The model as I understand it this far begins by considering a room with
a thermostat which regulates the temperature of the room via a mechanism involving a bent piece of metal. Further, there is a dial on the thermostat so that a person that is dissatisfied with the present goals of the thermostat can change those goals by acting on the dial functionally. A list of functions that the thermostat may serve include: keeping the metal bent a certain amount, keeping the room at 70, keeping the room at 80, increasing the entropy of the universe contingently, etc... While some of these functions persist for any perturbation of the list (keeping the metal bent and increasing the entropy of the universe, say), a person in the room may select functionality for less trivial reasons, they wish to be cooler in the room and a rigor-centric thinker may like a way to speak carefully about these less stable, more transient, and functions of human interest. Evolutionary theorists, for instance, may wish to understand how the goals of organisms across generations change as environmental forces act on the class of the organisms possible functions, how the functions vary from generation to generation. I am starting this thread with the intention to develop a language for speaking about control systems like the thermostat and to explore a function-goal distinction. The way I can imagine one getting away with excluding the collection of functions from the collection of goals is that they may actually be of a different type. This isn't to say that we can't wrap goals up in the clothes of a function and thus construe goals as functions, but doing so is a very real operation across categories. It is in this sense that I wish to begin exploring Nick's insistence that function and goal be treated as different. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Not to change anything there, but to add some nuance: It MIGHT be the case that the set of all possible goals and the set of all possible functions is isomorphic. Nick's assertion (100% for evolved systems, tentatively for the vast majority of control systems) is that for any given system we will find that the goal and the function differ. The goal of one system might well be the function of a different system. What are some of the issues we identified in our discussion? This distinction is fairly intuitive for the evolutionary biologists in the group, because the "evolutionary function" is more or less a given. The distinction is less intuitive for many others on the list, because (I hypothesized at the end) the function of our standard-discussion control systems is determined by a third party. For example, that the thermostat functions to "regulate temperature throughout the house" from the perspective of the homeowner. Ultimately we identify both function and goal experimentally, and the two labels develop because two things differentiated experimentally (i.e., for the same reason different chemicals were differentiated by the early experimental chemists). Example: Certain gulls that nest on the ground clear broken eggs away from their nests. Does this serve an anti-parasite function or an anti-predation function? Well, ethologists did a boatload of experiments, and comparison of the behavior of other species, and it showed that the behavior serves the evolutionary function of reducing predation. Closely related species that nest on cliffs, where there are not predators, do not exhibit the behavior. Experimentally thwarting the egg clearing behavior increases predation rates on intact eggs still in the nest. No relation was found with parasite load or loss of eggs or young due to sickness. (Jon rightly pointed out that traits can serve many functions, and that "the function" just a shorthand for something like "we are pretty sure this is the most important one." We could easily pick different examples to show adaptation that optimizes the intersection of various functions.) Birds that, in the past, removed broken egg shells from around their nest, reproduced more successfully than birds that did not, due to egg removal reducing egg-predation incidences, and now all female-birds-in-that-species-with-eggs-in-their-nest exhibit that behavior. What is the goal of the birds? Well, you might think the goal of the birds was to thwart predation. It wasn't that long ago that evolutionary theorists thought it would all be that simple... but there are more experiments. To study the function, we studied what happens to the gull and its eggs and its young. To study goal we study what the gull does. Turns out, the gull doesn't change its behavior based on risk of predation, including whether it sees predators on the regular, whether neighboring nests or its own nest has been hit, or other similar factors (it changes other behaviors, but not this one). When we start seeing what it does or doesn't clear away, we find that it clears all sorts of things away, and lots of those don't affect predation rates. What we end up with, when issues are experimentally investigated in depth is most typically as follows: Members of Species A reliably generate Goal X under certain circumstances. In the current environment B, which we have reason to believe is similar to the ancestral environment in key ways, striving for Goal X produces Outcome Y, where Y promotes survival of the individual and/or the individual's offspring. Thus Y can be presumed to be the evolutionary function. ----------- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist American University - Adjunct Instructor On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote: The model as I understand it this far begins by considering a room with - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
Thank you EricC for the additional nuance and clarifying examples. In
what follows I will attempt to lay out what I (mis)understand, ask questions that I have, and further develop some thoughts. I look forward to corrections and additions. Before getting to the main content of this post, there are some points of confusion for me between the thermostat model and the gull model worth identifying. In the thermostat model, function (wanting the room to be 80 degrees) is founded upon setting the goal of the thermostat system (keeping a metal switch bent) via the dial. On the other hand in the gull model, the function is scoped much tighter to an evolutionary teleology, ie. the function is defined in terms of what is good for the species. That evolutionary theorists find it meaningful to distinguish goals from function, I plan to consider them as different sorts of objects under this investigation. It may be that some construal of the set of goals is isomorphic to some construal of the set of evolutionary functions. Because these concepts are given as different, I wish to preserve the possibility that relevant categories exist where they are non-isomorphic[⇅][₾]. Taking steps in this direction, I think it may be useful to distinguish the structural role that goals and functions play relative to one another from the ways that they differ in their objective content. Goals are tightly-scoped to individual action, in that, the behavior is directed toward the satisfaction of a goal[†]. Goals, seen in this way, come equipped with an associated mathematical function from the collection of an individual's behaviors to an individual's satisfaction. In other words, a behavior is goal-directed when it can be valued in terms of personal satisfaction, satisfying an individual's need: goalEval :: Behavior -> PersonalSatisfaction Functions[⍾], on the other hand, are better interpreted in terms of the species, in that, functional behaviors support the fitness of the species. Evolutionary functions come equipped with a function from the collection of an individual's behaviors to a valuation in terms of the species. functionEval :: Behavior -> SpeciesSatisfaction I consider the above descriptions of goal-directed and functional behavior to be distinctions in the content of the objects themselves, differences of type at the very least. Additionally, there may well be differences wrt the way evolutionary functions relate to goal-directedness, structural difference. Given the thermostat model, it seems that the founded-ness of function upon goal (as alluded to above) suggests that it might be worth characterizing variation in function as contravariant variation in goal. Goals and functions are contingent on the behaviors of the individual. While goals are directly observed in terms of what the organism does (rubbing against an egg satisfies an itch, clearing away shell or fixing the angle of a piece of metal), the function is discovered indirectly. There is quite a bit more to think through here than I have managed to do, but I feel that this observation may be as important to understanding the goal-function relation as the content of the objects themselves. In fact, it can easily account for why we would interpret a goal as being distinct from function, even if the categories of each were in fact the same. Mostly for my own notes, further reading on the importance of this structural distinction can be found here [⁂]. [⇅] Here, by category, I am referring to a mathematical category that is to be understood as preserving some phenomenological notion or other via the notion of isomorphism. Size is the notion preserved by isomorphism in the case of sets. Dimension is the preserved notion in the case of vector spaces. Symmetry is the preserved notion in the case of groups. Closeness is the preserved notion in the case of topological spaces... [₾] For instance and allowing for some hand waving, in treating Goal and Function as the same we may rush to assume the same open set structure on both. Now, a small perturbation of the goals may satisfy the laying hen (by satisfying her itch), but doing so may fail to preserve the hen's laying-evolutionary function to regulate the temperature of her eggs. What would begin as a continuity preserving isomorphism would fail to preserve the topological structure necessary to our theory. [†] For the sake of style and clarity I will attempt to speak more directly than some readers may feel I have the authority to do. Please understand that I understand that I have no expertise here :) [⍾] By goals I understand us to mean something like instrumental goals and by functions something like evolutionary function. Because of the obnoxious overlap with other commonly used referents, I will try to distinguish typographically or explicitly when otherwise ambiguous. [⁂] https://altexploit.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/1992-categories-of-space-and-quantity.pdf |
Jon,
Your RE: line shows me that you understand precisely the nature of the problem, and that you are addressing it head on. I am truly grateful that . However, for some reason, I have been feeling very muddle-brained all week (since I failed the Trump Test), and so fear that I may not be able to meet this post at the level it deserves. I am hoping that Eric and others may be able to fill in for me. Perhaps I may be able to pull myself together and catch up over the weekend. At the risk of doing that thing that Glen says I do, let me pick out and hammer on one point. The function of a structure or behavior can NEVER be the preservation of the species. This is an example of the very principle we are struggling with here. To the extent that function is "that for which nature selects", nature cannot select for the preservation of the species, because, by the nature of species, the species is the repository of all the effects of differential reproduction. For selection to operate at the level of the species, there would have to be one or more competing species, and species, by and large, mostly, do not compete. (That is why they are said to occupy different "niches". ) They eat one another, but that is not competition. Even when they do compete, species do not have the coherence and variety to serve as units of selection. For these same reasons, group selection of any kind is controversial in evolutionary thought, but most everybody agrees that benefit to the species, as such, is not an evolutionary cause. What selection dictates, in the gull case, is not that "gulls survive", but that egg shell removal has arisen because those gulls that remove egg shells are prayed upon by foxes less than those that do not. The survival of gulls is an "unintended consequence" of selection upon eggshell removal. Thanks for pitching in and helping with our understanding of the goal/function relation. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jo? Zingale Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 12:38 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] towards a description of a goal-function relation another attempt to fix the broken threads... -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
I think Jon's post was definitely getting us somewhere. I had a bunch of knee jerk reactions I wanted to let calm down (including the one Nick brought up). I think at this time the most important thing I want to emphasize is that the distinction in question is one found via experimental investigation, not arm chair speculation. It isn't an arbitrary distinction Nick and I "find it meaningful" to make, it is a distinction revealed empirically. Water exposed to electrolysis makes gas. If you arrange your apparatus correctly, you can collect gas separately off each electrode. If you investigate those gasses you find that they behave differently in numerous ways. At that point, it is weird to say that chemists "find it meaningful to distinguish" the two gases. It isn't that saying that is, strictly speaking, incorrect, but it implies an arbitrariness about the whole thing. But this is actually a bigger distinction than that, logically speaking. When ethologists started asking "why is that animal behaving in that fashion?" they used a variety of different methods, and found that some methods produced different types of answers than other methods. Sometimes when that happens, you keep trying to do science and end up with a jumbled mess, but that's not what happened here. Time and time again set-of-methods A converged one answer, while set-of-methods B converged on a different one. And in decades of investigation by a field of Biology recognized well enough to get three people Nobel Prizes, never once did the two sets of methods settle upon the same answer. At that point, the reasonable conclusion is that set-of-methods A is measuring one thing, while set-of-methods B is measuring a different thing.
Looking at the methods and the findings across numerous, numerous studies: Set-of-methods A seems to point at the evolutionary function of the behavior in question, while set-of-methods B seems to point at the immediate goal of the organism. We could imagine living in a world where those were not different things; many early evolutionary theorists thought no such distinction would be found; and even some current evolutionary theorists talk as if no such distinction exists (exasperating those of us steeped in the relevant literature). But, it turns out, the distinction is there. So this is less like the distinction between hydrogen and oxygen, and more like the distinction between PH and surface tension. They are distinguished by fundamentally different methods of investigation. You could imagine a "possible world" in which PH and surface tension perfectly coincided, but that isn't the world we live in. Yes, chemistis "find it meaningful to distinguish" between PH and surface tension, but phrasing it that way suggests the issue is being approached oddly. ----------- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist American University - Adjunct Instructor On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM <[hidden email]> wrote: Jon, - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
In reply to this post by jon zingale
Thank you, Nick and Eric, for the corrections, direction, and help as I grapple with these ideas that you both are so familiar with. Taking a step back, it appears that evolutionary theorists identify function in the epiphenomena arising from underlying mechanisms. What connection the epiphenomena have to the mechanisms can often be elusive, illusory, and hotly debated. Must the mechanisms related to a flowing river give rise to a meaningful[Ȣ] function? Moreover and seemingly less to the point, evolutionary functions are sought after that can be identified as being preserved inter-generationally in some sense. The survival of gulls is an unintended consequence of selection upon eggshell removal. While goals are related to the satisfaction of the individual, the function is not so simply defined. As Nick has pointed out many times in our conversations, function may better be understood in relation to a concept of design[‖]. Perhaps it would be better to imagine function as needing to satisfy the specification of some design[※]. The styrofoam herding robot knows nothing of styrofoam, the bent metal in my thermo- stat knows nothing of comfort, the maple pod knows nothing of the journey or what it means to be distributed evenly, and the gull makes no connection between removing shells and predation. However the theory is to account for function, it will need to be in a language capable of describing side effects as first-class citizens. Eric relates the discovery of a goal-function distinction in evolutionary theory to the discovery of the surface tension-PH distinction in chemistry. Whether intentionally identified or just a side effect of his argument, surface tension and PH are decidedly examples of intensive quantities and so are of a type best characterized by contravariant functors[⁂]. The connections here to contravariant logical notions (pullbacks, sections, equalizers, finite limits, etc...) may have very real manifestations wrt how we must investigate such ideas empirically. Ideas like this are hinted at in Lawvere's work, but also seem to trace back further to thinkers like Clifford Truesdell and others that struggled with rational thermodynamics. From what I gather from those works, there ought to be a tight connection between the logic of a notion and the methods we employ in coming to understand the notion. To the extent that this much may be passable, I hope to find some time this week to work through the possible connection to contravariant functors, to reason further in analogy to free constructions, and extend the analogy to exaptations and spandrels. Again, I invite additional corrections, comments, and nuance. Jon [Ȣ] By meaningful I exactly mean non-arbitrary. I would say that notions like energy and momentum are meaningful to the physicist, for instance, not because they are arbitrary but because they have a privileged place relative to the art and the artisans that work there. The scientific enterprise is a meaning-making enterprise and to say that such-and-such idea is meaningful to the artisan is to emphasize its value relative to the art. [‖] In a parallel post, I attempt to spell out a mathematical construction that I believe can be an example if not a template relating design, epiphenomena, and higher-order structure in mathematics. That this construction can alternatively be interpreted as a post hoc justification, gives a limiting case for not needing a designer to have a design. http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/How-is-a-vector-space-like-an-evolutionary-function-td7597965.html [⁂] Footnoted again, but this time with an added emphasis on page 20: https://altexploit.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/1992-categories-of-space-and-quantity.pdf "By contrast, an intensive quantity-type is a contravariant functor, taking coproducts to products, from a distributive category, but now a functor whose values have a multiplicative structure as well as an additive structure." [※] To act as touchstones, I am adding this list of functions: 1. herd styrofoam (http://www.verena-hafner.de/teaching/didabots.pdf) 2. maintain a comfortable temperature in the house 3. spread seeds far and evenly 4. avoid predation - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Jon, Tomorrow I have to clarify the goal, selection, function, that-for-which-designed muddle I have created. Over the 40 years I wrote about this, I slightly changed my tune, and it’s no fair to you to have you working at this if I don’t have my own language straight. In the meantime, I attach, in case you have not seen it before, the first paper in which I laid it out, which has myriad examples of the distinction, set forth in a very condensed format. Thanks for helping me think about this. Bed, Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jon Zingale Thank you, Nick and Eric, for the corrections, direction, and help as I to be a tight connection between the logic of a notion and the methods we employ in coming to understand the notion. To the extent that this much may be passable, I hope to find some time Jon
http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/How-is-a-vector-space-like-an-evolutionary-function-td7597965.html - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ Ethology and the birth of comparative telenomy.pdf (876K) Download Attachment |
In reply to this post by jon zingale
I'm not a huge fan of larding.... but I'm going to attempt it below. ----------- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist American University - Adjunct Instructor On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:09 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
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