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Prof David West

wackos

In a different thread, Glen wrote:

"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."

Although I have heard people express a desire for such conversations and questions about finding a common ground upon which to base them — I do not believe a single one of them was honest or sincere.

There is only one circumstance in which a 'conversation' with a wacko has any point: a professional psychiatrist seeking to mitigate the mental condition of a patient.

Perhaps "right wing wackos" is simply a label (RWW) for a group and not an assertion of their sanity.

If RWW are an alien species, ala Martians, then conversation/dialog/exchange might be quite useful and even beneficial — the SciFi trope of "look how much we could learn from someone with such a different perspective." An alternative SciFi trope: "we can never understand each other so we must be implacable enemies and seek to annihilate each other;" is also possible. (Unfortunately, I think the second trope is far more descriptive of the majority of left-vs-right rhetoric these days.)

If RWW are simply an exotic human culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently desirable.

However, there are preconditions — maybe just one — the ethical principle of cultural anthropology: relativism. There are no objective criteria by which you can judge the 'correctness' the 'rightness' the 'fitness' (there is no cultural evolution theory analogous to Darwin with species) or the 'morality' among cultures. To think otherwise is ethnocentrism.

Ethnocentrism is perfect if your goal is to be a cultural imperialist or a missionary, but is not a foundation for constructive dialog or conversation.

I love and respect you all, but you seem to me to be one of the most ethnocentric (Liberal-Scientism, for want of a better label) cultures around.

A common saying about the role of an anthropologist: "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." An ethnography of the RWW would be, in my opinion, quite valuable; and, along with dropping the ethnocentrism, prerequisite to any conversation with them. You run the risk, however, that your study of the mote in the other's eye will craft a lens or a mirror that will reflect the beam in your own.

davew

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: wackos

< If RWW are an alien species, ala Martians, then conversation/dialog/exchange might be quite useful and even beneficial — the SciFi trope of "look how much we could learn from someone with such a different perspective." An alternative SciFi trope: "we can never understand each other so we must be implacable enemies and seek to annihilate each other;" is also possible. (Unfortunately, I think the second trope is far more descriptive of the majority of left-vs-right rhetoric these days.) >

RWWs are on Mars now? Let us begin terraforming with all haste!

I really don’t know where many of the people on this list are, and really it doesn’t matter.

I imagine a meat space meeting would resemble the Mos Eisley Cantina.

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Dave,

Forgodsake, there are seventy-two million of Them; there must be one I could talk to.

I don’t think my desire to find common ground is either dishonest or insincere. It might be misguided or naïve, in that I am inclined to imagine the other person changing, rather than myself. I claim that the most crucial thing I need to have a useful argument with another human being is that he/she finds our disagreement an unstable state that can be stabilized by honest argument or by a mutually understood and circumscribed agreement to disagree.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 2:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] wackos

In a different thread, Glen wrote:

"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."

There is only one circumstance in which a 'conversation' with a wacko has any point: a professional psychiatrist seeking to mitigate the mental condition of a patient.

Perhaps "right wing wackos" is simply a label (RWW) for a group and not an assertion of their sanity.

If RWW are simply an exotic human culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently desirable.

Ethnocentrism is perfect if your goal is to be a cultural imperialist or a missionary, but is not a foundation for constructive dialog or conversation.

I love and respect you all, but you seem to me to be one of the most ethnocentric (Liberal-Scientism, for want of a better label) cultures around.

davew

Steve Smith

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Dave -

Your reference to Science Fiction tropes reminds me of Larry Niven's "Footfall" wherein an alien species somewhat resembling Elephants "lands" on humanity with all four feet heavily and we, in our monkey-selves respond hyper-aggressively and clamber our way (metaphorically) up these huge creature's legs to eventually drag them down. As I remember the arc of the plot going, humans are vastly outdone by these (advanced technologically) creatures who seem hell-bent on "stomping us into the ground". It took an anthropologist/zoologist (by perspective if not training) to recognize that as some human battles got the upper hand, that the "elephants" would "roll over" and being the angry monkeys we are, we would use their vulnerability to "finish them off", after all, they had been "stomping us into the ground" for months/years by that time, so we had to use the upper hand given us. What was recognized was the similarity of these "elephantine creatures" to terrestrial elephants and that they were sincere in their submission to our (rarely but occasional) superior ability in battle. The amateur *-ologist convinced someone in a position of authority in the military to *try* offering a formalized (ritualized) "submission" to the aliens which yielded the hoped-for results. This opened the door to a negotiation which had heretofore been ignored/rebuffed... as if the alien "elephants" did not understand negotiating with a "rival" until there had been a test of ability/will/strength between them, and the "monkey's" insistence to just fight harder when outmatched seemed insane to them. As it ended (I think), it turned out that the "elephants" were refugees from a dying solar system just looking for a habitable place to settle, and were quite advanced spiritually/intellectually/technologically and happy to coexist with us... particularly well since they were herbivorous and also had plenty of tech/art to offer us as a "companion species" if we would just quit being so brutal when confronted, and submit when bested!

I don't pretend this translates directly to our current red/blue, right/left problem, but there may be some useful ideas in there. Mary and I both came from Gun-toting, extraction-industry, red-state, red-neck stock and are both often *appalled* at what our family's and (former and current) neighbors find to be "reasonable" and "justified" (broadly Trumpism at it's worst) and yet on any given topic, we can understand (if not agree with their positions)... My own family is more problematic (in my opinion) than Mary's I feel like her brothers come by and maintain their limited world-view more rightly... no advanced education, strong blue-collar/extractive jobs, travel limited to 2 year stints on ships in the Navy, annual pilgrimages to Sturgis and one-price cruises or guided scuba expeditions with groups of their own "kind". My sister and her husband have traveled/lived the world, have advanced educations and are part of the worldwide network of advanced Transcendental Meditators who got up at 5AM (AZ time daily to meditate (pray?) together to smooth the 2020 election with their karmic resonance).... they are (decades late) on board with climate change, COVID-is-real and being honest about immigration pressures (finally) but were full up Trumpians until COVID. They are just "judgemental and sour" people when it comes to evaluating other's abilities/motivations/social-standing. They do fine with people they actually *meet* and *know* but are quick to dismiss huge swaths of people because of their differences? I think this style of dismissal of others is what you (Dave) keep calling *us* out on, even if the subjects are a different subset of the population. I'm just happy I can have meaningful conversations with one of their three children (and both of my own and all of Mary's) on these topics. The baby-boomers (and my mom who is of the 'Greatest') will just have to age/die out for a lot of this to change?

- Steve

In a different thread, Glen wrote:

"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."

Although I have heard people express a desire for such conversations and questions about finding a common ground upon which to base them — I do not believe a single one of them was honest or sincere.

There is only one circumstance in which a 'conversation' with a wacko has any point: a professional psychiatrist seeking to mitigate the mental condition of a patient.

Perhaps "right wing wackos" is simply a label (RWW) for a group and not an assertion of their sanity.

If RWW are an alien species, ala Martians, then conversation/dialog/exchange might be quite useful and even beneficial — the SciFi trope of "look how much we could learn from someone with such a different perspective." An alternative SciFi trope: "we can never understand each other so we must be implacable enemies and seek to annihilate each other;" is also possible. (Unfortunately, I think the second trope is far more descriptive of the majority of left-vs-right rhetoric these days.)

If RWW are simply an exotic human culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently desirable.

However, there are preconditions — maybe just one — the ethical principle of cultural anthropology: relativism. There are no objective criteria by which you can judge the 'correctness' the 'rightness' the 'fitness' (there is no cultural evolution theory analogous to Darwin with species) or the 'morality' among cultures. To think otherwise is ethnocentrism.

Ethnocentrism is perfect if your goal is to be a cultural imperialist or a missionary, but is not a foundation for constructive dialog or conversation.

I love and respect you all, but you seem to me to be one of the most ethnocentric (Liberal-Scientism, for want of a better label) cultures around.

A common saying about the role of an anthropologist: "to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." An ethnography of the RWW would be, in my opinion, quite valuable; and, along with dropping the ethnocentrism, prerequisite to any conversation with them. You run the risk, however, that your study of the mote in the other's eye will craft a lens or a mirror that will reflect the beam in your own.

davew
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Steve Smith

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus wrote...

> RWWs are on Mars now? Let us begin terraforming with all haste!

If you sign up for Starlink, your EULA will include an endorsement that "Mars is a Free Planet" which I read as Musk paving the way to claim full "squatters rights" on Mars simply by virtue of him achieving the means to do so before anyone else can (might makes right, finders keepers, possession is 90%, yadda yadda). The precedent of the Hudson Bay company comes to mind. I only trust there are no "Barsoomians" to be exterminated/exploited, or if there are such that they are crypto-savants (like those who raised Valentine Michael Smith) and can outmanouvre the likes of even someone as technologically/tactically capable as Musk & Co.

I really don’t know where many of the people on this list are, and really it doesn’t matter.

I imagine a meat space meeting would resemble the Mos Eisley Cantina.

I prefer the image of Callahan's Crosstime Saloon or Clarke's White Hart Pub. I would *like* for us to be yet-more-eclectic than we are... but that is a moot conceit. Maybe next vFriam we should solicit everyone to wear their favorite halloween/cosplay gear?

- Steve

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Prof David West

< If RWW are simply an exotic human culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently desirable. >

It’s not exotic. It’s backwards. Broken. Used up. Waste of time and attention.

Please give me something new that I haven’t been trying to get away from my whole life.

Marcus

gepr

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Prof David West

It's odd to me that Dave would take the string "wacko" so literally. As a kid, my dad and uncle consistently greeted each other with phrases like "Hey Ugly! It's good to see you." Anyone who actually heard such exchanges wouldn't think they were being literal. The same is true with my wak friends <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wak>.

It's especially odd that Dave would be so hyper-literal and then immediately follow it up with an accusation of ethnocentrism. If I were to classify this group, I'd use the word "misfits". While most of us probably fit in well enough to earn some sort of living, into some stereotype (ethnocentrist demographic), I suspect what keeps many of us paying attention is because we're all *wak* ... misfit weirdos in some dimension or other. But what do I know? I fly my freak flag proudly.

On 12/1/20 12:32 PM, Prof David West wrote:

> In a different thread, Glen wrote:
>
> /"what many of us purport to /*/*want*/*/... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."/
>
> Although I have heard people express a desire for such conversations and questions about finding a common ground upon which to base them — I do not believe a single one of them was honest or sincere.
>
> There is only one circumstance in which a 'conversation' with a wacko has any point: a professional psychiatrist seeking to mitigate the mental condition of a patient.
>
> Perhaps "right wing wackos" is simply a label (RWW) for a group and not an assertion of their sanity.
>
> If RWW are an alien species, ala Martians, then conversation/dialog/exchange might be quite useful and even beneficial — the SciFi trope of "look how much we could learn from someone with such a different perspective." An alternative SciFi trope: "we can never understand each other so we must be implacable enemies and seek to annihilate each other;" is also possible. (Unfortunately, I think the second trope is far more descriptive of the majority of left-vs-right rhetoric these days.)
>
> If RWW are simply an exotic human culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently desirable.
>
> However, there are preconditions — maybe just one — the ethical principle of cultural anthropology: relativism. There are no objective criteria by which you can judge the 'correctness' the 'rightness' the 'fitness' (there is no cultural evolution theory analogous to Darwin with species) or the 'morality' among cultures. To think otherwise is ethnocentrism.
>
> Ethnocentrism is perfect if your goal is to be a cultural imperialist or a missionary, but is not a foundation for constructive dialog or conversation.
>
> I love and respect you all, but you seem to me to be one of the most ethnocentric (Liberal-Scientism, for want of a better label) cultures around.
>
> A common saying about the role of an anthropologist: /"to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange."/ An ethnography of the RWW would be, in my opinion, quite valuable; and, along with dropping the ethnocentrism, prerequisite to any conversation with them. You run the risk, however, that your study of the mote in the other's eye will craft a lens or a mirror that will reflect the beam in your own.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: wackos

I do not take wacko literally — that was my point about the psychiatrist.

I do think that wacko is a synonym for "THEM," hence my focus on aliens and cultures.

Have to affirm my * observation/opinion * vis-a-vis ethnocentrism. Happy to defend that position but doubt interest.

Callahan's Is my kind of place and I can see all of you as regulars.

davew

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020, at 3:24 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> It's odd to me that Dave would take the string "wacko" so literally. As

> a kid, my dad and uncle consistently greeted each other with phrases

> like "Hey Ugly! It's good to see you." Anyone who actually heard such

> exchanges wouldn't think they were being literal. The same is true with

> my wak friends <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wak>.

> It's especially odd that Dave would be so hyper-literal and then

> immediately follow it up with an accusation of ethnocentrism. If I were

> to classify this group, I'd use the word "misfits". While most of us

> probably fit in well enough to earn some sort of living, into some

> stereotype (ethnocentrist demographic), I suspect what keeps many of us

> paying attention is because we're all *wak* ... misfit weirdos in some

> dimension or other. But what do I know? I fly my freak flag proudly.

> On 12/1/20 12:32 PM, Prof David West wrote:

> > In a different thread, Glen wrote:

> >

> > /"what many of us purport to /*/*want*/*/... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."/

> >

> > Although I have heard people express a desire for such conversations and questions about finding a common ground upon which to base them — I do not believe a single one of them was honest or sincere.

> >

> > There is only one circumstance in which a 'conversation' with a wacko has any point: a professional psychiatrist seeking to mitigate the mental condition of a patient.

> >

> > Perhaps "right wing wackos" is simply a label (RWW) for a group and not an assertion of their sanity.

> >

> > If RWW are an alien species, ala Martians, then conversation/dialog/exchange might be quite useful and even beneficial — the SciFi trope of "look how much we could learn from someone with such a different perspective." An alternative SciFi trope: "we can never understand each other so we must be implacable enemies and seek to annihilate each other;" is also possible. (Unfortunately, I think the second trope is far more descriptive of the majority of left-vs-right rhetoric these days.)

> >

> > If RWW are simply an exotic human culture; conversation, dialogue, exchange; all are eminently desirable.

> >

> > However, there are preconditions — maybe just one — the ethical principle of cultural anthropology: relativism. There are no objective criteria by which you can judge the 'correctness' the 'rightness' the 'fitness' (there is no cultural evolution theory analogous to Darwin with species) or the 'morality' among cultures. To think otherwise is ethnocentrism.

> >

> > Ethnocentrism is perfect if your goal is to be a cultural imperialist or a missionary, but is not a foundation for constructive dialog or conversation.

> >

> > I love and respect you all, but you seem to me to be one of the most ethnocentric (Liberal-Scientism, for want of a better label) cultures around.

> >

> > A common saying about the role of an anthropologist: /"to make the strange familiar and the familiar strange."/ An ethnography of the RWW would be, in my opinion, quite valuable; and, along with dropping the ethnocentrism, prerequisite to any conversation with them. You run the risk, however, that your study of the mote in the other's eye will craft a lens or a mirror that will reflect the beam in your own.

> --

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gepr

Re: wackos

OK. Well, *I* don't use it as a term for *other*. I count myself among the wackos. Any reflective misfit will count themselves that way. I ask myself on at least a daily basis whether or not I'm the crazy one. This reflective *awkwardness* is even a theme in most modern comedies. To think "wacko" is a synonym for "the other" misses a HUGE part of popular culture. So, I can't help but wonder who, here, is guilty of "ethnocentrism"? Perhaps it's those who think they understand a culture they don't understand? >8^D

On 12/1/20 4:21 PM, Prof David West wrote:
> I do not take wacko literally — that was my point about the psychiatrist.
>
> I do think that wacko is a synonym for "THEM," hence my focus on aliens and cultures.
>
> Have to affirm my ** observation/opinion ** vis-a-vis ethnocentrism. Happy to defend that position but doubt interest.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Eric Charles-2

Re: wackos

" I do not take wacko literally"

I would have also taken it literally, but not as expansively.

The problem is that there are Right Wing Wackos. Not only are there Right Wing Wackos, there seem to be more now than there were a while ago, or, at least, and they are more publicly visible, and more powerful and influential, than they a while ago. And, at some point, many people seem to lose the ability to distinguish Right Wing Wackos from Right Wing non-Wackos. (RWnW?) I have had many friends assert, for example, over the past 4 years that it is impossible to identify right-wing to any degree without being a racist who hates freedom, loves government corruption, and wants anyone who is not cis-hetero to kill themselves. At that point, dialog is pretty close to impossible. So... Given that there are Wackos to be talked about, the interesting question is whether we can distinguish the Wackos from the non-Wackos well enough to figure out who we can have a dialog with.

Also, there are Left Wing Wackos. And when you stop distinguishing RWW from RWnW, many RWnW reflexively reflect that mistake by claiming all LW are LWW (denying the existence of LWnW).

----

Separate general note, I agree with Dave about the pseudo-ethnocentrism of FRIAM in general. The interesting question for me is whether such a thing can be maintained without becoming overly pretentious and imperialist about it. America used to have a heavy sense of provincialism that served, in part, to counter the overly-self-confident tendencies that homogeneity encourages. Emerson could embody his area's mentality, and promote it, without necessarily thinking it should be imposed on people who live very different lives in very different parts of the country. (This is, in part, why the Fugitive Slave Act was such a crucial event in setting up the Civil War: It forced areas like Boston and Cambridge to be directly, rather than indirectly, supportive of slavery, which was "The South" breaking poking a significant hole in the provinical bubble.) But we seem to have almost completely lost that ability. I see so many people who think "Everyone I know agrees with me" as an indication that those who disagree must be crazy. It is disheartening.

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:08 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

OK. Well, *I* don't use it as a term for *other*. I count myself among the wackos. Any reflective misfit will count themselves that way. I ask myself on at least a daily basis whether or not I'm the crazy one. This reflective *awkwardness* is even a theme in most modern comedies. To think "wacko" is a synonym for "the other" misses a HUGE part of popular culture. So, I can't help but wonder who, here, is guilty of "ethnocentrism"? Perhaps it's those who think they understand a culture they don't understand? >8^D

On 12/1/20 4:21 PM, Prof David West wrote:
> I do not take wacko literally — that was my point about the psychiatrist.
>
> I do think that wacko is a synonym for "THEM," hence my focus on aliens and cultures.
>
> Have to affirm my ** observation/opinion ** vis-a-vis ethnocentrism. Happy to defend that position but doubt interest.

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Prof David West

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by gepr

My original cite:

"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."

I took "the right wing wackos in our lives" as a reference to a subset of the body of Trump supporters, and more specifically the 74 million who voted for him, that we happen to be in contact with. I think that is consistent with comments in various threads about talking with / trying to understand Trumpists. Nick's and Marcus' responses in this thread would seem to affirm my reading of the referent. In that case, I stand by my remarks.

It is quite possible that I was wrong. Your comments suggest that I was. Perhaps you literally meant to reference a group "Wackos," a subset of whom are "right wing" (without any implication that "right wing" within the wacko group have any correlation with right wing in a US political context), and the subset of them who are in our lives.

If this is the case, then nothing I said pertains to Wackos or the Wacko culture. You would certainly be correct in asserting that I do not understand that culture, as I am unaware of the group, qua group, itself.

However, I am the consummate outsider, identifying with no group nor culture and therefore can be guilty of egocentricsm, but never ethnocentrism.

An ethnography of the Wacko culture would be an interesting project. As a self-professed, flag possessing, member of that culture, could you provide some pointers to the commonly accepted hallmarks of a culture: shared world view, shared language, shared values, shared customs/behaviors, shared modes of dress, definitions of kinship (blood or virtual), shared technology, etc.?

davew

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020, at 6:07 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> OK. Well, *I* don't use it as a term for *other*. I count myself among

> the wackos. Any reflective misfit will count themselves that way. I ask

> myself on at least a daily basis whether or not I'm the crazy one. This

> reflective *awkwardness* is even a theme in most modern comedies. To

> think "wacko" is a synonym for "the other" misses a HUGE part of

> popular culture. So, I can't help but wonder who, here, is guilty of

> "ethnocentrism"? Perhaps it's those who think they understand a culture

> they don't understand? >8^D

> On 12/1/20 4:21 PM, Prof David West wrote:

> > I do not take wacko literally — that was my point about the psychiatrist.

> >

> > I do think that wacko is a synonym for "THEM," hence my focus on aliens and cultures.

> >

> > Have to affirm my ** observation/opinion ** vis-a-vis ethnocentrism. Happy to defend that position but doubt interest.

> --

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gepr

Re: wackos

The "in our lives" part *should* have given my meaning. Obviously it did not. Whatever.

But one who hooks their identity to their outsider-ness, then complains about non-outsiders may not be *technically* guilty of ethnocentrism. But that smacks of sophistry. All we need do is look at the "Revenge of the Nerds" series and the rise of the modern "nerd culture" to see that. You are only as outsider as you *choose* to be. We can choose not to listen to those around us. Not to see them as fellow outsiders. Or we can *pretend* that we're the select elite with special feelings of outsider-ness ... persecution complex?

The reality is we all feel that way *most* of the time. This is the primary insight from social media. All we see in posts from "influencers" are the views from their "good side" ... sucking in their bellies on the beach in Belize ... adhering to their fad diet ... smiling ... What we DON'T see is selfies of them after downing a whole bag of cookies because their life is totally empty and they're about to commit suicide.

We all *feel* like outsiders. That's part of the modern condition. And it's very sad that many of us lack the empathy to see through the mirage.

As to the wak culture I feel most comfortable in, that's the metal [sub]culture. Our flags and common dress are well known, tend toward earthy colors, particularly black. Satanic imagery. Particular ways of dancing. Tests of "street cred" by mentioning obscure artists, festivals, events, or styles (like downtuning). Etc. That this culture is *viewed* as wacko was evidenced by the "Satanic Panic" of the '80s and '90s and continues today in some ways. We've clawed our way to respectability over time as a sibling to other geek/outsider [sub]cultures. As for my own outsider-ness, I still don't fit that well, even there. One fellow member gave me the "side eye" when I told him I had switched from math rock and industrial to psytrance as my background music for programming grooves.

On 12/2/20 7:08 AM, Prof David West wrote:

> My original cite:
>
> /"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."/
>
> I took /"the right wing wackos in our lives"/ as a reference to a subset of the body of Trump supporters, and more specifically the 74 million who voted for him, that we happen to be in contact with. I think that is consistent with comments in various threads about talking with / trying to understand Trumpists. Nick's and Marcus' responses in this thread would seem to affirm my reading of the referent. In that case, I stand by my remarks.
>
> It is quite possible that I was wrong. Your comments suggest that I was. Perhaps you literally meant to reference a group "Wackos," a subset of whom are "right wing" (without any implication that "right wing" within the wacko group have any correlation with right wing in a US political context), and the subset of them who are in our lives.
>
> If this is the case, then nothing I said pertains to Wackos or the Wacko culture. You would certainly be correct in asserting that I do not understand that culture, as I am unaware of the group, qua group, itself.
>
> However, I am the consummate outsider, identifying with no group nor culture and therefore can be guilty of egocentricsm, but never ethnocentrism.
>
> An ethnography of the Wacko culture would be an interesting project. As a self-professed, flag possessing, member of that culture, could you provide some pointers to the commonly accepted hallmarks of a culture: shared world view, shared language, shared values, shared customs/behaviors, shared modes of dress, definitions of kinship (blood or virtual), shared technology, etc.?

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: wackos

Outsiderness is an affectation, nothing more.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, at 9:20 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> The "in our lives" part *should* have given my meaning. Obviously it
> did not. Whatever.
>
> But one who hooks their identity to their outsider-ness, then complains
> about non-outsiders may not be *technically* guilty of ethnocentrism.
> But that smacks of sophistry. All we need do is look at the "Revenge of
> the Nerds" series and the rise of the modern "nerd culture" to see
> that. You are only as outsider as you *choose* to be. We can choose not
> to listen to those around us. Not to see them as fellow outsiders. Or
> we can *pretend* that we're the select elite with special feelings of
> outsider-ness ... persecution complex?
>
> The reality is we all feel that way *most* of the time. This is the
> primary insight from social media. All we see in posts from
> "influencers" are the views from their "good side" ... sucking in their
> bellies on the beach in Belize ... adhering to their fad diet ...
> smiling ... What we DON'T see is selfies of them after downing a whole
> bag of cookies because their life is totally empty and they're about to
> commit suicide.
>
> We all *feel* like outsiders. That's part of the modern condition. And
> it's very sad that many of us lack the empathy to see through the
> mirage.
>
> As to the wak culture I feel most comfortable in, that's the metal
> [sub]culture. Our flags and common dress are well known, tend toward
> earthy colors, particularly black. Satanic imagery. Particular ways of
> dancing. Tests of "street cred" by mentioning obscure artists,
> festivals, events, or styles (like downtuning). Etc. That this culture
> is *viewed* as wacko was evidenced by the "Satanic Panic" of the '80s
> and '90s and continues today in some ways. We've clawed our way to
> respectability over time as a sibling to other geek/outsider
> [sub]cultures. As for my own outsider-ness, I still don't fit that
> well, even there. One fellow member gave me the "side eye" when I told
> him I had switched from math rock and industrial to psytrance as my
> background music for programming grooves.
>
> On 12/2/20 7:08 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > My original cite:
> >
> > /"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."/
> >
> > I took /"the right wing wackos in our lives"/ as a reference to a subset of the body of Trump supporters, and more specifically the 74 million who voted for him, that we happen to be in contact with. I think that is consistent with comments in various threads about talking with / trying to understand Trumpists. Nick's and Marcus' responses in this thread would seem to affirm my reading of the referent. In that case, I stand by my remarks.
> >
> > It is quite possible that I was wrong. Your comments suggest that I was. Perhaps you literally meant to reference a group "Wackos," a subset of whom are "right wing" (without any implication that "right wing" within the wacko group have any correlation with right wing in a US political context), and the subset of them who are in our lives.
> >
> > If this is the case, then nothing I said pertains to Wackos or the Wacko culture. You would certainly be correct in asserting that I do not understand that culture, as I am unaware of the group, qua group, itself.
> >
> > However, I am the consummate outsider, identifying with no group nor culture and therefore can be guilty of egocentricsm, but never ethnocentrism.
> >
> > An ethnography of the Wacko culture would be an interesting project. As a self-professed, flag possessing, member of that culture, could you provide some pointers to the commonly accepted hallmarks of a culture: shared world view, shared language, shared values, shared customs/behaviors, shared modes of dress, definitions of kinship (blood or virtual), shared technology, etc.?
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: wackos

< Outsiderness is an affectation, nothing more. >

Yes, we should focus on the content of the RWW belief system and its consequences and do what is possible to delete or attenuate it on that basis.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Prof David West <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 10:15 AM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] wackos

Outsiderness is an affectation, nothing more.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, at 9:20 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> The "in our lives" part *should* have given my meaning. Obviously it
> did not. Whatever.
>
> But one who hooks their identity to their outsider-ness, then complains
> about non-outsiders may not be *technically* guilty of ethnocentrism.
> But that smacks of sophistry. All we need do is look at the "Revenge of
> the Nerds" series and the rise of the modern "nerd culture" to see
> that. You are only as outsider as you *choose* to be. We can choose not
> to listen to those around us. Not to see them as fellow outsiders. Or
> we can *pretend* that we're the select elite with special feelings of
> outsider-ness ... persecution complex?
>
> The reality is we all feel that way *most* of the time. This is the
> primary insight from social media. All we see in posts from
> "influencers" are the views from their "good side" ... sucking in their
> bellies on the beach in Belize ... adhering to their fad diet ...
> smiling ... What we DON'T see is selfies of them after downing a whole
> bag of cookies because their life is totally empty and they're about to
> commit suicide.
>
> We all *feel* like outsiders. That's part of the modern condition. And
> it's very sad that many of us lack the empathy to see through the
> mirage.
>
> As to the wak culture I feel most comfortable in, that's the metal
> [sub]culture. Our flags and common dress are well known, tend toward
> earthy colors, particularly black. Satanic imagery. Particular ways of
> dancing. Tests of "street cred" by mentioning obscure artists,
> festivals, events, or styles (like downtuning). Etc. That this culture
> is *viewed* as wacko was evidenced by the "Satanic Panic" of the '80s
> and '90s and continues today in some ways. We've clawed our way to
> respectability over time as a sibling to other geek/outsider
> [sub]cultures. As for my own outsider-ness, I still don't fit that
> well, even there. One fellow member gave me the "side eye" when I told
> him I had switched from math rock and industrial to psytrance as my
> background music for programming grooves.
>
> On 12/2/20 7:08 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > My original cite:
> >
> > /"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."/
> >
> > I took /"the right wing wackos in our lives"/ as a reference to a subset of the body of Trump supporters, and more specifically the 74 million who voted for him, that we happen to be in contact with. I think that is consistent with comments in various threads about talking with / trying to understand Trumpists. Nick's and Marcus' responses in this thread would seem to affirm my reading of the referent. In that case, I stand by my remarks.
> >
> > It is quite possible that I was wrong. Your comments suggest that I was. Perhaps you literally meant to reference a group "Wackos," a subset of whom are "right wing" (without any implication that "right wing" within the wacko group have any correlation with right wing in a US political context), and the subset of them who are in our lives.
> >
> > If this is the case, then nothing I said pertains to Wackos or the Wacko culture. You would certainly be correct in asserting that I do not understand that culture, as I am unaware of the group, qua group, itself.
> >
> > However, I am the consummate outsider, identifying with no group nor culture and therefore can be guilty of egocentricsm, but never ethnocentrism.
> >
> > An ethnography of the Wacko culture would be an interesting project. As a self-professed, flag possessing, member of that culture, could you provide some pointers to the commonly accepted hallmarks of a culture: shared world view, shared language, shared values, shared customs/behaviors, shared modes of dress, definitions of kinship (blood or virtual), shared technology, etc.?
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Prof David West

< I took "the right wing wackos in our lives" as a reference to a subset of the body of Trump supporters, and more specifically the 74 million who voted for him, that we happen to be in contact with. I think that is consistent with comments in various threads about talking with / trying to understand Trumpists. >

One might try to understand childhood cancer too. Does cancer in childhood have a valid point of view?

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Prof David West <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:08 AM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] wackos

My original cite:

"what many of us purport to *want* ... common ground with which to have a discussion with the right wing wackos in our lives."

However, I am the consummate outsider, identifying with no group nor culture and therefore can be guilty of egocentricsm, but never ethnocentrism.

davew

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020, at 6:07 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> OK. Well, *I* don't use it as a term for *other*. I count myself among

> the wackos. Any reflective misfit will count themselves that way. I ask

> myself on at least a daily basis whether or not I'm the crazy one. This

> reflective *awkwardness* is even a theme in most modern comedies. To

> think "wacko" is a synonym for "the other" misses a HUGE part of

> popular culture. So, I can't help but wonder who, here, is guilty of

> "ethnocentrism"? Perhaps it's those who think they understand a culture

> they don't understand? >8^D

> On 12/1/20 4:21 PM, Prof David West wrote:

> > I do not take wacko literally — that was my point about the psychiatrist.

> >

> > I do think that wacko is a synonym for "THEM," hence my focus on aliens and cultures.

> >

> > Have to affirm my ** observation/opinion ** vis-a-vis ethnocentrism. Happy to defend that position but doubt interest.

> --

> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

gepr

Re: wackos

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Heh, so by claiming you are the consummate outsider, does that mean you are the consummate poser?

On 12/2/20 9:15 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Outsiderness is an affectation, nothing more.

--
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: wackos

Yes

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, at 12:03 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> Heh, so by claiming you are the consummate outsider, does that mean you
> are the consummate poser?
>
> On 12/2/20 9:15 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > Outsiderness is an affectation, nothing more.
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>