types of knowledge
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With millions looking for work, stigmas create a dearth of skilled tradespeople https://youtu.be/c4s-4fK5r0w Listening to an interview of this guy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kehinde_Andrews>, I was glad to hear him address the sterility of the Western philosophy, the ideal, or "pure academy", or whatever, where people value thinking so highly as to get lost in what the thinking is *for*. But in the particular interview, he made a claim that sounded like a gloss over *types* of doing that I didn't like, something like: "Black philosophy says the best way to do philosophy, to think, is to be directly involved in trying to change the world." While I deeply agree with the position that the best way to think is to be directly involved in the world, to do, to act, to be, the distinction between being *in* the world versus trying to *change* the world is absolutely crucial. The strawmanny self-contradiction is easy to point out. You can't have a clear idea for changing the world without that ideal objective toward which you change the world. So, that type of action-thinking depends fundamentally on the ideal-abstraction, counterfactual pure thinking, he's trying to criticize. But the less strawmanny criticism is that engineering and science [⛧] are very different things. This disambiguation of types of action-thinking is often missing from my more practical friends, people who spend the overwhelming majority of their time *doing* ... where the overwhelming majority of their thinking is tightly coupled to some form of doing. The ones who grok it seem to get a lot of satisfaction from activities like, just e.g., disassembling a motorcycle just to "clean" it and put it back together again. They're not trying to *fix* the thing so much as bathing in its beauty. The PBS segment (inadvertently) broaches that type distinction, I think. But I wish it were called out more clearly. It may seem difficult to appreciate the stoic beauty of, say, sewage logistics professionals, all covered in literal sh¡t, butt crack showing, bleeding fingers from stubborn pipes, etc. But if you don't, you're missing an important anatomical part. To entice them into such jobs with money is impoverished. We need to entice them/us into such muck in the same way we entice, say, a field biologist into their (often just as disgusting [⛤]) muck. [⛧] Not uniquely science, but also Taoist or other forms of being in the world that don't fight the flow. [⛤] I had a nightmare the other night where all my friends were trying to get me to eat this white fungus. "It's good for you", they said. "It tastes good", they said. Ugh. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Glen writes:
> [⛤] I had a nightmare the other night where all my friends were trying to get me to eat this white fungus. "It's good for you", they said. "It tastes good", they said. Ugh. I hope it didn't have lots of small dots on its surface. Marcus - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Thankfully, no. It was just white and bumpy, kinda like fine-grained hardened cottage cheese ... which I find disgusting ... like most milk products.
On 4/22/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Glen writes: > >> [⛤] I had a nightmare the other night where all my friends were trying to get me to eat this white fungus. "It's good for you", they said. "It tastes good", they said. Ugh. > > I hope it didn't have lots of small dots on its surface. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Amen. I thought I was the only one that finds cottage cheese revolting.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2021 10:04 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] types of knowledge Thankfully, no. It was just white and bumpy, kinda like fine-grained hardened cottage cheese ... which I find disgusting ... like most milk products. On 4/22/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Glen writes: > >> [⛤] I had a nightmare the other night where all my friends were trying to get me to eat this white fungus. "It's good for you", they said. "It tastes good", they said. Ugh. > > I hope it didn't have lots of small dots on its surface. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Provincials, I got through college eating cottage cheese with nacho dorito chips, and I bought some just last week out of nostalgia. -- rec -- On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 1:04 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: Amen. I thought I was the only one that finds cottage cheese revolting. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by gepr
"They're not trying to *fix* the thing so much as bathing in its beauty."
I love this observation, universals like beauty are grounded by being in the world. "To entice them into such jobs with money is impoverished" While I mostly agree, I cannot help but notice that (by the numbers given in the video) the top plumbers can only hope to make as much as an entry-level web developer, and then there are the externalities... "We need to entice them/us into such muck in the same way we entice, say, a field biologist into their muck." The *muck* isn't simply mud or shit, but an ecosystem of hepatitis and parasites. Also, there is culture. While working as a laborer to a plumber wasn't the worst job I have ever had, the general milieu encouraged violent humor and poor diet, discouraged thinking, and a bordering-on-philosophical acceptance that we live, breathe, and eat shit. It doesn't take long to start to feel the hate creep in, folded into the soul as a consequence of being in the world. Then, there are the strange side-effects of our meritocratic capitalism. It seems to me that the cultural dynamics pressure individuals both toward specialism and away from meritocratic principles in a number of ways. Two, off the top of my head, counterintuitive and interrelated points include[†]: 1. Generalized spoils: Becoming a certified expert in a field occasionally confers expertise *over* individuals without certification in matters outside the scope of practice. A back of the envelope heuristic is employed along the lines of "Well, we know that *this* individual did some hard thinking in one area so *at least* we know they can do hard thinking *generally*. *That* individual we know nothing about, so place your bet accordingly". That this is a common feature of our society suggests that with access to deeper levels of certification comes greater access to agency. Too often, doing "low level" *essential work* bars an individual from being taken seriously. 2. Optimized employment: A career (whatever those were) is a process of canalization. Specialists are often more employable exactly because specific work is needed and throughput is directly measured. An effect, it seems to me, is that valuable generalists are left to roam nomadically between careers, under continuous exposure to forces that undermine a sense of agency, value, or accumulated skill[≃]. As another option, I suppose, generalists survive the optimization through mimicry, the stultifying practice/training of one's self toward myopia. My concern here is that neither with academic work nor manual labor is there much room for the life of the mind. Especially not for a generalist mind. Instead, as youngsters, we are shown futures construed as accolade-valued functions along the real line. The rhetorical image, familiar to everyone here, is that "If you want options you head toward school"[∅]. [†] Please, pardon the touches of autobiographical bitterness. [≃] Specialist-Generalist inequity in the workplace is a place that I would love to see more attention given. [∅] Even at 40, people compulsively give me this advice weekly. |
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
I’d kill for a latte right now. Haven’t had one in a year and a month… and counting. n Nick Thompson https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Provincials, I got through college eating cottage cheese with nacho dorito chips, and I bought some just last week out of nostalgia. -- rec -- On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 1:04 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
I was nowhere near 40. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 1:24 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote: "They're not trying to *fix* the thing so much as bathing in its beauty." - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
I'll meet you for a latte, Nick. Let me know. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 1:34 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
You should go to school, Frank.
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Hey Nick, I'll put your address in my GPS and bring you a latte. What kind? Be specific. On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 1:34 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
I am helping my grandson with 3rd grade, Jon. Man, is it easy--the math is anyway. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 1:46 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote: You should go to school, Frank. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Wait till you get to calculus. Math works that way, you know. Levels.
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
Let them drink Cottage Cheese Lattes!
On 4/22/21 1:45 PM, jon zingale wrote: > You should go to school, Frank. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
It took me awhile to figure out why your post caused me a bit of dissonance. But I think the 2 comments below sharpen it. *Too often*, people take themselves and others too seriously. Once someone's *infected* with the idea that ideas are somehow important, they slip-n-slide into taking abstractions too seriously, including dangerous delusions like "the self", "free will", or "truth".
IDK. I'll always look up to people who do "low level" work more than I will to those who do "high level" work. "High level" work is, literally, unhinged. It can't be taken seriously. And if a few of the "low level" workers are toxic or stubbornly hateful, well, I'll place them right there beside the geniuses who kill themselves or die hating the world because nobody takes them seriously. Good riddance. On 4/22/21 12:23 PM, jon zingale wrote: > The *muck* isn't simply mud or shit, but an ecosystem of hepatitis and > parasites. Also, there is culture. While working as a laborer to a plumber > wasn't the worst job I have ever had, the general milieu encouraged violent > humor and poor diet, discouraged thinking, and a bordering-on-philosophical > acceptance that we live, breathe, and eat shit. It doesn't take long to > start to feel the hate creep in, folded into the soul as a consequence of > being in the world. > > [...] Too often, doing "low level" *essential work* bars an individual > from being taken seriously. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
Jon, he's learning to calculate areas and perimeters of shapes made of squares and squares divided along their diagonals. I can help but think of Stokes' Theorem. On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 2:44 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote: Wait till you get to calculus. Math works that way, you know. Levels. Frank Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by gepr
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including dangerous delusions like "the self", "free will", or "truth". """ Dangerous to whom? I rather like ideas, nature seems full of them. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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So, I don't know if I'll get a chance to log into the zoom today. But, I've written and deleted 2 responses to this (seemingly trolling [⛧]) post. But in listening to this during my shower:
Nonreligious Americans Are A Growing Political Force https://youtu.be/AyRu1OtZutI I've heard you object to both theism and atheism in a way that seems similar to how they're describing the "nones". Despite atheists consistently asserting they simply live "without a conception of god", they really are *mostly* people who have conceived of (many types of) god(s) and rejected them. So, they do think, or have thought, a lot about it. But the nones are, maybe, more the people who simply don't think about it very much, or at all. (And if the prof in the podcast is right about them being less educated and more concerned with making money to survive, etc, then maybe this group doesn't *think* about many "high level" things at all.) To me, any kind of metaphysical belief (or "non-evident" belief) is akin to ideas. God is an idea, one of the most dangerous/debilitating of ideas, actually. But, going back to Kehinde, the Kantian program (or the Enlightenment, even) is just as debilitating (as I alluded to in trashing the categorical imperative last week). And to be clear, just in case your reply was NOT a troll, the ideas, like any powerful tool, are only dangerous to the extent by which they *convince* someone ... the extent to which the idea *traps* or imprisons you. If you find yourself *always* and everywhere referencing a single idea, or using a single tool, say, screwing in light bulbs with your hammer, then you are debilitated ... addicted to that idea. Those of us (not me) who can don and doff ideas easily may not be aware of how debilitating such addictions can be ... like a non-smoker saying "Just quit smoking!" And may not see the danger inherent to ideas. [⛧] Only because it doesn't seem like you've taken any time to understand what "idea" means in the context where I used it. On 4/22/21 3:27 PM, jon zingale wrote: > """ > including dangerous delusions like "the self", "free will", or "truth". > """ > > Dangerous to whom? I rather like ideas, nature seems full of them. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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