Everything she knows...

[Jochen Fromm-5]

We have a kind of tunnelling in social systems for startups: they borrow money which they don't have from venture capital companies and banks, and this allows them to "tunnel" through unprofitable times.

About the dynamics of social genes: I think how the "secret" social genes control their organism is in fact quite difficult to describe. When the priest reads a certain part of the social DNA the audience immediately hears it, but if and when the rules have a concrete effect can not be predicted. It can be the next day or the next week or never at all. 

We know that emotions control bodies of biological organisms by increasing the readiness for actions. Nico Frijda describes it in his book "The emotions". Social genes work similar, they increase the readiness for actions, i.e. the likelihood that the members of the group behave in a certain way. It is is possible that some kind of probability theory can be used to describe it mathematically.

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 20:38 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

With quantum annealer, one can make the distinction between logical qubits and physical qubits.   Logical qubits can be formed from physical qubits by connecting physical qubits by strong pairwise ferromagnetic couplings.  The low energy state of a system thus (in principle) has physical qubits that are members of the logical qubit in the same state.   That’s all fine an good for ensuring a strong energy contrast between two logical values – and to be resistant to noise.   However, the cost of that is that for that logical qubit to participate in tunneling means that the whole set of physical qubits need to tunnel.   Think of a sci-fi story with a gateway to another world.   You are holding hands with your family, and your father steps through the Stargate.   He’s holding on to your mom’s hand but the chain be broken temporarily (and energy can fluctuate) as he is now in a different land.   Then she must be pulled and then your siblings.    These social genes make me think of dynamics like this.   The rate that progress can occur toward the global optimal is diminished given an the insistence of maintaining group coherence.

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 12:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

 

I would say any human individual serves multiple genes at once. First the normal, biological genes. The selfish genes as Dawkins called them. Then the other, hidden genes. I have written a book about it named "The secret genes" which I'm publishing now, this month. It is about the secret genes in the holy books of the big religions. We know them all as commandments, but normally we don't recognize them as what they are - cultural genes which create social lifeforms. Religious organizations are social lifeforms created by genes which are expressed in church services. Thus the temples from ancient civilizations are fossil remains of ancient lifeforms. Fascinating, isn't it? I try to explain it in more detail in the book. 

 

Since the content of the book is so explosive, I have decided to publish it in German first, to avoid some form of apocalypse like the collapse of civilization or Notre Dame burning down. But since nobody will read it anyway and Notre Dame has already burnt down there is no reason why it shouldn't be published in English. It doesn't really matter. If anyone will cause an apocalypse it is probably president Trump (nuclear, climate, or otherwise).

 

Cheers,

Jochen

 

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: glen∈ℂ <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 16:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

 

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves.  Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody.  Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body.  So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree.  But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

============================================================
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Frank Wimberly-2]

Maybe that's why the behavior of Trump supporters is incomprehensible to Biden supporters.

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 2:42 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

We have a kind of tunnelling in social systems for startups: they borrow money which they don't have from venture capital companies and banks, and this allows them to "tunnel" through unprofitable times.

About the dynamics of social genes: I think how the "secret" social genes control their organism is in fact quite difficult to describe. When the priest reads a certain part of the social DNA the audience immediately hears it, but if and when the rules have a concrete effect can not be predicted. It can be the next day or the next week or never at all. 

We know that emotions control bodies of biological organisms by increasing the readiness for actions. Nico Frijda describes it in his book "The emotions". Social genes work similar, they increase the readiness for actions, i.e. the likelihood that the members of the group behave in a certain way. It is is possible that some kind of probability theory can be used to describe it mathematically.

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 20:38 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

With quantum annealer, one can make the distinction between logical qubits and physical qubits.   Logical qubits can be formed from physical qubits by connecting physical qubits by strong pairwise ferromagnetic couplings.  The low energy state of a system thus (in principle) has physical qubits that are members of the logical qubit in the same state.   That’s all fine an good for ensuring a strong energy contrast between two logical values – and to be resistant to noise.   However, the cost of that is that for that logical qubit to participate in tunneling means that the whole set of physical qubits need to tunnel.   Think of a sci-fi story with a gateway to another world.   You are holding hands with your family, and your father steps through the Stargate.   He’s holding on to your mom’s hand but the chain be broken temporarily (and energy can fluctuate) as he is now in a different land.   Then she must be pulled and then your siblings.    These social genes make me think of dynamics like this.   The rate that progress can occur toward the global optimal is diminished given an the insistence of maintaining group coherence.

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 12:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

 

I would say any human individual serves multiple genes at once. First the normal, biological genes. The selfish genes as Dawkins called them. Then the other, hidden genes. I have written a book about it named "The secret genes" which I'm publishing now, this month. It is about the secret genes in the holy books of the big religions. We know them all as commandments, but normally we don't recognize them as what they are - cultural genes which create social lifeforms. Religious organizations are social lifeforms created by genes which are expressed in church services. Thus the temples from ancient civilizations are fossil remains of ancient lifeforms. Fascinating, isn't it? I try to explain it in more detail in the book. 

 

Since the content of the book is so explosive, I have decided to publish it in German first, to avoid some form of apocalypse like the collapse of civilization or Notre Dame burning down. But since nobody will read it anyway and Notre Dame has already burnt down there is no reason why it shouldn't be published in English. It doesn't really matter. If anyone will cause an apocalypse it is probably president Trump (nuclear, climate, or otherwise).

 

Cheers,

Jochen

 

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: glen∈ℂ <[hidden email]>

Date: 4/16/19 16:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

 

Well, there are at least 2 ways I disagree:

1) Any ecological individual serves multiple bodies at once, and
2) Any one can serve different bodies at different moments.

That we serve multiples presents a difference in degree so that there's a threshold for the number of bodies one serves.  Those that serve many many purposes (religions, saints, jobs, whatever) may *seem* as if they serve nobody.  Similarly, those of us who switch our affiliations on a minute-by-minute basis, may *seem* not to serve any one body.  So, if your gist is that those who *seem* to not serve somebody are really serving many bodies or rapidly switching affiliations, then I agree.  But if you insist on an artificial unification, then I disagree.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Jochen writes:

 

< We have a kind of tunnelling in social systems for startups: they borrow money which they don't have from venture capital companies and banks, and this allows them to "tunnel" through unprofitable times. >

 

Seems thermal to me.   A start-up is hot, high-energy, even reckless, and bounces all over the place in the hopes of finding a profitable business model.   A mature company makes more conservative moves and prefers to be cold.   If it has to heat things up it will, but generally uses lawyers and IP law to prevent competition rather than letting the bounds of the competition become hard to predict.

 

Marcus

 

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Steve Smith]

Marcus -

Perhaps ... there will be more interest in protection & enhancement cognition as well.

Of course there’s Kernel and Neuralink too.    I know Kung Fu!

 

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30990-7

You have referenced various technologies and ideas which I relate mostly to trans-humanism.   The softer versions IMO are things like advanced prosthetics, HCI enhancement and (mild) Gene Editing on up through significant self-modification (embedded tech as well as genetics) to the radical things folks such as Diamandis and Kurzweil and ultimately a technological singularity.  

There is a LOT of ground in that spectrum and we've already covered some of it as humans.  Earlier references to the co-evolution of humans and canines were not as intentional, but nevertheless seems to have changed "who we are".  Similar relationships with reindeer and other herd animals as well as even various plants (e.g. what became modern grains, fruits, and squash/melons).   Tribal/cultural taboos and kinship systems regulated "breeding", etc.

I came of age after the "golden age" of Speculative Fiction (I was born under the rising sign of Sputnik) which plopped me right into the SciFi era of more realistic Space Exploration (still wildly speculative, but replacing old-form Space Opera with more realistic (given the immenseness of Interstellar Space and issues like Relativity).  Proto Cyberpunk was in the air (i.e. Phillip K. Dick, John Brunner, etc.) with the rapidly increasing relevance of digital technology.   Cyberpunk hit hard with Sterling and Gibson and brought to a larger readership with the likes of Stephenson, Cadigan, Banks, et al.

In the Spirit of the Generation W, X, Y, Z discussion.  I believe that these "bards" of Sci and Tech helped to form and seed our imaginations for our future careers.   It seems that X gen is much more on-board with Cybernetic and Genetic enhancement.

My Second Cousin once removed (my mother was raised by her grandmother, who was HER aunt) Vonda McIntyre died a few weeks ago at 70.   She was an influential Speculative Fiction writer whose chops included founding the Clarion West Writer's workshop and a handful of Hugo and Nebula awards. Particularly poignant for her was beating out JRR Martin in 97 for his Game Of Thrones with her Moon and Sun, then having her book made into a Movie (starring Pierce Brosnan) that *never got released* while Martin... well, you know...   She had a degree in Biology, did grad work in Genetics and hung around the HIT (human interface and technology) lab at UW long after graduation.    Her _Starfarer_ series included the trope of trans/post humanism, inspired or fashioned partly with her fascination with the Pods of Orcas living amongst the San Juan Islands nearly in her back yard.    

I personally expect *practical* post/transhumanism to continue inevitably at an accelerated rate and see no advantage in trying to stand in it's way, but DO feel an ethical drive to try to at least caution against the kinds of technological-outrunning-of-headlights I believe already lead us to things like Dustbowl, Wildfire, Infestation, and Inundation disasters, and pointedly Anthropogenic Climate Change (which contributes to all of the above) and multigenerational Refugee Crises.  

As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas involved?  Do you see my "caution" as wrong headed, or just irrelevant (in practice)?

- Steve

 

 

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Steven A Smith [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 12:47 PM
To: [hidden email] [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

 

Dave/Glen -

What I'm hearing about some European youth cultures seems very promising.  I can't begin to know what to attribute it to, and I feel mildly superstitious about trying to describe it as a "new precedent" that might presage a fundamental cultural shift following that demographic.

References to Molly and other consciousness-expanding drugs seem to often come up in this context.  As an outsider (but nearby observer) to the culture of mind expanding drugs, I don't have very informed opinions.   Since terms like "worship" and "spiritual" have come up in the text of our contemporary threads a few times, I thought I might zoom in on this contrast as found in the Psychedelic Times website:

What’s in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic, Hallucinogen, and Entheogen

The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding substances like psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are important in what they say about our understanding of their value and proper use. When people use the term hallucinogen, there is little to no recognition in that word for the therapeutic and beneficial applications for these substances. On the other hand, those in line with the mystical traditions of the world may prefer to use the term entheogen because of its specific denotation about their inherent sacredness. And for those who are somewhere in the middle and want to describe these substances in a more clinical way but still honor their efficacy at bringing forth powerful personal transformation, the term psychedelic offers the best of both worlds.

It seems to me that some of this is about "what unites us?"  It seems that independent of the Entheogenic aspect of these drugs, some of them (MDMA and DMT based in particular?) seem to lower the ego-boundaries (while the others "expand"? the ego?)   I'm sure there are more than a few here who are much more familiar and informed on these topics than I will likely ever be.   The topic appears to be one of those which is much too subjective to ever be very objective about.  "you had to be there"?

 

I have two young (30-something)close friends/colleagues from UK/Spain who visit semi-regularly and introduce me to a wide variety of their own euro-crowd (e.g. Poland, E. Germany, Ukraine, Wales, Spain, etc.).  What they have in common includes being very technologically savvy but working in highly creative/artistic domains, and being well traveled.   Many of them do not own personal vehicles, and several do not even have drivers licenses.   They seem to have very fluid boundaries between their personal, professional, and creative lives.   To my awareness, their social fluidity is intrinsic to their culture, but may be lubricated by their fairly pervasive use of Nicotine, THC, Alcohol, and Caffeine... fairly standard fair among a broader group (though Nicotine seems in severe decline among baby boomers).

 

Responding to Dave's reference to Heinlein's _Stranger_ and the "CAW"...   I read _Stranger_  a bit too young for the material (perhaps age 12?) about 8 years after it was published.   I had hit my stride as an "unbeliever" in all of the conventional religions I had been offered (directly or by exposure), and while my older sister (14) was busy seeking even harder for a religion she could sink her ego into, I was coming to the belief that such embedding was maybe a false path and was looking for ways to dance lightly on the surface of as many of them as I felt were relevant to me and my trajectory in life.   The substance of _Stranger_ was very compelling to me at the time (as was most if not all of RAH's material) but the CAW was no more compelling than the varied Protestant churches, Catholics, and LDS I was surrounded by.   Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Animism, etc.   were all terms I was aware of but had very little understanding of.   They all (except maybe the last two?) seemed to be arcane and archaic systems of "conveyed mystery" more than a self-evident system for navigating contemporary experience.

 

I had already become mildly aware of what was mostly derisively called "Secular Humanism" at the time and it seemed like a "darn good foundation" for living a thoughtful, ethical life.  It seemed to me that to whatever extent the "reserved wisdom" of any particular religion was useful, it could be overlayed onto such a "secular" approach living a thoughtful, ethical life.    The vehemence which I saw many of the churches *against* secular humanism respond, suggested to me that it held something a lot more powerful than I realized.  

 

The recent (20 years?) fascination among my near-peers with entheogens, and in particular DMT variants, and more generally with the likes of Michael Pollan in his  recent  _How to Change your Mind_ and not-so-recent Oliver Sack's _Hallucinations_ , have lead me to have a more curious (if not open?) mind on the topic.

 

While it seems conceivable that there is a significant modern progressive youth culture that might imply a powerful paradigm shift which *depends* on MDMA (or similar) cognitive/social lubricants/solvents to achieve this level of social fluidity, it seems a shame if that is *necessary*.   I'm willing to acknowledge that sometimes one must take various "shortcuts" while exploring new territory, but once the new territory is known to exist,  other more "conventional" routes might be found.  

 

In my never-ending quest for handholds for my scrambling optimism for a future for life, our species, our culture, I am grasping...

 

- Steve

Glen,

Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.

Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.

For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.

davew

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:

On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:

I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.

I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an 

organization together.  But until Renee' finished school we were rooted 

here.

While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.

This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids 

and their crowd believe(d).  It felt much more like an ethical system 

than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with 

the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social 

vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the 

kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious 

belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs 

in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI).  I also 

can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of 

Molly in their crowd.  That group flowed smoothly between art and tech, 

equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about 

music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.

As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic 

activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Steve writes:

< I personally expect *practical* post/transhumanism to continue inevitably at an accelerated rate and see no advantage in trying to stand in it's way, but DO feel an ethical drive to try to at least caution against the kinds of technological-outrunning-of-headlights I believe already lead us to things like Dustbowl, Wildfire, Infestation, and Inundation disasters, and pointedly Anthropogenic Climate Change (which contributes to all of the above) and multigenerational Refugee Crises.   >

We need better headlights:  Individuals that are better able to ingest and synthesize information and to look after themselves as well as whatever group that remains after the next set of catastrophes that are surely coming.    Plainly, the scientific consensus is a big joke, e.g. the Paris Agreement.   The future is private research for private interests.    Get with it!

< As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas involved?  Do you see my "caution" as wrong headed, or just irrelevant (in practice)? >

I just see your caution as irrelevant.   People of means that see sufficient promise will go wherever they need to do perform the procedures that interest them, whether it is for engineering their kids to be smart and attractive or for high-risk disease intervention or enhancement for themselves.   There’s even an established market and television programs about it – all the people that go to plastic surgeons!   Sooner or later word will get out about the successes and failures.    And with one more term of Trump, there just will be no more `us’, and no meaningful concept of regulation for the greater good. 

Transhumanism is a quaint term that suggests a collective that is improving.   It won’t be the collective, it will be a select few. 

Marcus

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

< As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas involved?  >

Here are a couple in the news recently. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/gene-therapy-cures-infants-with-bubble-boy-immune-disease/2019/04/17/ec4b131e-60ff-11e9-bfad-36a7eb36cb60_story.html

https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/cm_lFZDERHcELSPw2fEioYAgqbNOHU3t/the-chairman-aclu-genetic-revolution/  (29 minutes 37 seconds in)

I call it re-programming, and programs can do anything.

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[Prof David West]

Replying mostly to Steve's post about psychedelics /CAW,

I was a member of the Minneapolis Nest of CAW when I was an undergraduate student 68-72 and I must confess it was mostly about the sex, closely followed by struggles to re-define gender/social relationships/roles when everyone acknowledged, "Thou Art God." The "spiritual" never went much beyond pop, new age, psychology Gaia adoration. And psychedelics were not part of the equation.

When I get back home to the US, I should look up my notes and writings from that time re: gender/social redefinition - it might be relevant but dated to a subset of issues that could arise from trans-humanism. How will we all interact when all of will acknowledge, "Thou Art Uploaded."

I have extensive experience with all of the psychedlics (psylocibin, lsd, peyote, mescaline, ariocarpus, etc.). Except for my first experience, mushrooms as I remember, none of the use was 'recreational'. All of the use was entwined with my pursuit of "mystical" insights via meditation, yoga, etc. Eventually all of that was subsumed under the research umbrella of my Ph.D. work in cognitive anthropology.

For me, at a deeply personal level, a benefit of all this is what feels like an insight into the myriad, totally artificial, totally arbitrary facades that have been constructed around issues of epistemology. Corollary to that is the mandated privilege accorded to rational, scientific, mathematical, computational "thinking" and "knowing" even when it is evident that such thinking resolves only the simplest of questions. As our friend was always saying at FRIAM, "ah, but it is more complicated than that."

Molly, I have found, is most useful when it forces us to confront the artificial boundaries and limitations that all of us adopt vis-a-vis interpersonal interaction. In the CAW nest, a culture of exploration/questioning/permissiveness existed that allowed the struggles to redefine mentioned in the first paragraph. Absent such a culture, Molly, in a guided context can allow similar questioning.

davew

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Marcus -

Perhaps ... there will be more interest in protection & enhancement cognition as well.

Of course there’s Kernel and Neuralink too.    I know Kung Fu!

 

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30990-7

You have referenced various technologies and ideas which I relate mostly to trans-humanism.   The softer versions IMO are things like advanced prosthetics, HCI enhancement and (mild) Gene Editing on up through significant self-modification (embedded tech as well as genetics) to the radical things folks such as Diamandis and Kurzweil and ultimately a technological singularity.  

There is a LOT of ground in that spectrum and we've already covered some of it as humans.  Earlier references to the co-evolution of humans and canines were not as intentional, but nevertheless seems to have changed "who we are".  Similar relationships with reindeer and other herd animals as well as even various plants (e.g. what became modern grains, fruits, and squash/melons).   Tribal/cultural taboos and kinship systems regulated "breeding", etc.

I came of age after the "golden age" of Speculative Fiction (I was born under the rising sign of Sputnik) which plopped me right into the SciFi era of more realistic Space Exploration (still wildly speculative, but replacing old-form Space Opera with more realistic (given the immenseness of Interstellar Space and issues like Relativity).  Proto Cyberpunk was in the air (i.e. Phillip K. Dick, John Brunner, etc.) with the rapidly increasing relevance of digital technology.   Cyberpunk hit hard with Sterling and Gibson and brought to a larger readership with the likes of Stephenson, Cadigan, Banks, et al.

In the Spirit of the Generation W, X, Y, Z discussion.  I believe that these "bards" of Sci and Tech helped to form and seed our imaginations for our future careers.   It seems that X gen is much more on-board with Cybernetic and Genetic enhancement.

My Second Cousin once removed (my mother was raised by her grandmother, who was HER aunt) Vonda McIntyre died a few weeks ago at 70.   She was an influential Speculative Fiction writer whose chops included founding the Clarion West Writer's workshop and a handful of Hugo and Nebula awards. Particularly poignant for her was beating out JRR Martin in 97 for his Game Of Thrones with her Moon and Sun, then having her book made into a Movie (starring Pierce Brosnan) that *never got released* while Martin... well, you know...   She had a degree in Biology, did grad work in Genetics and hung around the HIT (human interface and technology) lab at UW long after graduation.    Her _Starfarer_ series included the trope of trans/post humanism, inspired or fashioned partly with her fascination with the Pods of Orcas living amongst the San Juan Islands nearly in her back yard.    

I personally expect *practical* post/transhumanism to continue inevitably at an accelerated rate and see no advantage in trying to stand in it's way, but DO feel an ethical drive to try to at least caution against the kinds of technological-outrunning-of-headlights I believe already lead us to things like Dustbowl, Wildfire, Infestation, and Inundation disasters, and pointedly Anthropogenic Climate Change (which contributes to all of the above) and multigenerational Refugee Crises.  

As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas involved?  Do you see my "caution" as wrong headed, or just irrelevant (in practice)?

- Steve

 

 

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Steven A Smith [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 12:47 PM
To: [hidden email] [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...

 

Dave/Glen -

What I'm hearing about some European youth cultures seems very promising.  I can't begin to know what to attribute it to, and I feel mildly superstitious about trying to describe it as a "new precedent" that might presage a fundamental cultural shift following that demographic.

References to Molly and other consciousness-expanding drugs seem to often come up in this context.  As an outsider (but nearby observer) to the culture of mind expanding drugs, I don't have very informed opinions.   Since terms like "worship" and "spiritual" have come up in the text of our contemporary threads a few times, I thought I might zoom in on this contrast as found in the Psychedelic Times website:

What’s in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic, Hallucinogen, and Entheogen

The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding substances like psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are important in what they say about our understanding of their value and proper use. When people use the term hallucinogen, there is little to no recognition in that word for the therapeutic and beneficial applications for these substances. On the other hand, those in line with the mystical traditions of the world may prefer to use the term entheogen because of its specific denotation about their inherent sacredness. And for those who are somewhere in the middle and want to describe these substances in a more clinical way but still honor their efficacy at bringing forth powerful personal transformation, the term psychedelic offers the best of both worlds.

It seems to me that some of this is about "what unites us?"  It seems that independent of the Entheogenic aspect of these drugs, some of them (MDMA and DMT based in particular?) seem to lower the ego-boundaries (while the others "expand"? the ego?)   I'm sure there are more than a few here who are much more familiar and informed on these topics than I will likely ever be.   The topic appears to be one of those which is much too subjective to ever be very objective about.  "you had to be there"?

 

I have two young (30-something)close friends/colleagues from UK/Spain who visit semi-regularly and introduce me to a wide variety of their own euro-crowd (e.g. Poland, E. Germany, Ukraine, Wales, Spain, etc.).  What they have in common includes being very technologically savvy but working in highly creative/artistic domains, and being well traveled.   Many of them do not own personal vehicles, and several do not even have drivers licenses.   They seem to have very fluid boundaries between their personal, professional, and creative lives.   To my awareness, their social fluidity is intrinsic to their culture, but may be lubricated by their fairly pervasive use of Nicotine, THC, Alcohol, and Caffeine... fairly standard fair among a broader group (though Nicotine seems in severe decline among baby boomers).

 

Responding to Dave's reference to Heinlein's _Stranger_ and the "CAW"...   I read _Stranger_  a bit too young for the material (perhaps age 12?) about 8 years after it was published.   I had hit my stride as an "unbeliever" in all of the conventional religions I had been offered (directly or by exposure), and while my older sister (14) was busy seeking even harder for a religion she could sink her ego into, I was coming to the belief that such embedding was maybe a false path and was looking for ways to dance lightly on the surface of as many of them as I felt were relevant to me and my trajectory in life.   The substance of _Stranger_ was very compelling to me at the time (as was most if not all of RAH's material) but the CAW was no more compelling than the varied Protestant churches, Catholics, and LDS I was surrounded by.   Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Animism, etc.   were all terms I was aware of but had very little understanding of.   They all (except maybe the last two?) seemed to be arcane and archaic systems of "conveyed mystery" more than a self-evident system for navigating contemporary experience.

 

I had already become mildly aware of what was mostly derisively called "Secular Humanism" at the time and it seemed like a "darn good foundation" for living a thoughtful, ethical life.  It seemed to me that to whatever extent the "reserved wisdom" of any particular religion was useful, it could be overlayed onto such a "secular" approach living a thoughtful, ethical life.    The vehemence which I saw many of the churches *against* secular humanism respond, suggested to me that it held something a lot more powerful than I realized.  

 

The recent (20 years?) fascination among my near-peers with entheogens, and in particular DMT variants, and more generally with the likes of Michael Pollan in his  recent  _How to Change your Mind_ and not-so-recent Oliver Sack's _Hallucinations_ , have lead me to have a more curious (if not open?) mind on the topic.

 

While it seems conceivable that there is a significant modern progressive youth culture that might imply a powerful paradigm shift which *depends* on MDMA (or similar) cognitive/social lubricants/solvents to achieve this level of social fluidity, it seems a shame if that is *necessary*.   I'm willing to acknowledge that sometimes one must take various "shortcuts" while exploring new territory, but once the new territory is known to exist,  other more "conventional" routes might be found.  

 

In my never-ending quest for handholds for my scrambling optimism for a future for life, our species, our culture, I am grasping...

 

- Steve

Glen,

Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.

Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.

For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.

davew

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:

On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:

I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.

I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an 

organization together.  But until Renee' finished school we were rooted 

here.

While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.

This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids 

and their crowd believe(d).  It felt much more like an ethical system 

than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with 

the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social 

vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the 

kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious 

belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs 

in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI).  I also 

can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of 

Molly in their crowd.  That group flowed smoothly between art and tech, 

equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about 

music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.

As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic 

activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.

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[gepr]

And ...

Restoration of brain circulation and cellular functions hours post-mortem
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1099-1

I've been guilty of calling the "brain in a vat" thought experiment silly. I'll have to stop doing that now.

On 4/17/19 4:09 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> < As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas involved?  >
>
> Here are a couple in the news recently.
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/gene-therapy-cures-infants-with-bubble-boy-immune-disease/2019/04/17/ec4b131e-60ff-11e9-bfad-36a7eb36cb60_story.html
>
> https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/cm_lFZDERHcELSPw2fEioYAgqbNOHU3t/the-chairman-aclu-genetic-revolution/  (29 minutes 37 seconds in)
>
> I call it re-programming, and programs can do anything.

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[Steve Smith]

Marcus -

< I personally expect *practical* post/transhumanism to continue inevitably at an accelerated rate and see no advantage in trying to stand in it's way, but DO feel an ethical drive to try to at least caution against the kinds of technological-outrunning-of-headlights I believe already lead us to things like Dustbowl, Wildfire, Infestation, and Inundation disasters, and pointedly Anthropogenic Climate Change (which contributes to all of the above) and multigenerational Refugee Crises.   >

We need better headlights:  Individuals that are better able to ingest and synthesize information and to look after themselves as well as whatever group that remains after the next set of catastrophes that are surely coming.    Plainly, the scientific consensus is a big joke, e.g. the Paris Agreement.   The future is private research for private interests.    Get with it!

We need better headlights.  

We can turn up the brightness and narrow the focus to maximize flux, but for many problems, that is not unlike hitting our high beams in a snowstorm or fogbank.   One of the things I hope (mostly in vain, but not entirely) for from this list is discussion of how to apply Complex Systems Theory to predicting something more interesting/relevant to the human tragicomedy being played out right. 

The second component seems to reflect your bias against collective agency which may merely be in opposition to my own emphasis *for* collective agency.   Would you say that you have more confidence or faith in enhancing individual agency than in seeking the synergies and emergent possibilities through enhancing collective agency? 

< As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas involved?  Do you see my "caution" as wrong headed, or just irrelevant (in practice)? >

I just see your caution as irrelevant.   People of means that see sufficient promise will go wherever they need to do perform the procedures that interest them, whether it is for engineering their kids to be smart and attractive or for high-risk disease intervention or enhancement for themselves.   There’s even an established market and television programs about it – all the people that go to plastic surgeons!   Sooner or later word will get out about the successes and failures.

My Molecular Biologist daughter had a business plan for "designer bacteriaphages" which she estimated would take about 2 weeks to turnaround....  a wealthy (or important?) enough person could have these being developed continuously in the background for the more threatening components of their microbiota, to be prepared for the unlikely but still possible chance that one of them might turn out to be "one of the many" or "Yet another" of the constantly mutating/emerging antibiotic resistant bacteria.   As she described it, these designer bacteriophages would be slam-dunks for knocking down such an infection compared to any other alternative.  For Elon Musk, Warren Buffet, the Trumps, the Gates, etc.  it would be a "tiny" (by expense) prophylactic measure whose biggest downside would be that whomever was collecting, identifying, and sequencing samples would know a LOT about the makeup of the subjects entire biota... a new level of "invasion of privacy"?  She shelved it because such a business model did not align well with any of her personal values or goals *except* having the financial freedom to do other things with her life.

So yes, there are no end of "Gray Goo" and "Nuclear Holocaust" and "Singularity" Attractors on our fore horizon...  and my Pollyanna ideas about "refusing to participate" (like my daughter) only slows it down by precisely less than one iota, and given my competence in some things, deferring may actually speed it up if anything!

   And with one more term of Trump, there just will be no more `us’, and no meaningful concept of regulation for the greater good. 

Transhumanism is a quaint term that suggests a collective that is improving.   It won’t be the collective, it will be a select few. 

So I *think* I'm parsing (all) this as cynicism and pessimism, with maybe a dose of morbid fascination, not a moral judgement that in some way "it should be the select few"?  

I believe we may well be about to go through a choke-point in human diversity (genetic or cultural) as severe as the one which gives us all the common "Mitochondrial Eve"  ancestral great^n grandmother from (was it 50k years ago on the east coast of South Africa?) but with the difference that the likely survivors will the those who control the highest (or most relevant of the fairly high) tech around genetic manipulation on top of control of more mundane resources (energy, exotic metals, technology, etc.)

Will this coincide with some kind of Kurzweilian/Broderick/Vinge Singularity?   I don't know.  

I'll bet THIS message from the future drives you totally bonkers:

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/17/green-new-deal-short-film-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/

- Steve

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Steve writes:

< Would you say that you have more confidence or faith in enhancing individual agency than in seeking the synergies and emergent possibilities through enhancing collective agency?  >

Something close to no confidence for the latter.   I think empowered cohesive minority groups will be needed to get things on a productive track.  While I certainly have zero confidence in the invisible hand of the markets, I can imagine some of the minority groups will be technology and services companies (as opposed to extraction companies).   I see technology as a force multiplier for these smaller groups, but it won’t matter unless the groups are prepared to shoot for coordinated social goals and take some risks along the way. 

< So I *think* I'm parsing (all) this as cynicism and pessimism, with maybe a dose of morbid fascination, not a moral judgement that in some way "it should be the select few"?  >

The ark can’t hold everyone.   Maybe it won’t have room for me either, but give me a hammer anyway.  

Marcus

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

< We can turn up the brightness and narrow the focus to maximize flux, but for many problems, that is not unlike hitting our high beams in a snowstorm or fogbank.   One of the things I hope (mostly in vain, but not entirely) for from this list is discussion of how to apply Complex Systems Theory to predicting something more interesting/relevant to the human tragicomedy being played out right.  >

Switch to synthetic aperture radar in fog.  ☺

https://semiengineering.com/here-comes-high-res-car-radar/

 

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[Steve Smith]

< We can turn up the brightness and narrow the focus to maximize flux, but for many problems, that is not unlike hitting our high beams in a snowstorm or fogbank.   One of the things I hope (mostly in vain, but not entirely) for from this list is discussion of how to apply Complex Systems Theory to predicting something more interesting/relevant to the human tragicomedy being played out right.  >

Switch to synthetic aperture radar in fog.  ☺

https://semiengineering.com/here-comes-high-res-car-radar/

Good one.  I *was* going to invoke the work Takeo Kenade (CMU) presented here a year or so ago, based on his (Lucas-Kenade) Optical Flow algorithms to detect/predict the pattern of rain/snow a fraction of a second later such that the headlights (imaging projectors) can mask the beam, minimizing the egregious illumination of rain/snow/sleet.    As a metaphor, I don't know if it helps in this discussion, but it was a good example of fairly straightforward but highly motivated adaptation of  existing technology.

Your synthetic aperture imaging via arrays (formal, ad hoc, phased, radio, light, sound... ) probably provide a better metaphor.   This is one of the reasons I'm very interested in other people's perspectives on many topics...  if done well (which I can't claim I do) it seems that such ubiquitous parallax can yield some of the same things synthetic apertures can...  like post-hoc focus and depth extraction.  

Unfortunately both of these are merely sophisticated engineering mathematics, probably closer to what Asimov's Psychohistory gestured at.

Projects like our own Merle Lefkoff's Center for Emergent Diplomacy and ASU's Global Biosocial Complexity Initiative show promise... I suppose I should quit blathering on here and do a more diligent literature search...   There are initiatives at SFI that are somewhat relevant that I don't (bother to?) follow. 

Mumble,

 - Steve

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Going back to the original thread you split (subject line), I would probably have more concern for parallax if I thought there were different perspectives and some kind of nuance that was at risk.    Metaphorically speaking, we aren’t driving in the fog or snow, we are driving on a cool, dry, summer evening, but with the lights off, well over the legal blood alcohol limit, at about 130 mph.    Open the door and jump out while there is still time.    Next time we’ll send the Tesla on autopilot and it can escort them to the authorities for processing. 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 7:13 PM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trans/Post Homo Erectus/Sapiens/Faber/Hiveus

 

< We can turn up the brightness and narrow the focus to maximize flux, but for many problems, that is not unlike hitting our high beams in a snowstorm or fogbank.   One of the things I hope (mostly in vain, but not entirely) for from this list is discussion of how to apply Complex Systems Theory to predicting something more interesting/relevant to the human tragicomedy being played out right.  >

Switch to synthetic aperture radar in fog.  ☺

https://semiengineering.com/here-comes-high-res-car-radar/

Good one.  I *was* going to invoke the work Takeo Kenade (CMU) presented here a year or so ago, based on his (Lucas-Kenade) Optical Flow algorithms to detect/predict the pattern of rain/snow a fraction of a second later such that the headlights (imaging projectors) can mask the beam, minimizing the egregious illumination of rain/snow/sleet.    As a metaphor, I don't know if it helps in this discussion, but it was a good example of fairly straightforward but highly motivated adaptation of  existing technology.

Your synthetic aperture imaging via arrays (formal, ad hoc, phased, radio, light, sound... ) probably provide a better metaphor.   This is one of the reasons I'm very interested in other people's perspectives on many topics...  if done well (which I can't claim I do) it seems that such ubiquitous parallax can yield some of the same things synthetic apertures can...  like post-hoc focus and depth extraction.  

Unfortunately both of these are merely sophisticated engineering mathematics, probably closer to what Asimov's Psychohistory gestured at.

Projects like our own Merle Lefkoff's Center for Emergent Diplomacy and ASU's Global Biosocial Complexity Initiative show promise... I suppose I should quit blathering on here and do a more diligent literature search...   There are initiatives at SFI that are somewhat relevant that I don't (bother to?) follow. 

Mumble,

 - Steve

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[Steve Smith]

On 4/18/19 8:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Going back to the original thread you split (subject line), I would probably have more concern for parallax if I thought there were different perspectives and some kind of nuance that was at risk.    Metaphorically speaking, we aren’t driving in the fog or snow, we are driving on a cool, dry, summer evening, but with the lights off, well over the legal blood alcohol limit, at about 130 mph.    Open the door and jump out while there is still time.    Next time we’ll send the Tesla on autopilot and it can escort them to the authorities for processing. 

 

The most apt part of this metaphorical image might be the "jumping out", but with an after-the-fact realization that "suicide doors" are back in fashion:

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/a25602335/2019-lincoln-continental-suicide-doors/

I wouldn't say the thread was "split" so much as spun together from multiple, roughly colinear fibers of differing qualities.  I am right now brushing out our Akita, saving this Spring Shed fur to (hand) spin into yarn, but have to mix in a modest portion of longer (sheep) fibers since Akita fur, as lush as it is, doesn't quite lock in the way the traditional (sheep, goat, yak, camelid) sources do.

Homo WTF lives on the other side of an "event horizon" implied by the reach of our foresight...   your H. WTF may be a small select few of smart of lucky or wealthy individuals who might put personal survival and thrival before that of a larger group, successfully leveraging uber-technology to facilitate that.  Whether a Space Ark or a Terrestial Bobble, I'm not clear.   I'm part of one of (many?)  sub"threads" of humanity which is striving to to transcend our "blood in tooth and claw" origins *without* losing personal identity and agency such as implied by H. Hiveus.   Developing good foresight (possibly via technology (nod to the headlight metaphor)) seems key to this.   On the other hand, it feels as if what is needed is a secular form "Return to Grace"  which might require no more (total understatement) than recalibrating our humility/hubris ratio.

The bone I'm gnawing on (or stuck in my craw?) might be this humility/hubris ratio...

- Steve

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Steve writes:

< On the other hand, it feels as if what is needed is a secular form "Return to Grace"  which might require no more (total understatement) than recalibrating our humility/hubris ratio. >

Sure, I’m willing to recalibrate after power changes hands, or I find myself as member of generation 0 of Homo WTF on the other side of the event horizon.   Either works for me.   I don’t see the problem as reckless use of technology.   I’m not a luddite.   We could switch to renewable energy and work harder to make a scalable cultured meat industry with some effort.  This means more technology, not less.  That we don’t is because there are legacy industries that have well-funded lobbyists that employ a bunch of people.   And as I mentioned before, many people weirdly think the habits of their group have some meaning and need to endure.    So, I’m torn between efforts to increase longevity and investments in the young.   On one hand, I think there is still way, way too much emphasis on having children.   On the other, I see so many adults who seem unable to take new opportunities and adapt to new circumstances.   The thought of keeping them alive for decades more seems counterproductive.  

Marcus

 

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[Steve Smith]

Dave -

Replying mostly to Steve's post about psychedelics /CAW,

Thanks for helping spin this fibre into the thread...

I was a member of the Minneapolis Nest of CAW

It is good to have a first-hand report.

I vaguely remember that _Smith_ might have used the term "Nest" which for some reason invoke(d/s) the image in me of a "Nest" of Naked Mole Rats or maybe Snakes more than the kind of comfy "Nest"  I associate with the seasonal needs of brooding and fledging amongst birds.   I was young, the image was new and "extreme" to my inexperienced apprehension, and I think it scared my "fledgling ego" a bit too much to imagine being subsumed, even for a presumed "higher purpose".

when I was an undergraduate student 68-72 and I must confess it was mostly about the sex, closely followed by struggles to re-define gender/social relationships/roles when everyone acknowledged,

The "Summer of Love" was stretched into 4 then?  I sometimes regret/resent not having been a few years older so as to have hit that era as a young adult rather than a "tween".   I felt the struggle to redefine gender/social relationships/roles a bit more confrontational.   I worked my way through that milieu in as positive of a way as I could, but there was more than a little friction and snagging going on around me.

"Thou Art God." The "spiritual" never went much beyond pop, new age, psychology Gaia adoration. And psychedelics were not part of the equation.

When I get back home to the US, I should look up my notes and writings from that time re: gender/social redefinition - it might be relevant but dated to a subset of issues that could arise from trans-humanism. How will we all interact when all of will acknowledge, "Thou Art Uploaded."

I look forward to some fresh chewing of that cud from you.  

I have extensive experience with all of the psychedlics (psylocibin, lsd, peyote, mescaline, ariocarpus, etc.). Except for my first experience, mushrooms as I remember, none of the use was 'recreational'. All of the use was entwined with my pursuit of "mystical" insights via meditation, yoga, etc. Eventually all of that was subsumed under the research umbrella of my Ph.D. work in cognitive anthropology.

It is a bit divergent (not that that ever slows me down) but I am not sure I could distinguish my own life-experiences between "recreational" and "pursuit of the mystical"?   I'm not sure what "play" is if not that for me.  And ultimately "play" is "mock work" or perhaps vice-versa?

I look forward to more of your perspective in this area.  In particular, to your book in the works:

Culture, Cognition, and Connectionism:

Towards an Hermeneutic Anthropology of Mind

do you have any shorter works on the topic?  An essay or article?

For me, at a deeply personal level, a benefit of all this is what feels like an insight into the myriad, totally artificial, totally arbitrary facades that have been constructed around issues of epistemology.

Similarly, I'd be interested in more perspective on those insights.  It isn't clear to me that while myriad that they are totally artificial and arbitrary... but can agree that what passes for significant or complete understanding in this area might be only a glimpse, and then only from a particular perspective.  

Corollary to that is the mandated privilege accorded to rational, scientific, mathematical, computational "thinking" and "knowing" even when it is evident that such thinking resolves only the simplest of questions.

I do find more and more that there are significant limits to a strict pragmatist or logical positivist approach to perceiving the universe as it is (if that goal is even a sensible one?).   I'm not fond of the more popular approaches coming from the "Woo" or "Newage" approach either, so perhaps by letting my confidence in the former lag, without anything else to stand on, I'm risking being left adrift.   Or perhaps that state has it's own charms?

As our friend was always saying at FRIAM, "ah, but it is more complicated than that."

Molly, I have found, is most useful when it forces us to confront the artificial boundaries and limitations that all of us adopt vis-a-vis interpersonal interaction. In the CAW nest, a culture of exploration/questioning/permissiveness existed that allowed the struggles to redefine mentioned in the first paragraph. Absent such a culture, Molly, in a guided context can allow similar questioning.

I'm not experienced in the same way you are, but I feel I have felt/seen/tasted said artificial boundaries and limitations.  

When I read Stephenson's _Diamond Age_, "the Drummers" felt a bit too much like what I remember expecting the CAW "Nests" evolving into.  I fear that some of my apprehension of these alternatives might be colored (in a bad way) by the anti-drug anti-hippy propoganda of my youth (e.g. _Reefer Madness_, _Maybe I'll Come Home in the Spring_).

I hope Amsterdam in the Spring is suiting you well!

- Steve

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