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vol 88, issue 12

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HighlandWindsLLC Miller

vol 88, issue 12

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

PhD vs Expertise

Peggy -

I agree with the sentiment that having a PhD doesn't guarantee Expertise, having only a (pair of) BS degree myself and having learned a great deal (most?) of what I use to do my work in the school of hard knocks preceding and following (and paralleling) my formal education. But I don't know of any PhD programs that don't require original and elaborate research.

Despite my own distrust of the PhD mills of the country, I have found, as a mentor to many PhD candidates and PostDocs in my career (at least in Math/Science/CS) that while memorization skills might be handy to get you through many of your undergrad courses and even some grad courses, they won't do your research and they won't write your dissertation, nor defend it in front of your committee.

Again, I agree with the sentiment that one can be quite an expert sans formal advanced degrees.   I myself depend more on being a generalist with only "modest" expertise in any given field.   For many topics, I love having access to seasoned as well as recently-minted PhDs in various technical fields, they often spent several years of their lives studying the one thing in depth that I need to know a lot about and either know most of the dead ends or have one slam-dunk of a solution to my particular problem of the moment.

The seasoned ones are usually my peers or superiors, though there are plenty who took their little scroll of paper, nailed it on the wall (in a very nice frame usually) and never did another lick of original work.   The fresh ones are often sharpened to a fine point, but have no breadth, but that is where real work and mentors like myself come in. We introduce them to a wide range of problems where their acute knowledge on one topic, basic background preparing them for their PhD program, and their general skills in research can be applied over and over again, leading them to becoming well rounded, seasoned experts.

Bozos like myself who chose not to get drug through another several years of formal education may or may not go on to become competitive with the PhDs.   I'm often mistaken for having a PhD, probably not for any specific deep expertise, but for my breadth of interests and skills and my confidence. I sometimes take offense because too many of the PhDs in my (former) circles were lazy blowhards, but the mistaken identity is (almost?) always an indication of respect, not derision.

In the liberal arts, PhDs may very well mean something else, but I hope not. Since most PhDs in Liberal Arts have few other options than Academia, that may skew things a bit.   I'm not sure how Industry uses LIberal Arts PhDs...   gone are the good old days of AI when a PhD in Philosophy would land you a job in AI Research.

Few of my best mentors have had PhDs.   So when looking for a course or seminar or workshop, I don't look at the letters following the teacher/leader/professor's name. If I look at anything, I look for references from others who have studied under her... I look for real-world experience.... I look for an enthusiasm for the subject.

In Nick's case, I think that he has reasons for wanting PhD folks that transcend the question of whether a non-PhD could do the same job equally well or better.   It slims his options down mightily.   The folks I know of who might lead such a seminar are "amatuers" in the very best sense.... limited formal education with a lifetime of dedication and self-study on the topic out of "love" for the topic, not people who had the resources our patience to make it through a formal program.

Carry on,
- Steve

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: vol 88, issue 12

In reply to this post by HighlandWindsLLC Miller

What, in heavens name, Peggy, led you to think I believed such a proposition? (Memorization = scholarship) Do you really think, knowing my writing on the list as well as you do, that I spent my 37 years teaching undergraduates to memorize? (I actually don’t HAVE a memory.) You are, or course, on the correct side of whatever war you are waging, but you are not waging it with me!

My only assertion was that formal advanced professional academic scholarship has SOMETHING to contribute to the mix. Santa Fe is a University town in every respect -- it has arts, galleries, music, theatre, a highly educated population (in part), institutes, policy making organizations, earnest discussion groups, research think tanks, undergraduate colleges, etc. and an abundance of good coffee, -- except that it does not have (many) graduate programs. The CUSF idea is to bring that last and final element of University life to Santa Fe. Since the City is already a university campus in many respects, let’s make that extra effort to become a City University. Read around in the (primitive and ill managed) website www.cusf.org, and see what you think. Help me make it better.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] vol 88, issue 12

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

lrudolph

Re: vol 88, issue 12

In reply to this post by HighlandWindsLLC Miller

On 12 Oct 2010 at 9:16, peggy miller wrote:

> To Nick Thompson re "expertise"
>
> The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself,
> expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

I don't think Nick said (or meant to say) that the fellow
leading the Finnegans Wake group had the work *memorized*;
rather, he *remembers* large hunks of it, in the context
of its *intended structure*. Many, if not all, people with
"a great ability to memorize" are said to do so by *imposing*
a structure on (or, just maybe, discovering an "emergent"
structure in) an _a priori_ unmemorably structured set
of data (like a telephone directory); that's certainly a
talent, but not an expertise, as far as I'm concerned.

In the case of Finnegans Wake, I gather that the
whole point of the work is that its author gave it an
immensely complex structure, which some people (not
me!) find very intellectually and esthetically
satisfying to explore, explicate, tinker with,
etc., etc.--thus it is (and becomes more and more)
memorable for them. Among that group, some become
"experts", and among the "experts" some (probably,
on my guess, aided by that intrinsic "memorability")
end up memorizing large chunks of it. (Other people
may set out to memorize it, but I'm guessing they are
very few.)

In the senses of the words that I'm struggling to define,
no matter *how* much structure can be data-mined out
of a phone directory (by a computer program, or by
the once-famous monomaniac who used to hang out around
the campus of Columbia Univesity handing strangers
broadsheets with his latest numerological discoveries
about the will of God found in the Manhattan phonebook),
no one should properly be called an "expert" on a particular
phone directory (I think that there probably is room for
expertise on the whole class of phone directories, across
space and time); but many people are properly called "experts"
on Finnegans Wake.

I don't think I'm being coherent. Back to Dublin wit' me.

Lee Rudolph

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

CUSF and Higher Educamacation in the City Different.

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick -

Let me leaven any questions I might have stated about PhDs and higher education with an endorsement of your ideas and intentions regarding Santa Fe being a *good place* for people to be able to pursue a higher education.

Many of us here are beyond caring about obtaining more credentials, but many of us may also have children or grandchildren or protege's who we would like to see have the opportunity for a higher education right here in River City (on the Alemeda or on the banks of the Agua Fria?).

While I think there are an *excess* of people qualified to teach the various courses and seminars suggested by an institution such as CUSF, I fear that few of them are *inclined* to do such teaching.   The City Different draws the wealthy, the retired, and various species of the disaffected. It isn't clear which of those groups is likely to want to (or be quailified to) teach.

I don't mean this to be negative, I am just trying to frame why you may be having so much trouble rounding up people to engage properly.   I, for example, am barely qualified by most standards to teach much of anything formally to anyone, and inclined only insomuch as I care passionately about at least a dozen things. Unfortunately I'm also scraping out a living (hard to tell that with all of my blathering here) doing things which, despite their spotty remuneration, are surely better paid than what I would ever see as an un-credentialed adjunct at an emerging (or fully formed) institution.

I want you to find the qualified and energetic and full-of-perspective instructors required for such an institution.   I want my daughter who obtained a BA in liberal arts at CSF (just before they tanked) to have a place to get some more of the same if she wants to return to the area (she is in Denver working full time and pursuing an Art degree in her spare time). But I'm not sure such instructors are going to be easy to find with both full PhDs and the time/inclination to engage.

A more practical and (IMO) likely-to-serve-the-community deal would probably involve a lot more people teaching/leading courses/seminars *without* as many formal qualifications. There are *many* ABDs (all but dissertation) and even high school dropouts who can (and do) provide wonderful education and mentorship on many topics in this town. But maybe there is no way in the existing academic climate to do that formally... it would not do probably to bestow a bunch of honorary degrees on those who have gained much of their skills and knowledge *in spite of* academia, rather than within it's structure. That would defeat the purpose of requiring PhDs for the most part.

I applaud and encourage your efforts and don't want to discourage you from *looking for* the instructor/leader/professor candidates you seek. But I want to encourage a parallel effort that might be less challenging.

When we talk next, I'll try to listen carefully and try to dig through my network for possible resources that can help you with this endeavor... it is meritable... it is a "good thing"... it is... and I hope others here will renew (discover?) their interest in your quest...

- Steve

What, in heavens name, Peggy, led you to think I believed such a proposition? (Memorization = scholarship) Do you really think, knowing my writing on the list as well as you do, that I spent my 37 years teaching undergraduates to memorize? (I actually don’t HAVE a memory.) You are, or course, on the correct side of whatever war you are waging, but you are not waging it with me!

My only assertion was that formal advanced professional academic scholarship has SOMETHING to contribute to the mix. Santa Fe is a University town in every respect -- it has arts, galleries, music, theatre, a highly educated population (in part), institutes, policy making organizations, earnest discussion groups, research think tanks, undergraduate colleges, etc. and an abundance of good coffee, -- except that it does not have (many) graduate programs. The CUSF idea is to bring that last and final element of University life to Santa Fe. Since the City is already a university campus in many respects, let’s make that extra effort to become a City University. Read around in the (primitive and ill managed) website www.cusf.org, and see what you think. Help me make it better.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] vol 88, issue 12

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: PhD vs Expertise

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

With his unerring ability to skewer the question, Steve Smith wrote:

“In Nick's case, I think that he has reasons for wanting PhD folks that transcend the question of whether a non-PhD could do the same job equally well or better. It slims his options down mightily. The folks I know of who might lead such a seminar are "amatuers" in the very best sense.... limited formal education with a lifetime of dedication and self-study on the topic out of "love" for the topic, not people who had the resources our patience to make it through a formal program.”

Well, at this point I am willing to take advice, because I haven’t gotten very far with the City University of Santa Fe idea on my own and I obviously need help. But here is the dilemma I experience. Whenever I give the elevator talk on CUSF I get three responses, immediately: (1)” Get back to me when you have 200 million dollars.” (2) ”Are you accredited? “ (3) “I’m smart, I don’t have a PhD. Why should anybody want a [bleeping] Phd?

Let me try and answer each in turn.

(1) CUSF is just me, a state charter, a small and mostly reluctant board of directors and 30 some members whom I don’t dare to contact for fear they will ask to be removed from the list. There is a provision in the bylaws (on the website) that we cannot handle money. This is because I don’t like to handle money and because, I don’t think one should have money before one has people. If the academic and quasi academic population of santa fe doesn’t WANT a damned university, then I shouldn’t be looking for money for it.

(2) No, I am not accredited. But other institutions in Santa FE ARE accredited. And if they would pull together a little, the CUSF could be spawned out of them. The problem is of course to convince these institutions to become part of a City University, which is looking, in addition to everything that is already going on in Santa Fe, to develop graduate programs in all the things that Santa Fe does best …. Art, Anthropology, Music Performance, Computer science, Archeology, Government, high desert ecology, Complexity studies, etc., etc The advantages to all the educational institutions in Santa Fe would be to raise the profile of Santa Fe as a place to come for higher education … not just a place where you can learn x, y, or z, but an educated place, full of smart people who know a lot of stuff, from which you can learn a lot of stuff.

(3) This is the hardest. I am a sucker for amateurism, as you all know. I am, in fact, probably one of the last people lucky enough to sell himself to academia as a professional amateur. One of the amazing things about Santa Fe is the sheer quantity of organizations here delivering high quality amateur education. But I also am a sucker for professionalism. I think they make a nice mix, a good dialectic. One of the things I have learned, moreover about the people who say, “I’m smart, I don’t have a PhD. Why should anybody want a [bleeping] Phd?” is that, if you offered them a good PhD program, they would grab at it. A period of obsessive specialization is a good thing for any amateur to have experienced, quite apart from any job benefits it may later bring. Look, I am an amateur meteorologist. Have been for 62 years, far longer than I have been a professional psychologist. I have observations that I made on the Worcester Tornado of 1950 and the Massachusetts hurricanes of 1954, Edna and Carol, I think. I have even written a meteorology book But I just don’t know the physics. If I went down to UNM and took a Phd in Meteorology, I would probably know the physics when I got back, if I ever got back. And, I would know about some aspect of meteorology in obsessive detail. I think I would be a better meteorologist for that, don’t you? And, by the way, would you rather go to a board certified neurosurgeon, than the nice guy down the street who has been reading up on neurosurgery and been practicing on rats in his basement since he was a kid? (Actually, I would probably consult both.)

But, as I say, it really is time for me to take advice.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] PhD vs Expertise

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: PhD vs Expertise

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Everybody,

Sorry, by CUSF I meant www.cusf.org

Nick

From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:34 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] PhD vs Expertise

With his unerring ability to skewer the question, Steve Smith wrote:

Let me try and answer each in turn.

But, as I say, it really is time for me to take advice.

Nick

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: CUSF and Higher Educamacation in the City Different.

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

Already operating in Santa Fe are a half a dozen organizations making use of the informally credentialed to teach the informally learning, if you see what I mean. They do it very well. These organizations might need to be encouraged, perhaps, coordinated, presumably, funded, conceivably, honored, certainly, but they don’t need to be duplicated.

The only question in my mind – and you raise many good challenges even to the question – is: Would “we”, whoever “we” is, be happier 25 years from now, if there were a City University of Santa Fe offering graduate education in the things that Santa Fe does best. If “we” don’t think “we” would be happier, then I don’t think “we” should do it. Whoever “we” is.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

President and Groundskeeper.

The City University of Santa Fe.

http://home.earthlink.net/nthompson

http://www.cusf.org

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:59 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] CUSF and Higher Educamacation in the City Different.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] vol 88, issue 12

To Nick Thompson re "expertise"

The ability to memorize and quote things is not, in and of itself, expertise. It is simple a great ability to memorize.

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Parks, Raymond

Re: PhD vs Expertise

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nicholas Thompson wrote:
...
> Whenever I give the elevator talk on CUSF I get three responses,
> immediately:

> (1)” Get back to me when you have 200 million dollars.”

Get $200 million (or some reasonable amount). The Free University of
Berlin got started with a Ford Foundation grant. Find (or become) one
of the grantsmanship elite. This will work better if you get something
started to which you can point.

> (2) ”Are you accredited? “

Catch-22 time. You can't get accredited until you teach something and
you can't teach until you get accredited. See suggestion below.

> (3) “I’m smart, I don’t have a PhD. Why should anybody want a [bleeping] Phd?

As you point out, those folks would grab at a PhD if there was a
decent one available. Many of those folks, like myself, just don't
think they can learn anything or think they'd be bored stiff learning
from the usual PhD mill. I last attended grad school in about 1990 and
even then, after 12 years of real-world experience since earning my BS,
I thought some of the course material was too basic. If I tried to get
a Masters or PhD in my field, I'd be taking courses from people I work
with and advise - my peers. That doesn't work.

Suggestion: Pick a single course, divide and conquer the syllabus,
and conduct it with a team of volunteer instructors.

Choose a course for which you think you can get volunteers (in this
group it would probably be best to choose complexity). The course
should be one from an established university (outside of New Mexico for
the sake of non-competition) taught by professor who's willing to share
the syllabus and, possibly, material. For this first course, don't pick
something that requires computational capacity beyond that of an
individual student.

Take the syllabus and divide it into subject areas that fit the
interests of your volunteer group. Most syllabi are organized into
subject sections, just like textbooks.

The course should have roughly 45-50 one-hour lessons. If each
instructor teaches two lessons you'll need about 22 to 25 volunteer
instructors. The time required from the instructors is a little high
(two hours of teaching plus about twenty of prep), but if each
instructor teaches something about which they are passionate they'll be
willing to give it.

You may have to go through a couple of candidate courses before you
find the ideal one for your trial. The whole point is to get something
going - if you can show a graduate-level course equivalent to one taught
by an accredited university, you should be able to win the grant war.

--
Ray Parks [hidden email]
Consilient Heuristician Voice: 505-844-4024
ATA Department Mobile: 505-238-9359
http://www.sandia.gov/scada Fax: 505-844-9641
http://www.sandia.gov/idart Pager:505-951-6084

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

lrudolph

Re: CUSF and Higher Educamacation in the City Different.

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On 12 Oct 2010 at 13:45, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> The only question in my mind - and you raise many good challenges even to
> the question - is: Would "we", whoever "we" is, be happier 25 years from
> now, if there were a City University of Santa Fe offering graduate
> education in the things that Santa Fe does best.

"Graduate education" (particularly in the current sense, with its
overlay of increasingly bogus "accreditation" standards and
standards-enforcement bodies [1], and the creeping cargo-cult
management [2] that has already laid much "undergraduate
education" low) is neither intensionally nor extensionally
identical with "educating graduates".

How could "you"-all not be happy (or, more precisely, happier than
you would be otherwise) if you and your successors were (among other
activities) truly educating graduates "in the things that Santa Fe
does best"? That's not a rhetorical question; I really don't find
it easy to imagine how someone, engaged in right livelihood and
knowledgeable about it (and other things), *wouldn't* enjoy truly
educating others (who had come to seek such education and who had
given some evidence of being educable as well as willing).

On the other hand, I find it very easy to imagine how engaging
in "graduate education" as it is (and how it is coming to be)
could make someone unhappy. It very often does (and perhaps
oftener ought to).

Lee Rudolph

[1] A couple of years ago, I heard the then-provost of
Vanderbilt University on the radio, speaking as a member
(perhaps as the chair) of a Federally-chartered commission
charged with setting accreditation standards for higher
education. They had been charged with creating--and were
in the process of pilot testing--a *standardized test* for
"critical thinking", whereby to determine how well given
institutions of higher learning were teaching "critical
thinking". Jesus wept. (The project seems to have sunk
out of sight for the time being.) I admit, this was
for "undergraduate education", but the trend is there
at the graduate level as well, just delayed.

[2] I mean this in a sense analogous to Feynman's phrase
"cargo-cult physics". University administrators increasingly
go through ritual performances that have the *form* of
activities that businesses (at least, businesses run by
MBAs) go through for (presumably) reasons that bear a
demonstrable relation to those businesses' reason for
being, and have been validated empirically. These rituals
involve an enormous amount of quantification, 5-year-planning,
"branding" [3], and so on, but in (I hope) contrast to the
practices in businesses, the university practices are entirely
ungrounded in the reality of the university (even the tawdry
one on the ground, much less the ideal "community of learners"),
they are never validated empirically *even on their own terms*,
and they consume enormous amounts of time and effort extorted
from non-administrative staff (definitely including professors).
Yet somehow the cargo plane loaded with goodies never lands!

[3] Clark's new brand is "ClarkYOU". I am not kidding.
How *could* they? ClarkYOU and the horse you rode in on,
pardner.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org