Divided America

[Jochen Fromm-5]

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

-Jochen 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Frank Wimberly-2]

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

-Jochen 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

"What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism?"

Short of states flipping from recounts, electoral college defectors, or impeachment, the best case is that he makes the low-skill, low-information voter _feel_ great again until the remaining baby boomers retire.   Meanwhile, the tech sector continues to grow and attract people from every culture.  Together those two things ought to make Trump-like electoral voting blocs collapse all things being equal.   

Worst case is that more people freak-out and decide that being fascist is in their interest, that living in a post-truth world is easier for them, and (ugh) they keep banging-out babies taught to think the same way.    I fear the trend could continue across Europe.  I can see why Putin would like that.  

I'm hopeful when I turn on CNN off hours and see their UK correspondents taking a shift.   I'm hopeful when I see big U.S. companies like Microsoft or Google hiring across the globe for all kinds of work.   Perhaps that will give pause to the new administration.  If not, at least we have a chance of getting out!

I was in San Francisco for the holidays and I was surprised how many people aren't just laughing when then they talk about California leaving the union.   There really is a palpable sense of disgust and alienation.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 5:28:18 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

-Jochen 

Sent from my Tricorder.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Nick Thompson]

Dear Jochen,

 

Thanks for writing.   Frank is correct, I think, about the general tenor of FRIAM.  I don’t know about the diaspora, but at the meeting of the “Mother Church” I thought we had at least one trumper, but it turned out his allegiance was only per argumentum.

 

I am pretty frightened.  I think if we all hunker down and if Putin and Trump don’t obliterate us all in a lover’s spat, we can survive the next four years without too much damage.  But that’s a big “if”!  What I fear most is that “unruly elements” will take to violence, and in the ensuing chaos, the democracy will fall to authoritarianism.  I also fear that nations abroad will not be able to see the long arc of history here and will abandon us to our fate, too soon.  So, I guess I am asking that those of you in the friam diaspora give us what moral support you can and that we all learn to resist in ways that are effective but will not cause the pendulum to begin swinging even more wildly. 

 

Thanks again for writing.

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone [phone]

 

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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[Owen Densmore]

From the Santa Fe newspaper, support for Frank:

New Mexico goes its own way

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/local_columns/roundhouse-roundup-new-mexico-goes-its-own-way/article_9cdebaed-520c-525a-9cb6-de6f41742291.html

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

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[Prof David West]

Nick,

The mother church does have one "trumper" — in the sense that I believe he is a potential antidote for a whole series of toxic trends in the body politic and a rude (but decidedly earned) "f... you" directed towards a specific cultural elite, epitomized by Mrs. Clinton, her Democratic Party and its fellow travelers, the leadership of the Republican Party (especially those wrapped in the mantle of fundamentalist religion), and the current government as a body (there are obviously individual members of all branches of the government who would be exempt from this blanket contempt).

If I did not vote for Trump it was only because I will never vote for either Democrat or Republican; to me it would be an act of collusion.

The schadenfreude you observe comes from two sources: first a kind of gloating, I have consistently said, since January, that Trump would win and told everyone exactly why; second, I find the hysteria (and hypocrisy) of the 'losers' extremely amusing.

Clearly there are many who are frightened at the prospect of a Trump administration. I sympathize, but would suggest that those fears arise from a woefully incomplete understanding of the forces — the people who comprise the core and majority of his support and their values — that made Trump possible. Further, perhaps it would be useful to determine the degree to which fear of "unruly elements" is a function of ethnocentrism — believing that your 'culture' is the only one capable of intelligent, civic and civil behavior.

America is not "divided" it is fractured. In no small part this is a direct result of the Democratic strategy for the last 2-3 decades of fostering "identity politics" coupled with the hijacking of the "right" by the "religious." What is to be feared, if anything, are the inevitable consequences that will come from ossification of "identities" and the elimination of communication across and among them.

I might suggest that the current politi-cultural climate provides the perfect experimental ground to explore the possibilities of the Peircian / pragmatic philosophy of "consensus building via dialog" I have heard espoused at FRIAM.

davew

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear Jochen,

 

Thanks for writing.   Frank is correct, I think, about the general tenor of FRIAM.  I don’t know about the diaspora, but at the meeting of the “Mother Church” I thought we had at least one trumper, but it turned out his allegiance was only per argumentum.

 

I am pretty frightened.  I think if we all hunker down and if Putin and Trump don’t obliterate us all in a lover’s spat, we can survive the next four years without too much damage.  But that’s a big “if”!  What I fear most is that “unruly elements” will take to violence, and in the ensuing chaos, the democracy will fall to authoritarianism.  I also fear that nations abroad will not be able to see the long arc of history here and will abandon us to our fate, too soon.  So, I guess I am asking that those of you in the friam diaspora give us what moral support you can and that we all learn to resist in ways that are effective but will not cause the pendulum to begin swinging even more wildly. 

 

Thanks again for writing.

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone [phone]

 

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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[Gary Schiltz-4]

Dave, I find it at least mildly encouraging to hear people who are obviously quite intelligent, but have not jumped to the conclusion that the USA is going to crap because of the president that it elected.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

The mother church does have one "trumper" — in the sense that I believe he is a potential antidote for a whole series of toxic trends in the body politic and a rude (but decidedly earned) "f... you" directed towards a specific cultural elite, epitomized by Mrs. Clinton, her Democratic Party and its fellow travelers, the leadership of the Republican Party (especially those wrapped in the mantle of fundamentalist religion), and the current government as a body (there are obviously individual members of all branches of the government who would be exempt from this blanket contempt).

If I did not vote for Trump it was only because I will never vote for either Democrat or Republican; to me it would be an act of collusion.

The schadenfreude you observe comes from two sources: first a kind of gloating, I have consistently said, since January, that Trump would win and told everyone exactly why; second, I find the hysteria (and hypocrisy) of the 'losers' extremely amusing.

Clearly there are many who are frightened at the prospect of a Trump administration. I sympathize, but would suggest that those fears arise from a woefully incomplete understanding of the forces — the people who comprise the core and majority of his support and their values — that made Trump possible. Further, perhaps it would be useful to determine the degree to which fear of "unruly elements" is a function of ethnocentrism — believing that your 'culture' is the only one capable of intelligent, civic and civil behavior.

America is not "divided" it is fractured. In no small part this is a direct result of the Democratic strategy for the last 2-3 decades of fostering "identity politics" coupled with the hijacking of the "right" by the "religious." What is to be feared, if anything, are the inevitable consequences that will come from ossification of "identities" and the elimination of communication across and among them.

I might suggest that the current politi-cultural climate provides the perfect experimental ground to explore the possibilities of the Peircian / pragmatic philosophy of "consensus building via dialog" I have heard espoused at FRIAM.

davew

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear Jochen,

 

Thanks for writing.   Frank is correct, I think, about the general tenor of FRIAM.  I don’t know about the diaspora, but at the meeting of the “Mother Church” I thought we had at least one trumper, but it turned out his allegiance was only per argumentum.

 

I am pretty frightened.  I think if we all hunker down and if Putin and Trump don’t obliterate us all in a lover’s spat, we can survive the next four years without too much damage.  But that’s a big “if”!  What I fear most is that “unruly elements” will take to violence, and in the ensuing chaos, the democracy will fall to authoritarianism.  I also fear that nations abroad will not be able to see the long arc of history here and will abandon us to our fate, too soon.  So, I guess I am asking that those of you in the friam diaspora give us what moral support you can and that we all learn to resist in ways that are effective but will not cause the pendulum to begin swinging even more wildly. 

 

Thanks again for writing.

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone [phone]

 

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

David writes:

"Clearly there are many who are frightened at the prospect of a Trump administration. I sympathize, but would suggest that those fears arise from a woefully incomplete understanding of the forces — the people who comprise the core and majority of his support and their values — that made Trump possible."

Was something bigger than the Trump voters themselves at stake?  No.  

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-was-stronger-where-the-economy-is-weaker/

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Prof David West <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 5:00:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Nick,

The mother church does have one "trumper" — in the sense that I believe he is a potential antidote for a whole series of toxic trends in the body politic and a rude (but decidedly earned) "f... you" directed towards a specific cultural elite, epitomized by Mrs. Clinton, her Democratic Party and its fellow travelers, the leadership of the Republican Party (especially those wrapped in the mantle of fundamentalist religion), and the current government as a body (there are obviously individual members of all branches of the government who would be exempt from this blanket contempt).

If I did not vote for Trump it was only because I will never vote for either Democrat or Republican; to me it would be an act of collusion.

The schadenfreude you observe comes from two sources: first a kind of gloating, I have consistently said, since January, that Trump would win and told everyone exactly why; second, I find the hysteria (and hypocrisy) of the 'losers' extremely amusing.

Clearly there are many who are frightened at the prospect of a Trump administration. I sympathize, but would suggest that those fears arise from a woefully incomplete understanding of the forces — the people who comprise the core and majority of his support and their values — that made Trump possible. Further, perhaps it would be useful to determine the degree to which fear of "unruly elements" is a function of ethnocentrism — believing that your 'culture' is the only one capable of intelligent, civic and civil behavior.

America is not "divided" it is fractured. In no small part this is a direct result of the Democratic strategy for the last 2-3 decades of fostering "identity politics" coupled with the hijacking of the "right" by the "religious." What is to be feared, if anything, are the inevitable consequences that will come from ossification of "identities" and the elimination of communication across and among them.

I might suggest that the current politi-cultural climate provides the perfect experimental ground to explore the possibilities of the Peircian / pragmatic philosophy of "consensus building via dialog" I have heard espoused at FRIAM.

davew

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear Jochen,

 

Thanks for writing.   Frank is correct, I think, about the general tenor of FRIAM.  I don’t know about the diaspora, but at the meeting of the “Mother Church” I thought we had at least one trumper, but it turned out his allegiance was only per argumentum.

 

I am pretty frightened.  I think if we all hunker down and if Putin and Trump don’t obliterate us all in a lover’s spat, we can survive the next four years without too much damage.  But that’s a big “if”!  What I fear most is that “unruly elements” will take to violence, and in the ensuing chaos, the democracy will fall to authoritarianism.  I also fear that nations abroad will not be able to see the long arc of history here and will abandon us to our fate, too soon.  So, I guess I am asking that those of you in the friam diaspora give us what moral support you can and that we all learn to resist in ways that are effective but will not cause the pendulum to begin swinging even more wildly. 

 

Thanks again for writing.

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone [phone]

 

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

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[Steve Smith]

Frank -
 
I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here.   I don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about the election framed within the more theoretical context of social choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc.

I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away or underground?  I understand that this forum is not intended to be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are probably collectively much bluer than red.  I'm surprised we don't have a more vocal/overt Green tinge?  Maybe it is the age/academic dimensions of our collective feature space?

I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely different" (from the group and from one another).   I couldn't be characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract measures.   Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly anti-Trump/Republican.  I see that while I was composing this (over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own non-red/blue tribute.

I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting them the first time after the election with something like: "I am SO relieved that we didn't elect another hawkish, elite, bourgeoisie Clinton!";  followed by a nice pregnant pause and then: "The only thing worse than that was having that narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1%  Trump, elected as the hero of the proletariat class!"  and "he's YOUR boy, I'm going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world". 

I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective which in my opinion does not require big government (the old tax-n-spend liberal jab).   It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons, the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats (NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians.   The Greens are as close to a formal, organized group as I can see.   Bernie was at the very least "a good start" from my perspective.   I

 like DaveW's  suggestion of the possibility that this is a fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his favor.   Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide.   That is simply Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric.  So *I* do engage my "Trumpian" friends as best I can, though, the more informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what you ask for"!  *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a WTF moment, myself.

I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats.   Given the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to have Green as an option.  I don't know what color Gary is, some strange shade of purple?   I support his basic platform of personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business any more.   His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones.

As for Jochen's original question:  "Will Trump make America great again?"... geeze!  I hope not!  His vision of greatness is to be a "great bully" on the world stage.    Whether it is military or economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring us, I don't want that.   I can see a few silver linings in the grey cloud that he is:

1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are competent enough to achieve what they seek.  I think they will fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error.   But they will make big messes in the meantime.
2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that.   He has either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or so I hope).   I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems... Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their niche and absorb most of their momentum.  
   
3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better.   Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load, not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?).
   

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

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[Frank Wimberly-2]

Thanks, Steve.  I should have been explicit that I was thinking of the dozen or more people who sit around the table on Friday mornings when I said Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton.  I sometimes forget about the couple hundred(?) who read the list but may not even live in Santa Fe.  I apologize.

Frank

On Dec 4, 2016 9:31 PM, "Steven A Smith" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank -
 
I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here.   I don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about the election framed within the more theoretical context of social choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc.

I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away or underground?  I understand that this forum is not intended to be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are probably collectively much bluer than red.  I'm surprised we don't have a more vocal/overt Green tinge?  Maybe it is the age/academic dimensions of our collective feature space?

I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely different" (from the group and from one another).   I couldn't be characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract measures.   Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly anti-Trump/Republican.  I see that while I was composing this (over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own non-red/blue tribute.

I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting them the first time after the election with something like: "I am SO relieved that we didn't elect another hawkish, elite, bourgeoisie Clinton!";  followed by a nice pregnant pause and then: "The only thing worse than that was having that narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1%  Trump, elected as the hero of the proletariat class!"  and "he's YOUR boy, I'm going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world". 

I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective which in my opinion does not require big government (the old tax-n-spend liberal jab).   It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons, the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats (NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians.   The Greens are as close to a formal, organized group as I can see.   Bernie was at the very least "a good start" from my perspective.   I

 like DaveW's  suggestion of the possibility that this is a fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his favor.   Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide.   That is simply Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric.  So *I* do engage my "Trumpian" friends as best I can, though, the more informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what you ask for"!  *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a WTF moment, myself.

I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats.   Given the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to have Green as an option.  I don't know what color Gary is, some strange shade of purple?   I support his basic platform of personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business any more.   His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones.

As for Jochen's original question:  "Will Trump make America great again?"... geeze!  I hope not!  His vision of greatness is to be a "great bully" on the world stage.    Whether it is military or economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring us, I don't want that.   I can see a few silver linings in the grey cloud that he is:

1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are competent enough to achieve what they seek.  I think they will fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error.   But they will make big messes in the meantime.
2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that.   He has either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or so I hope).   I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems... Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their niche and absorb most of their momentum.  
   
3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better.   Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load, not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?).
   

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

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[Nick Thompson]

Well, I espouse it.  I might be the only one, but I am in. 

 

I admit to believing that bad things happen in chaos.  I admit that the historical record is kind of mixed on that point.  “Switzerland … peace…. The cuckoo clock, etc.”   But I am willing to talk to anybody who disagrees with me so long as they share my conviction that the effort to achieve a common understanding is fruitful.  That may be just pure ideology with me, but it’s my ideology and I am sticking with it. 

 

Let the discussions begin!

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 5:01 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Nick,

 

The mother church does have one "trumper" — in the sense that I believe he is a potential antidote for a whole series of toxic trends in the body politic and a rude (but decidedly earned) "f... you" directed towards a specific cultural elite, epitomized by Mrs. Clinton, her Democratic Party and its fellow travelers, the leadership of the Republican Party (especially those wrapped in the mantle of fundamentalist religion), and the current government as a body (there are obviously individual members of all branches of the government who would be exempt from this blanket contempt).

 

If I did not vote for Trump it was only because I will never vote for either Democrat or Republican; to me it would be an act of collusion.

 

The schadenfreude you observe comes from two sources: first a kind of gloating, I have consistently said, since January, that Trump would win and told everyone exactly why; second, I find the hysteria (and hypocrisy) of the 'losers' extremely amusing.

 

Clearly there are many who are frightened at the prospect of a Trump administration. I sympathize, but would suggest that those fears arise from a woefully incomplete understanding of the forces — the people who comprise the core and majority of his support and their values — that made Trump possible. Further, perhaps it would be useful to determine the degree to which fear of "unruly elements" is a function of ethnocentrism — believing that your 'culture' is the only one capable of intelligent, civic and civil behavior.

 

America is not "divided" it is fractured. In no small part this is a direct result of the Democratic strategy for the last 2-3 decades of fostering "identity politics" coupled with the hijacking of the "right" by the "religious." What is to be feared, if anything, are the inevitable consequences that will come from ossification of "identities" and the elimination of communication across and among them.

 

I might suggest that the current politi-cultural climate provides the perfect experimental ground to explore the possibilities of the Peircian / pragmatic philosophy of "consensus building via dialog" I have heard espoused at FRIAM.

 

davew

 

 

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear Jochen,

 

Thanks for writing.   Frank is correct, I think, about the general tenor of FRIAM.  I don’t know about the diaspora, but at the meeting of the “Mother Church” I thought we had at least one trumper, but it turned out his allegiance was only per argumentum.

 

I am pretty frightened.  I think if we all hunker down and if Putin and Trump don’t obliterate us all in a lover’s spat, we can survive the next four years without too much damage.  But that’s a big “if”!  What I fear most is that “unruly elements” will take to violence, and in the ensuing chaos, the democracy will fall to authoritarianism.  I also fear that nations abroad will not be able to see the long arc of history here and will abandon us to our fate, too soon.  So, I guess I am asking that those of you in the friam diaspora give us what moral support you can and that we all learn to resist in ways that are effective but will not cause the pendulum to begin swinging even more wildly. 

 

Thanks again for writing.

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone [phone]

 

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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[Carl Tollander]

I'm more on the "given that 'common understandings' itself can be fraught, given a that 'deep linguistic structure' may be problematic (ie not so fruitful as we may hope), let's figure out what can you do now" sort of frame of mind.

For example, Sabine might talk about issues with "emergent gravity", and that conversation is more interesting in that it has a different take on "emergence" than I had expected than that it is about current issues in physics.  Nonetheless, that conversation is more phenomenological, ie "what experiments can we do next" to resolve what we're talking about.

Carl

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, I espouse it.  I might be the only one, but I am in. 

 

I admit to believing that bad things happen in chaos.  I admit that the historical record is kind of mixed on that point.  “Switzerland … peace…. The cuckoo clock, etc.”   But I am willing to talk to anybody who disagrees with me so long as they share my conviction that the effort to achieve a common understanding is fruitful.  That may be just pure ideology with me, but it’s my ideology and I am sticking with it. 

 

Let the discussions begin!

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 5:01 PM
To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Nick,

 

The mother church does have one "trumper" — in the sense that I believe he is a potential antidote for a whole series of toxic trends in the body politic and a rude (but decidedly earned) "f... you" directed towards a specific cultural elite, epitomized by Mrs. Clinton, her Democratic Party and its fellow travelers, the leadership of the Republican Party (especially those wrapped in the mantle of fundamentalist religion), and the current government as a body (there are obviously individual members of all branches of the government who would be exempt from this blanket contempt).

 

If I did not vote for Trump it was only because I will never vote for either Democrat or Republican; to me it would be an act of collusion.

 

The schadenfreude you observe comes from two sources: first a kind of gloating, I have consistently said, since January, that Trump would win and told everyone exactly why; second, I find the hysteria (and hypocrisy) of the 'losers' extremely amusing.

 

Clearly there are many who are frightened at the prospect of a Trump administration. I sympathize, but would suggest that those fears arise from a woefully incomplete understanding of the forces — the people who comprise the core and majority of his support and their values — that made Trump possible. Further, perhaps it would be useful to determine the degree to which fear of "unruly elements" is a function of ethnocentrism — believing that your 'culture' is the only one capable of intelligent, civic and civil behavior.

 

America is not "divided" it is fractured. In no small part this is a direct result of the Democratic strategy for the last 2-3 decades of fostering "identity politics" coupled with the hijacking of the "right" by the "religious." What is to be feared, if anything, are the inevitable consequences that will come from ossification of "identities" and the elimination of communication across and among them.

 

I might suggest that the current politi-cultural climate provides the perfect experimental ground to explore the possibilities of the Peircian / pragmatic philosophy of "consensus building via dialog" I have heard espoused at FRIAM.

 

davew

 

 

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear Jochen,

 

Thanks for writing.   Frank is correct, I think, about the general tenor of FRIAM.  I don’t know about the diaspora, but at the meeting of the “Mother Church” I thought we had at least one trumper, but it turned out his allegiance was only per argumentum.

 

I am pretty frightened.  I think if we all hunker down and if Putin and Trump don’t obliterate us all in a lover’s spat, we can survive the next four years without too much damage.  But that’s a big “if”!  What I fear most is that “unruly elements” will take to violence, and in the ensuing chaos, the democracy will fall to authoritarianism.  I also fear that nations abroad will not be able to see the long arc of history here and will abandon us to our fate, too soon.  So, I guess I am asking that those of you in the friam diaspora give us what moral support you can and that we all learn to resist in ways that are effective but will not cause the pendulum to begin swinging even more wildly. 

 

Thanks again for writing.

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="[phone]" target="_blank">[phone]

 

On Dec 4, 2016 5:28 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

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[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

Nice to hear from Jochen seems like a long absence.

 

The  political weather seems to have become more turbulent.

The directional Vectors from Italy and Austria  only add to the mess.

 

Fear of the future appears to manifest itself in many oddities.

Canadians are only joking when they suggest we build a Wall to keep out the Yanks.

It would perk up the economy but would be easily misunderstood.

 

Maybe we should use old folk remedies such as Garlic Braids to keep Lucifer at bay.

 

The literal/serious dichotomy may also appear when symbols are confused with reality.

The “Great America” may be an awkward Symbol used to soothe babies frightened by thunder.

A crucifix  always soothes the bereaved at a funeral, the dead remain dead and the living have to

repair the damage. Symbols  abound in troubled times.

 

What is a  FRIAM Diaspora Community,  hmmm,,,

My wager is that Trump will be impeached  within 24 months.

Vladimyr

vib

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: December-04-16 6:28 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Nick Thompson]

Sorry, Vladimyr,

 

My Bad.  “the mother church” and “the diaspora” is a running gag of mine that nobody gets and I should stop it.

 

I mean by “mother church” the group of people who meet here in Santa Fe each Friday and by “the diaspora” those of you on the list who are too far away to show up.  I mean to imply by the metaphor that all of you have the Right of Return. 

 

But since I really don’t know what any of those terms mean, AND I am mixing up metaphors, perhaps it’s time for Old Nick to get another joke. 

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 12:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Nice to hear from Jochen seems like a long absence.

 

The  political weather seems to have become more turbulent.

The directional Vectors from Italy and Austria  only add to the mess.

 

Fear of the future appears to manifest itself in many oddities.

Canadians are only joking when they suggest we build a Wall to keep out the Yanks.

It would perk up the economy but would be easily misunderstood.

 

Maybe we should use old folk remedies such as Garlic Braids to keep Lucifer at bay.

 

The literal/serious dichotomy may also appear when symbols are confused with reality.

The “Great America” may be an awkward Symbol used to soothe babies frightened by thunder.

A crucifix  always soothes the bereaved at a funeral, the dead remain dead and the living have to

repair the damage. Symbols  abound in troubled times.

 

What is a  FRIAM Diaspora Community,  hmmm,,,

My wager is that Trump will be impeached  within 24 months.

Vladimyr

vib

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: December-04-16 6:28 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Owen Densmore]

​Italy seems to be regressing as well, although this was not an EU vote, but pundits felt its defeat would indicate an anti-EU sentiment.

Anyone have an explanation of the ramifications of the defeat?

   -- Owen

ROME — Italy plunged into political and economic uncertainty early Monday as Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said he would resign after voters decisively rejected constitutional changes, a step certain to reverberate across a European Union already buffeted by anti-establishment anger.

“The ‘no’ won in an incredibly clear way,” Mr. Renzi said from the Chigi Palace. Holding back tears as he spoke in front of Italian and European Union flags, the usually brash and confident 41-year-old said, “I assume all the responsibility of the defeat,” adding that “my experience of government ends here.” He said he would go later on Monday to the country’s president, Sergio Mattarella, and “tender my resignation.”

Mr. Renzi’s defeat, and the instability that his resignation is likely to cause, raised the prospect of punishment in the markets, but also a caretaker government staffed with technocrats appointed by the Italian president.

Another possibility is the calling of early elections in 2017, though that, too, was unclear because Italy’s new electoral law is itself under review by Italy’s constitutional court. The news sent the euro down sharply in Asian trading.

Continue reading the main story

​

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

-Jochen 

Sent from my Tricorder.

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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[Owen Densmore]

BTW: This was the NYTimes explanation on why this is of the same type as brexit:

Ostensibly the vote was about arcane changes to Italy’s Constitution that would have streamlined government.

But opposition to the proposals came from the same anti-establishment sentiment — spiked with skepticism of globalization, open borders and the feasibility of an ever-closer European Union — that has transformed the politics of a growing list of European countries.

Such movements have already smashed the traditional political structures in Greece and Spain, and forces skeptical of the European Union led Britain to vote in June to leave the union.

In Germany, Chancellor Angela Merkel, once untouchable, now seems vulnerable in next year’s elections. And far-right parties are also seeking power in France.

The article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/04/world/europe/italy-matteo-renzi-referendum.html

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

​Italy seems to be regressing as well, although this was not an EU vote, but pundits felt its defeat would indicate an anti-EU sentiment.

Anyone have an explanation of the ramifications of the defeat?

   -- Owen

ROME — Italy plunged into political and economic uncertainty early Monday as Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said he would resign after voters decisively rejected constitutional changes, a step certain to reverberate across a European Union already buffeted by anti-establishment anger.

“The ‘no’ won in an incredibly clear way,” Mr. Renzi said from the Chigi Palace. Holding back tears as he spoke in front of Italian and European Union flags, the usually brash and confident 41-year-old said, “I assume all the responsibility of the defeat,” adding that “my experience of government ends here.” He said he would go later on Monday to the country’s president, Sergio Mattarella, and “tender my resignation.”

Mr. Renzi’s defeat, and the instability that his resignation is likely to cause, raised the prospect of punishment in the markets, but also a caretaker government staffed with technocrats appointed by the Italian president.

Another possibility is the calling of early elections in 2017, though that, too, was unclear because Italy’s new electoral law is itself under review by Italy’s constitutional court. The news sent the euro down sharply in Asian trading.

Continue reading the main story

​

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

-Jochen 

Sent from my Tricorder.

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Steve Smith]

Frank -

I was not admonishing you, but DO admit that I assumed you were speaking to the "congregation at large" not merely the attendees at "the Mother Church"...   As you know I DO occasionally attend High Mass at the Fri(day)AM with ritual consumption of the blood of Complexity Yak (aka Coffee)... but not often nor in a while.

That said, I am curious if you believe that the physical attendees at FriAM services are in fact pro-Clinton or merely anti-Trump or anti-Republican?   Was Bernie - before - Clinton  ever on the table for the FriAM congregation?   Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even McMullen and his ???s ?   Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal?

Nick and DaveW -

I think I believe in "Consensus building through dialog" though perhaps do want to emphasize "building" with an understanding that it is a task that has no completion date.

I think (despite my implications of being confrontational with pro-Trumpers) that there is plenty of fertile ground left after busting their chops to then discuss what we all have in common, what we all seek, what the commons looks like and how to cultivate, repair, and preserve it for the next 7 generations.  

- Steve

On 12/4/16 9:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Thanks, Steve.  I should have been explicit that I was thinking of the dozen or more people who sit around the table on Friday mornings when I said Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton.  I sometimes forget about the couple hundred(?) who read the list but may not even live in Santa Fe.  I apologize.

Frank

On Dec 4, 2016 9:31 PM, "Steven A Smith" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank -
 
I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here.   I don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about the election framed within the more theoretical context of social choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc.

I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away or underground?  I understand that this forum is not intended to be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are probably collectively much bluer than red.  I'm surprised we don't have a more vocal/overt Green tinge?  Maybe it is the age/academic dimensions of our collective feature space?

I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely different" (from the group and from one another).   I couldn't be characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract measures.   Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly anti-Trump/Republican.  I see that while I was composing this (over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own non-red/blue tribute.

I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting them the first time after the election with something like: "I am SO relieved that we didn't elect another hawkish, elite, bourgeoisie Clinton!";  followed by a nice pregnant pause and then: "The only thing worse than that was having that narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1%  Trump, elected as the hero of the proletariat class!"  and "he's YOUR boy, I'm going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world". 

I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective which in my opinion does not require big government (the old tax-n-spend liberal jab).   It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons, the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats (NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians.   The Greens are as close to a formal, organized group as I can see.   Bernie was at the very least "a good start" from my perspective.   I

 like DaveW's  suggestion of the possibility that this is a fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his favor.   Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide.   That is simply Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric.  So *I* do engage my "Trumpian" friends as best I can, though, the more informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what you ask for"!  *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a WTF moment, myself.

I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats.   Given the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to have Green as an option.  I don't know what color Gary is, some strange shade of purple?   I support his basic platform of personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business any more.   His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones.

As for Jochen's original question:  "Will Trump make America great again?"... geeze!  I hope not!  His vision of greatness is to be a "great bully" on the world stage.    Whether it is military or economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring us, I don't want that.   I can see a few silver linings in the grey cloud that he is:

1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are competent enough to achieve what they seek.  I think they will fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error.   But they will make big messes in the meantime.
2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that.   He has either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or so I hope).   I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems... Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their niche and absorb most of their momentum.  
   
3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better.   Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load, not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?).
   

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Frank Wimberly-2]

Steve,

I don't know the answers to your questions.  I can say that an anti-Trump theme has been prominent.  I don't think there was much optimism for Sanders's chances nor for those of the 3rd party candidates.  There was a moment when one attendee was lamenting the poor choices available.  I said that I actually liked Clinton.  He practically gagged.

Frank

On Dec 5, 2016 8:29 PM, "Steven A Smith" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank -

I was not admonishing you, but DO admit that I assumed you were speaking to the "congregation at large" not merely the attendees at "the Mother Church"...   As you know I DO occasionally attend High Mass at the Fri(day)AM with ritual consumption of the blood of Complexity Yak (aka Coffee)... but not often nor in a while.

That said, I am curious if you believe that the physical attendees at FriAM services are in fact pro-Clinton or merely anti-Trump or anti-Republican?   Was Bernie - before - Clinton  ever on the table for the FriAM congregation?   Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even McMullen and his ???s ?   Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal?

Nick and DaveW -

I think I believe in "Consensus building through dialog" though perhaps do want to emphasize "building" with an understanding that it is a task that has no completion date.

I think (despite my implications of being confrontational with pro-Trumpers) that there is plenty of fertile ground left after busting their chops to then discuss what we all have in common, what we all seek, what the commons looks like and how to cultivate, repair, and preserve it for the next 7 generations.  

- Steve

On 12/4/16 9:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Thanks, Steve.  I should have been explicit that I was thinking of the dozen or more people who sit around the table on Friday mornings when I said Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton.  I sometimes forget about the couple hundred(?) who read the list but may not even live in Santa Fe.  I apologize.

Frank

On Dec 4, 2016 9:31 PM, "Steven A Smith" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank -
 
I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here.   I don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about the election framed within the more theoretical context of social choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc.

I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away or underground?  I understand that this forum is not intended to be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are probably collectively much bluer than red.  I'm surprised we don't have a more vocal/overt Green tinge?  Maybe it is the age/academic dimensions of our collective feature space?

I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely different" (from the group and from one another).   I couldn't be characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract measures.   Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly anti-Trump/Republican.  I see that while I was composing this (over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own non-red/blue tribute.

I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting them the first time after the election with something like: "I am SO relieved that we didn't elect another hawkish, elite, bourgeoisie Clinton!";  followed by a nice pregnant pause and then: "The only thing worse than that was having that narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1%  Trump, elected as the hero of the proletariat class!"  and "he's YOUR boy, I'm going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world". 

I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective which in my opinion does not require big government (the old tax-n-spend liberal jab).   It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons, the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats (NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians.   The Greens are as close to a formal, organized group as I can see.   Bernie was at the very least "a good start" from my perspective.   I

 like DaveW's  suggestion of the possibility that this is a fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his favor.   Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide.   That is simply Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric.  So *I* do engage my "Trumpian" friends as best I can, though, the more informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what you ask for"!  *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a WTF moment, myself.

I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats.   Given the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to have Green as an option.  I don't know what color Gary is, some strange shade of purple?   I support his basic platform of personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business any more.   His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones.

As for Jochen's original question:  "Will Trump make America great again?"... geeze!  I hope not!  His vision of greatness is to be a "great bully" on the world stage.    Whether it is military or economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring us, I don't want that.   I can see a few silver linings in the grey cloud that he is:

1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are competent enough to achieve what they seek.  I think they will fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error.   But they will make big messes in the meantime.
2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that.   He has either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or so I hope).   I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems... Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their niche and absorb most of their momentum.  
   
3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better.   Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load, not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?).
   

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

Nick

Take a deep Breath and slowly listen to your Prophetic words.

 

Your metaphor has enormous potential and may seem  to some overly generous .

Yet it may be what saves us from ourselves. Accepting the far flung into the commonality  is exactly how the Greeks

defied more brutal regimes. According to Herodotus, if you could Run with a Shield and Spear and recite a few words in Greek so you became Greek.

The standards were much relaxed if you could bring your wet-nurse.

They accepted even the proverbial Idiots.

 

Now there are so many Greeks outside of Greece that they actually outnumber residents.

 

These Diaspora communities seem to thrive in western nations and enliven local cuisine at the very least.

But seriously a Diaspora that includes other diasporas ; it sounds a lot like our own Humanity.

Perhaps Trump accidentally did something useful.

Even Fools can be blessed with the occasional words of wisdom.

 

Perhaps our little cultural groups are oh, so, pleasant strait jackets or prison cells.

 

I have forgotten who to thank for this forum, so anyway they deserve a cheer.

A divided America may lead to a United World is this a contradiction or Paradox

 

Vladimyr

vib

 

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: December-05-16 11:34 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Sorry, Vladimyr,

 

My Bad.  “the mother church” and “the diaspora” is a running gag of mine that nobody gets and I should stop it.

 

I mean by “mother church” the group of people who meet here in Santa Fe each Friday and by “the diaspora” those of you on the list who are too far away to show up.  I mean to imply by the metaphor that all of you have the Right of Return. 

 

But since I really don’t know what any of those terms mean, AND I am mixing up metaphors, perhaps it’s time for Old Nick to get another joke. 

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 12:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Nice to hear from Jochen seems like a long absence.

 

The  political weather seems to have become more turbulent.

The directional Vectors from Italy and Austria  only add to the mess.

 

Fear of the future appears to manifest itself in many oddities.

Canadians are only joking when they suggest we build a Wall to keep out the Yanks.

It would perk up the economy but would be easily misunderstood.

 

Maybe we should use old folk remedies such as Garlic Braids to keep Lucifer at bay.

 

The literal/serious dichotomy may also appear when symbols are confused with reality.

The “Great America” may be an awkward Symbol used to soothe babies frightened by thunder.

A crucifix  always soothes the bereaved at a funeral, the dead remain dead and the living have to

repair the damage. Symbols  abound in troubled times.

 

What is a  FRIAM Diaspora Community,  hmmm,,,

My wager is that Trump will be impeached  within 24 months.

Vladimyr

vib

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: December-04-16 6:28 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

In Europe people are shocked about the results of the American presidential election. What is your opinion in NM, will the new president Trump make America great again or will he lead America into some form of cronyism, nepotism, fascism or even totalitarianism? American itself seems to be deeply divided 

https://public.tableau.com/views/USvsTHEM/USvs_THEM?:showVizHome=no

 

His supporters take him seriously but not literally, while his opponents take him literally bit not seriously. I guess the FRIAM group is divided too between those who take Trump seriously and hope he will make their situation better, and those who take him literally and hope he will fail. Which side is the majority?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

 

-Jochen 

 

Sent from my Tricorder.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Steve writes:

<<Was Bernie - before - Clinton  ever on the table for the FriAM congregation?   Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even McMullen and his ???s ?   Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal?>>

I thought the democrats had two decent candidates, at least on technical grounds.  I was rooting for Bernie during the primaries, although I don't really buy that the donor class and super pacs are so terrible.   Jeb Bush had a big donor base and so did Clinton.  It didn't help.   People that put down $$$ are at least people putting their money where their mouth is -- in contrast to those that get their emotions all spun up with little in the way of facts to ground their preferences.    The stabilizing force of all that money and organization seems pretty reassuring right now.  

I don't think the micro-candidates will work.  First of all, if they had the chops to be professional politicians, they could navigate the two party system and move up through the ranks.   Ranked-choice voting is fine by itself, but at some point you're not really going to get what you want anyway: It's a high dimensional set of preferences getting projected down to just a few.   If there are more than two choices then the winner could get less than 30% of the vote.   That's not much of a mandate.  Instead of a divided America (2 parts) you get a fragmented America (many parts).   

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:28:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America

 

Frank -

I was not admonishing you, but DO admit that I assumed you were speaking to the "congregation at large" not merely the attendees at "the Mother Church"...   As you know I DO occasionally attend High Mass at the Fri(day)AM with ritual consumption of the blood of Complexity Yak (aka Coffee)... but not often nor in a while.

That said, I am curious if you believe that the physical attendees at FriAM services are in fact pro-Clinton or merely anti-Trump or anti-Republican?   Was Bernie - before - Clinton  ever on the table for the FriAM congregation?   Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even McMullen and his ???s ?   Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal?

Nick and DaveW -

I think I believe in "Consensus building through dialog" though perhaps do want to emphasize "building" with an understanding that it is a task that has no completion date.

I think (despite my implications of being confrontational with pro-Trumpers) that there is plenty of fertile ground left after busting their chops to then discuss what we all have in common, what we all seek, what the commons looks like and how to cultivate, repair, and preserve it for the next 7 generations.  

- Steve

On 12/4/16 9:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Thanks, Steve.  I should have been explicit that I was thinking of the dozen or more people who sit around the table on Friday mornings when I said Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton.  I sometimes forget about the couple hundred(?) who read the list but may not even live in Santa Fe.  I apologize.

Frank

On Dec 4, 2016 9:31 PM, "Steven A Smith" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank -
 
I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here.   I don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about the election framed within the more theoretical context of social choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc.

I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away or underground?  I understand that this forum is not intended to be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are probably collectively much bluer than red.  I'm surprised we don't have a more vocal/overt Green tinge?  Maybe it is the age/academic dimensions of our collective feature space?

I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely different" (from the group and from one another).   I couldn't be characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract measures.   Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly anti-Trump/Republican.  I see that while I was composing this (over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own non-red/blue tribute.

I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting them the first time after the election with something like: "I am SO relieved that we didn't elect another hawkish, elite, bourgeoisie Clinton!";  followed by a nice pregnant pause and then: "The only thing worse than that was having that narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1%  Trump, elected as the hero of the proletariat class!"  and "he's YOUR boy, I'm going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world". 

I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective which in my opinion does not require big government (the old tax-n-spend liberal jab).   It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons, the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats (NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians.   The Greens are as close to a formal, organized group as I can see.   Bernie was at the very least "a good start" from my perspective.   I

 like DaveW's  suggestion of the possibility that this is a fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his favor.   Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide.   That is simply Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric.  So *I* do engage my "Trumpian" friends as best I can, though, the more informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what you ask for"!  *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a WTF moment, myself.

I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats.   Given the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to have Green as an option.  I don't know what color Gary is, some strange shade of purple?   I support his basic platform of personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business any more.   His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones.

As for Jochen's original question:  "Will Trump make America great again?"... geeze!  I hope not!  His vision of greatness is to be a "great bully" on the world stage.    Whether it is military or economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring us, I don't want that.   I can see a few silver linings in the grey cloud that he is:

1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are competent enough to achieve what they seek.  I think they will fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error.   But they will make big messes in the meantime.
2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that.   He has either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or so I hope).   I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems... Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their niche and absorb most of their momentum.  
   
3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better.   Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load, not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?).
   

Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton.  She won in New Mexico.  I am sure I will be corrected if necessary.

Frank

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove