: Spiritual WD-40. Water wings. The mystery of grace is that God loves Dick Cheney and me exactly as much as He or She loves your grandchild. Go figure. The movement of grace is what changes us, heals us and our world. To summon grace, say, "Help!" And then buckle up. Grace won't look like Casper the Friendly Ghost; but the phone will ring, or the mail will come, and then against all odds, you will get your sense of humor about yourself back. Laughter really is carbonated holiness, even if you are sick of me saying it.

11. God; Goodnesss, Love energy, the Divine, a loving animating intelligence, the Cosmic Muffin. You will worship and serve something, so like St. Bob said, you gotta choose. You can play on our side, or Bill Maher's and Franklin Graham's. Emerson said that the happiest person on earth is the one who learns from nature the lessons of worship. So go outside a lot, and look up. My pastor says you can trap bees on the floor of a Mason jar without a lid, because they don't look up. If they did, they could fly to freedom.

11. Faith: Paul Tillich said the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. If I could say one thing to our little Tea Party friends, it would be this. Fundamentalism, in all its forms, is 90% of the reason the world is so terrifying. 3% is the existence of snakes. The love of our incredible dogs and cats is the closest most of us will come, on this side of eternity, to knowing the direct love of God; although cats can be so bitter, which is not the god part: the crazy Love is. Also, "Figure it out" is not a good slogan.

12. Jesus; Jesus would have even loved horrible, mealy-mouth self-obsessed you, as if you were the only person on earth. But He would hope that you would perhaps pull yourself together just the tiniest, tiniest bit--maybe have a little something to eat, and a nap.

13. Exercise: If you want to have a good life after you have grown a little less young, you must walk almost every day. There is no way around this. If you are in a wheelchair, you must do chair exercises. Every single doctor on earth will tell you this, so don't go by what I say.

14. Death; wow. So f-ing hard to bear, when the few people you cannot live without die. You will never get over these losses, and are not supposed to. We Christians like to think death is a major change of address, but in any case, the person will live fully again in your heart, at some point, and make you smile at the MOST inappropriate times. But their absence will also be a lifelong nightmare of homesickness for you. All truth is a paradox. Grief, friends, time and tears will heal you. Tears will bathe and baptize and hydrate you and the ground on which you walk. The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know.

I think that's it, everything I know. I wish I had shoe-horned in what E.L. Doctorow said about writing: "It's like driving at night with the headlights on. You can only see a little aways ahead of you, but you can make the whole journey that way." I love that, because it's teue about everything we tey. I wish I had slipped in what Ram Das said, that when all is said and done, we're just all walking each other home. Oh, well, another time. God bless you all good."

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

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gepr

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I understand the stereotype is that Ys are self-absorbed. But it seems to me they're far less apathetic, in general, than Xes. There seems to be an interest in gun control and climate change, for example. I've heard it couched in self-interest terms. But it's equivalently reasonable to couch it in terms of their social embeddedness, no doubt due, in part, to having grown up with the internet. Their world is much "smaller" than mine was.

On 4/16/19 10:46 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> In a gig economy, I don't see how "serve" is very meaningful, never mind "worship".
> I think the Gen Y folks are right to be (supposedly) selfish and indifferent to the needs of the organization. No one else will look out for them in the workforce.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Steve Smith

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Frank -

I think the quantification of "generations" is at least a little more useful than Astrology. I have a hard time believing that the specific timing of the rising of constellations has that much effect on individual constitution and personality (and fate?), though the time of year one goes through various stages of gestation (dead of winter, heat of summer) almost does. Especially before the buffers of HVAC AWD Vehicles and Supermarkets.

Your identification as a "war baby" distinguishes you from the "greatest generation" since you didn't come along until *after* the great depression and wasn't "coming of age" or "a young adult" during the war. I am technically a Boomer (1957) but feel a bit too late, and your 1964 is even later... the defining qualities of Boomers (for me) is having enjoyed the fruits of being raised during the post-war "boom", and then being defined by the Hippy moment and the Vietnam war. They cancelled draft registration just months before my 18th birthday, so while I was acutely aware of the *threat* of conscription/Vietnam and the aftermath (returning vets), my elder-boomers had a significantly different experience with all that. I was only 11 during the "Summer of Love" I think? I don't know when "X" starts technically but my own daughters (79, 80) feel like the forefront of "X". I believe Marcus might be 10+ years older than them? Definitely post-Boom, but early-early "X"? Glen also? Like "war baby" it seems like early-early Xrs are also "war babies" (Vietnam, racial/gender wars, Watergate, ???) being defined by things that were happening while they might have been too young to participate?

I guess I think in half-generations (by some measure) of roughly 10 year periods... where the older members of the "next older" generation were probably more likely your parent's peers than yours and the younger peers of your older siblings, but rarely of you. The world events that shaped their childhoods, their teens, or their young adult lives were different from yours. e.g. Those who were already adults (my GenX daughters) for 9/11 had a significantly different experience than those who were still children, and very much those who were too young to remember. I was in 2nd Grade when JFK was shot and really didn't appreciate the implications of much at all except most of the adults I knew were pretty whigged out for a while. I was a late teen when Nixon came tumbling down. I helped vote Reagan in (and regretted fairly quickly and am still rattled the way I hope a lot of Trumpsters are now and decades from now), but most of the rest of my adult life feels *much* more homogenous, even though a LOT of significant events happened then also.

I suppose my point is that the events of your formative years seem to be what define us, along with the generational norms of our parents (mine were older parents for their generation, so their age-peers mostly had children 10 years older than me).

Ramble...

- Steve

On 4/16/19 12:02 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

I am a War Baby who is the father of a Baby Boomer (1964) and a Gen Y (1991). The former serves Latin and the latter serves beauty.

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 11:51 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes. (I’m X.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 11:49 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Gen Y = millennials?

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 11:46 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

In a gig economy, I don't see how "serve" is very meaningful, never mind "worship".
I think the Gen Y folks are right to be (supposedly) selfish and indifferent to the needs of the organization. No one else will look out for them in the workforce.

On 4/16/19, 8:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves. Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody. Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body. So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree. But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

I worship Bob Dylan just about as much as I worship Bob of the CotSG. I worship Eris just a tad more, obviously. =><=

And the Cosmic Muffin seemed to be the same, being a gay, Republican, Catholic, astrologer.

On 4/16/19 1:34 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> "You've got to serve somebody."

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Steve Smith

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by gepr

Frank -

Thanks for offering up Anne La Mott's clever words here. Whether she
can match FriAM's pedantic dives into obscure (and to some trivial or
irrelevant?) topics is up for question, but she certainly has a much
more humorous delivery than most of us and can be nicely pithy.

Glen -

Your question demonstrates that you are a more careful/thorough reader
than I.   I somehow skimmed over the Maher/Graham allusion and even had
to Google Graham to find out what HE was about.

I've only recently "discovered" Bill Maher... and after listening to
him semi-regularly for several months was still surprised to find out
that he calls down the wrath of some on the left.   Once again, maybe I
wasn't *listening* close enough, or maybe I was guilty of letting some
of his more egregious statements roll over me out of my infatuation with
the general thrust (and boldly wry style) of his message, similar to the
way Trumpists seem to do for/with him (though their sins of omission
seem much larger in quantity and quality?).

I *have* heard him go off on *all religion* and once alerted to it (and
read some quotes from his screeds against Islam) recognize he has a
special place in his heart filled with fear (and judgement?) of their
(extremists?) religion.

I am personally a strong Athiest in the sense that I have few if any
doubts that the anthropomorphising of whatever the mystery of existence
and beauty might be is a projection... (wo)Man making God(dess) in
his/her own image. I find the stories of afterlife or repeated lives to
be at best interesting metaphors for how the meaning of the lives we
live might be tied to human history and future. I find the
anthropomorphised God(desse)s of Western (and many others) culture to be
a potentially useful way to tap into archetypicals understanding of
ourselves.

I also see that a great deal of horrific activity has been executed in
the name of various religions, but also suspect that those horrors were
not *caused* by religion so much as possibly "excused" by it.   I
suspect many of the folks involved in those "horrors" were both
malnourished in some way (even the "wealthy") as children and even
adults and quite possibly *suffered* their own "horrors" whilst growing
up (I've been watching GOT and might be conflating *that world* with our
own real metal-age feudal history.

- Steve

On 4/15/19 8:33 AM, glen∈ℂ wrote:

> On 4/14/19 7:06 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> 11. God; Goodnesss, Love energy, the Divine, a loving animating
>> intelligence, the Cosmic Muffin. You will worship and serve
>> something, so
>> like St. Bob said, you gotta choose. You can play on our side, or Bill
>> Maher's and Franklin Graham's.
> Would anyone care to explain the "our side" versus that of Bill Maher
> and Franklin Graham? My guess is that she sees Bill Maher as a
> fundamentalist, too, albeit an atheist fundamentalist? Or perhaps
> both Graham and Maher are Islamaphobes; so the "them" would be those
> who use religion to stoke fear?
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: Everything she knows...

I tend to think religion is precisely like any other form of thought, delusional at its core. I recently read this interview of Chomsky (https://chomsky.info/20001210/) and sympathize quite a bit. "The way you do it is by trying to do it yourself ... Nobody is going to pour truth into your brain. Its something you have to find out for yourself." Thinking is just action, exactly like throwing a baseball or cleaning grime from a carburetor. And you will only think like another person if you go through the same or similar actions/thinking the other person went through.

As such, religion is thought. So in the case of someone like Bill Maher who consistently isolates religion as "bad" is either familiar with that type of thought or not. Hostility can be bred from both familiarity or ignorance. But the hostility he (and others) show toward Islam seems to demonstrate that they haven't spent much time trying to think like a Muslim ... to steelman Islam. And until/unless they do, I find it difficult to take their criticism seriously. That aside, I'm a big fan of Maher when Maher talks about something he's apparently thought (deeply?) about. My fanaticism ends when he seems to talk about something he apparently hasn't given much (deep?) thought. C'est la vie. We are all good at some things, bad at other things.

I react to most atheists this way, perhaps unfortunately. But, then again, I react that way to everyone who is confident in their own thoughts. E.g. La Mott's "You will worship and serve something, so like St. Bob said, you gotta choose." I doubt it ... I doubt everything about that sentiment, "worship", "serve", "some[ ]thing", the necessity of a (binary?) choice. Everything about it screams pithy pseudo-profundity (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/per.2176). But, like Maher, most of the rest of that essay is fantastic and exhibits clear effort.

And it's really not a problem to turn on and off that admiration/affiliation/worship/service at will. I marvel at those who artificially unify whatever it is they attend. Growing up, the phrase "cafeteria Catholicism" was an insult. To me, it's a compliment. Parts of Catholicism are just plain stupid. Other parts are brilliant wisdom ... just like everything else in the universe.

On 4/16/19 2:18 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Your question demonstrates that you are a more careful/thorough reader
> than I.   I somehow skimmed over the Maher/Graham allusion and even had
> to Google Graham to find out what HE was about.
>
> I've only recently "discovered" Bill Maher... and after listening to
> him semi-regularly for several months was still surprised to find out
> that he calls down the wrath of some on the left.   Once again, maybe I
> wasn't *listening* close enough, or maybe I was guilty of letting some
> of his more egregious statements roll over me out of my infatuation with
> the general thrust (and boldly wry style) of his message, similar to the
> way Trumpists seem to do for/with him (though their sins of omission
> seem much larger in quantity and quality?).
>
> I *have* heard him go off on *all religion* and once alerted to it (and
> read some quotes from his screeds against Islam) recognize he has a
> special place in his heart filled with fear (and judgement?) of their
> (extremists?) religion.
>
> I am personally a strong Athiest in the sense that I have few if any
> doubts that the anthropomorphising of whatever the mystery of existence
> and beauty might be is a projection... (wo)Man making God(dess) in
> his/her own image. I find the stories of afterlife or repeated lives to
> be at best interesting metaphors for how the meaning of the lives we
> live might be tied to human history and future. I find the
> anthropomorphised God(desse)s of Western (and many others) culture to be
> a potentially useful way to tap into archetypicals understanding of
> ourselves.
>
> I also see that a great deal of horrific activity has been executed in
> the name of various religions, but also suspect that those horrors were
> not *caused* by religion so much as possibly "excused" by it.   I
> suspect many of the folks involved in those "horrors" were both
> malnourished in some way (even the "wealthy") as children and even
> adults and quite possibly *suffered* their own "horrors" whilst growing
> up (I've been watching GOT and might be conflating *that world* with our
> own real metal-age feudal history.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Everything she knows...

I sometimes find Maher entertaining but John Oliver has a better show in that it is a synthesis, weaponized to make a point. Oliver's researchers could probably get a job for Frontline just as well. Maher is more like a show for venting and schadenfreude -- it is different from a sermon. You're not looking for inspiration or guidance on Maher. A person prone to religion would have that weakness.

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gepr

Re: Everything she knows...

I agree. However, Oliver's show is too scripted for my tastes. I like the risk Maher takes with his format (initial guest, panel, special member of the panel added later). And although I thought he treated Preet Bharara terribly a couple of episodes back, it's that "aliveness" that keeps me watching. Oliver's show can feel a bit dead ... like fight choreography as opposed to an actual sparring match.

On 4/16/19 3:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I sometimes find Maher entertaining but John Oliver has a better show in that it is a synthesis, weaponized to make a point. Oliver's researchers could probably get a job for Frontline just as well. Maher is more like a show for venting and schadenfreude -- it is different from a sermon. You're not looking for inspiration or guidance on Maher. A person prone to religion would have that weakness.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Everything she knows...

La Mott's Number 1 (All truth is a paradox) reminds me of a joke I heard from a friend in Pittsburgh many years ago:

The most senior rabbi (priest, imam, roshi, whatever) was in the last moments of his life. All the other rabbis were assembled around his deathbed. One of the other senior rabbis reverently asked, "Rebbe, what is the meaning of life?" The dying man took a breath and said, "Life is a river.". The others stirred and several asked what he must have meant. The questioner gently asked, "Rebbe, what does it mean life is a river?". With an impatient expression the old man answered, "So, it isn't a river".

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 4:40 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree. However, Oliver's show is too scripted for my tastes. I like the risk Maher takes with his format (initial guest, panel, special member of the panel added later). And although I thought he treated Preet Bharara terribly a couple of episodes back, it's that "aliveness" that keeps me watching. Oliver's show can feel a bit dead ... like fight choreography as opposed to an actual sparring match.

On 4/16/19 3:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I sometimes find Maher entertaining but John Oliver has a better show in that it is a synthesis, weaponized to make a point. Oliver's researchers could probably get a job for Frontline just as well. Maher is more like a show for venting and schadenfreude -- it is different from a sermon. You're not looking for inspiration or guidance on Maher. A person prone to religion would have that weakness.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================
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Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

I have to read your memoir. Hope that Amazon delivers it to Europe. If they do I will try to read it in the next vacation.

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 20:51 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

1. Come to Santa Fe when you can.

2. La Mott says that writing, rather than being published, bestows the benefits.

I understand your struggles with the story of your parents' lives. When I wrote my little memoir I made discoveries like "this couldn't have happened before that" that I had to straighten out.

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 12:43 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

About the last point 14, death: I believe the best way to fight against the destructive force of death is to be creative, to create something. It is what genes repeatedly do. They create bodies as survival vehicles for themselves, again and again. As Barack Obama said about Notre Dame "It’s in our nature to mourn when we see history lost – but it’s also in our nature to rebuild for tomorrow, as strong as we can" (Do you miss him in the White House as well?)
https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1117886698568830976

After my parents died a few years ago I'm trying to write a biography about their life, which is quite hard. The more you write, the harder it gets, because it becomes harder to fit everything together and your own text puts you down. And if you want it to be good, you have to proofread it over and over again until you can't see it anymore and then 10 times more. However I think I have finished it now and will publish it this year together with the other book. It is not perfect and will not bring them back to life but it is the best I could do.

I'm thinking of Doug Roberts sometimes, who frequently wrote to this list and died too early as well. Honestly I don't know much about him, except that he had a parrot farm, and often wrote some funny or interesting stuff here. It would be wonderful if someone could write a book, ebook or something about the FRIAM group, the real one that meets in Santa Fe. I can't do that because I've never been there. As you know everything which is not recorded or written down gets lost in the course of time.

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------
From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Date: 4/15/19 04:06 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

This is an essay by Anne La Mott that I came across 4 years ago. It may seem that a late middle-aged non-scientist could not could contribute philosophical thoughts that are worthy of the heights of Friam but I find that it integrates the sublime and the ridiculous quite well. Kind of like Friam meetings. The posts on the List are a little more coherent.

I was ten years old when she was born. She is a successful novelist, essayist, and short-story writer.

"I am going to be 61 years old in 48 hours. Wow. I thought i was only forty-seven, but looking over the paperwork, I see that I was born in 1954. My inside self does not have an age, although can't help mentioning as an aside that it might have been useful had I not followed the Skin Care rules of the sixties, ie to get as much sun as possible, while slathered in baby oil. (My sober friend Paul O said, at eighty, that he felt like a young man who had something wrong with him.). Anyway, I thought I might take the opportunity to write down every single thing I know, as of today.

1. All truth is a paradox. Life is a precious unfathomably beautiful gift; and it is impossible here, on the incarnational side of things. It has been a very bad match for those of us who were born extremely sensitive. It is so hard and weird that we wonder if we are being punked. And it filled with heartbreaking sweetness and beauty, floods and babies and acne and Mozart, all swirled together.

2. Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes, including you.

3. There is almost nothing outside of you that will help in any kind of last way, unless you are waiting for an organ. You can't buy, achieve, or date it. This is the most horrible truth.

4. Everyone is screwed up, broken, clingy, and scared, even the people who seem to have it more or less together. They are much more like you than you would believe. So try not to compare your insides to their outsides. Also, you can't save, fix or rescue any of them, or get any of them sober. But radical self-care is quantum, and radiates out into the atmosphere, like a little fresh air. It is a huge gift to the world. When people respond by saying, "Well, isn't she full of herself," smile obliquely, like Mona Lisa, and make both of you a nice cup of tea.

5. Chocolate with 70% cacao is not actually a food. It's best use is as bait in snake traps.

6. Writing: shitty first drafts. Butt in chair. Just do it. You own everything that happened to you. You are going to feel like hell if you never write the stuff that is tugging on the sleeves in your heart--your stories, visions, memories, songs: your truth, your version of things, in your voice. That is really all you have to offer us, and it's why you were born

7. Publication and temporary creative successes are something you have to recover from. They kill as many people as not. They will hurt, damage and change you in ways you cannot imagine. The most degraded and sometimes nearly-evil men I have known were all writers who'd had bestsellers. Yet, it is also a miracle to get your work published (see #1.). Just try to bust yourself gently of the fantasy that publication will heal you, will fill the Swiss cheesey holes. It won't, it can't. But writing can. So can singing.

8. Families; hard, hard, hard, no matter how cherished and astonishing they may also be. (See #1 again.) At family gatherings where you suddenly feel homicidal or suicidal, remember that in half of all cases, it's a miracle that this annoying person even lived. Earth is Forgiveness School. You might as well start at the dinner table. That way, you can do this work in comfortable pants. When Blake said that we are here to learn to endure the beams of love, he knew that your family would be an intimate part of this, even as you want to run screaming for your cute little life. But that you are up to it. You can do it, Cinderellie. You will be amazed.

9. Food; try to do a little better.

10. Grace: Spiritual WD-40. Water wings. The mystery of grace is that God loves Dick Cheney and me exactly as much as He or She loves your grandchild. Go figure. The movement of grace is what changes us, heals us and our world. To summon grace, say, "Help!" And then buckle up. Grace won't look like Casper the Friendly Ghost; but the phone will ring, or the mail will come, and then against all odds, you will get your sense of humor about yourself back. Laughter really is carbonated holiness, even if you are sick of me saying it.

11. God; Goodnesss, Love energy, the Divine, a loving animating intelligence, the Cosmic Muffin. You will worship and serve something, so like St. Bob said, you gotta choose. You can play on our side, or Bill Maher's and Franklin Graham's. Emerson said that the happiest person on earth is the one who learns from nature the lessons of worship. So go outside a lot, and look up. My pastor says you can trap bees on the floor of a Mason jar without a lid, because they don't look up. If they did, they could fly to freedom.

11. Faith: Paul Tillich said the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. If I could say one thing to our little Tea Party friends, it would be this. Fundamentalism, in all its forms, is 90% of the reason the world is so terrifying. 3% is the existence of snakes. The love of our incredible dogs and cats is the closest most of us will come, on this side of eternity, to knowing the direct love of God; although cats can be so bitter, which is not the god part: the crazy Love is. Also, "Figure it out" is not a good slogan.

12. Jesus; Jesus would have even loved horrible, mealy-mouth self-obsessed you, as if you were the only person on earth. But He would hope that you would perhaps pull yourself together just the tiniest, tiniest bit--maybe have a little something to eat, and a nap.

13. Exercise: If you want to have a good life after you have grown a little less young, you must walk almost every day. There is no way around this. If you are in a wheelchair, you must do chair exercises. Every single doctor on earth will tell you this, so don't go by what I say.

14. Death; wow. So f-ing hard to bear, when the few people you cannot live without die. You will never get over these losses, and are not supposed to. We Christians like to think death is a major change of address, but in any case, the person will live fully again in your heart, at some point, and make you smile at the MOST inappropriate times. But their absence will also be a lifelong nightmare of homesickness for you. All truth is a paradox. Grief, friends, time and tears will heal you. Tears will bathe and baptize and hydrate you and the ground on which you walk. The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know.

I think that's it, everything I know. I wish I had shoe-horned in what E.L. Doctorow said about writing: "It's like driving at night with the headlights on. You can only see a little aways ahead of you, but you can make the whole journey that way." I love that, because it's teue about everything we tey. I wish I had slipped in what Ram Das said, that when all is said and done, we're just all walking each other home. Oh, well, another time. God bless you all good."

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

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gepr

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by gepr

On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:
> I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.

I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an organization together. But until Renee' finished school we were rooted here.

> While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.

This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids and their crowd believe(d). It felt much more like an ethical system than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI). I also can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of Molly in their crowd. That group flowed smoothly between art and tech, equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.

As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: Everything she knows...

Glen,

Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.

Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.

For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.

davew

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:

> On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:
> > I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.
>
> I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an
> organization together. But until Renee' finished school we were rooted
> here.
>
> > While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.
>
> This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids
> and their crowd believe(d). It felt much more like an ethical system
> than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with
> the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social
> vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the
> kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious
> belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs
> in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI). I also
> can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of
> Molly in their crowd. That group flowed smoothly between art and tech,
> equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about
> music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.
>
> As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic
> activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Everything she knows...

Nick,

By the way, my interpretation of the alleged joke about the rabbis is that it's a failure of metaphor when the listeners are too literal.

Frank

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 8:39 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen,

Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.

Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.

For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.

davew

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:
> On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:
> > I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.
>
> I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an
> organization together. But until Renee' finished school we were rooted
> here.
>
> > While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.
>
> This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids
> and their crowd believe(d). It felt much more like an ethical system
> than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with
> the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social
> vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the
> kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious
> belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs
> in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI). I also
> can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of
> Molly in their crowd. That group flowed smoothly between art and tech,
> equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about
> music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.
>
> As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic
> activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: Everything she knows...

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Dave/Glen -

What I'm hearing about some European youth cultures seems very promising. I can't begin to know what to attribute it to, and I feel mildly superstitious about trying to describe it as a "new precedent" that might presage a fundamental cultural shift following that demographic.

References to Molly and other consciousness-expanding drugs seem to often come up in this context. As an outsider (but nearby observer) to the culture of mind expanding drugs, I don't have very informed opinions. Since terms like "worship" and "spiritual" have come up in the text of our contemporary threads a few times, I thought I might zoom in on this contrast as found in the Psychedelic Times website:

What’s in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic, Hallucinogen, and Entheogen

The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding substances like psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are important in what they say about our understanding of their value and proper use. When people use the term hallucinogen, there is little to no recognition in that word for the therapeutic and beneficial applications for these substances. On the other hand, those in line with the mystical traditions of the world may prefer to use the term entheogen because of its specific denotation about their inherent sacredness. And for those who are somewhere in the middle and want to describe these substances in a more clinical way but still honor their efficacy at bringing forth powerful personal transformation, the term psychedelic offers the best of both worlds.

It seems to me that some of this is about "what unites us?" It seems that independent of the Entheogenic aspect of these drugs, some of them (MDMA and DMT based in particular?) seem to lower the ego-boundaries (while the others "expand"? the ego?) I'm sure there are more than a few here who are much more familiar and informed on these topics than I will likely ever be. The topic appears to be one of those which is much too subjective to ever be very objective about. "you had to be there"?

I have two young (30-something)close friends/colleagues from UK/Spain who visit semi-regularly and introduce me to a wide variety of their own euro-crowd (e.g. Poland, E. Germany, Ukraine, Wales, Spain, etc.). What they have in common includes being very technologically savvy but working in highly creative/artistic domains, and being well traveled. Many of them do not own personal vehicles, and several do not even have drivers licenses. They seem to have very fluid boundaries between their personal, professional, and creative lives. To my awareness, their social fluidity is intrinsic to their culture, but may be lubricated by their fairly pervasive use of Nicotine, THC, Alcohol, and Caffeine... fairly standard fair among a broader group (though Nicotine seems in severe decline among baby boomers).

Responding to Dave's reference to Heinlein's _Stranger_ and the "CAW"... I read _Stranger_ a bit too young for the material (perhaps age 12?) about 8 years after it was published. I had hit my stride as an "unbeliever" in all of the conventional religions I had been offered (directly or by exposure), and while my older sister (14) was busy seeking even harder for a religion she could sink her ego into, I was coming to the belief that such embedding was maybe a false path and was looking for ways to dance lightly on the surface of as many of them as I felt were relevant to me and my trajectory in life. The substance of _Stranger_ was very compelling to me at the time (as was most if not all of RAH's material) but the CAW was no more compelling than the varied Protestant churches, Catholics, and LDS I was surrounded by. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Animism, etc. were all terms I was aware of but had very little understanding of. They all (except maybe the last two?) seemed to be arcane and archaic systems of "conveyed mystery" more than a self-evident system for navigating contemporary experience.

I had already become mildly aware of what was mostly derisively called "Secular Humanism" at the time and it seemed like a "darn good foundation" for living a thoughtful, ethical life. It seemed to me that to whatever extent the "reserved wisdom" of any particular religion was useful, it could be overlayed onto such a "secular" approach living a thoughtful, ethical life. The vehemence which I saw many of the churches *against* secular humanism respond, suggested to me that it held something a lot more powerful than I realized.

The recent (20 years?) fascination among my near-peers with entheogens, and in particular DMT variants, and more generally with the likes of Michael Pollan in his recent _How to Change your Mind_ and not-so-recent Oliver Sack's _Hallucinations_ , have lead me to have a more curious (if not open?) mind on the topic.

While it seems conceivable that there is a significant modern progressive youth culture that might imply a powerful paradigm shift which *depends* on MDMA (or similar) cognitive/social lubricants/solvents to achieve this level of social fluidity, it seems a shame if that is *necessary*. I'm willing to acknowledge that sometimes one must take various "shortcuts" while exploring new territory, but once the new territory is known to exist, other more "conventional" routes might be found.

In my never-ending quest for handholds for my scrambling optimism for a future for life, our species, our culture, I am grasping...

- Steve

Glen,

Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.

Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.

For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.

davew


On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:

On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:

I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.

I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an 
organization together.  But until Renee' finished school we were rooted 
here.

While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.

This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids 
and their crowd believe(d).  It felt much more like an ethical system 
than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with 
the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social 
vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the 
kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious 
belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs 
in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI).  I also 
can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of 
Molly in their crowd.  That group flowed smoothly between art and tech, 
equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about 
music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.

As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic 
activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Everything she knows...

Perhaps as efforts to address diseases like Parkinson’s and MS via gene therapy, there will be more interest in protection & enhancement cognition as well.

Of course there’s Kernel and Neuralink too. I know Kung Fu!

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30990-7

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 12:47 PM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

Dave/Glen -

What’s in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic, Hallucinogen, and Entheogen

The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding substances like psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are important in what they say about our understanding of their value and proper use. When people use the term hallucinogen, there is little to no recognition in that word for the therapeutic and beneficial applications for these substances. On the other hand, those in line with the mystical traditions of the world may prefer to use the term entheogen because of its specific denotation about their inherent sacredness. And for those who are somewhere in the middle and want to describe these substances in a more clinical way but still honor their efficacy at bringing forth powerful personal transformation, the term psychedelic offers the best of both worlds.

In my never-ending quest for handholds for my scrambling optimism for a future for life, our species, our culture, I am grasping...

- Steve

Glen,

Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.

Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.

For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.

davew

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:

On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:

I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.

I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an

organization together.  But until Renee' finished school we were rooted

here.

While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.

This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids

and their crowd believe(d).  It felt much more like an ethical system

than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with

the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social

vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the

kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious

belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs

in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI).  I also

can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of

Molly in their crowd.  That group flowed smoothly between art and tech,

equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about

music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.

As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic

activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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