Friam

the racist woo peddler

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gepr

the racist woo peddler

On the heels of the new Lovecraft Country (https://www.hbo.com/lovecraft-country), the surge in the BLM movement (https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/), and our recent swirl around woo, "math envy" etc. I found the below letter, today [⛧].

I think I've described my own fascination with conspiracy theories and those who believe them, falsified scientific ideas (primordial carbon, evolution without selection, etc.), and the occult -- including Mormon apotheosis and the atheistic but metaphorical attachment to Gothic imagery in the Church of Satan. So this letter of an avowed materialist peddling the supernatural is interesting. It's akin to magicians skilled in magic because they don't believe in magic. (Where to put the scare quotes? Is it "magicians" skilled in "magic" but don't believe in magic? Or is it magicians skilled in magic but don't believe in "magic"?) Can we take Lovecraft at his word? Can someone so skilled in supernatural imagery seriously not believe in the supernatural? Can someone steeped so deeply in software engineering jargon really think it's all nonsense? Or is it *necessary* to be deeply entrenched in some domain in *order* to realize it's all nonsense? Are there 2 types of person: 1) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a choir member vs. 2) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a skeptic? Or are there layers and modes. E.g. when Renee' (falsely) describes me as a mathematician at a pub. If the others at the bar know what math *is*, I deny it. If the others don't know what math is, I let it slide.

A black friend of mine asked me just yesterday where I stand on the Confederate battle flag. It's still a difficult question for me. My answer can only be "Do onto others as they would have have you do onto them." So, if the damned flag is offensive to so many, it should be eliminated. But it doesn't offend *me* because I grew up with it. If such imagery is allowed to be layered and modal, don't we risk the systemic problems subtly exemplified by Lovecraft and his occult racism? Don't magicians risk their audience being too stupid to realize that magic isn't real? Don't quantum physicists risk their audience being too stupid to distinguish between woo and true? Don't machine learning experts risk crashing the discipline after the hype cycle?

[⛧] http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/correspondence/91/from-h.-p.-lovecraft-to-clark-ashton-smith-%281925-10-09%29

> 169 Clinton St.
> Brooklyn, N. Y.
>
> Octr. 9, 1925
>
> Dear C A S:—
>
> . . . . . No-I've never read any of the jargon of formal "occultism", since I have always thought that weird writing is more effective if it avoids the hackneyed superstitions & popular cult formulae. I am, indeed, an absolute materialist so far as actual belief goes; with not a shred of credence in any form of supernaturalism—religion, spiritualism, transcendentalism, metempsychosis, or immortality. It may be, though, that I could get the germs of some good ideas from the current patter of the psychic lunatic fringe; & I have frequently thought of getting some of the junk sold at an occultists book shop in 46th St. The trouble is, that it costs too damned much for me in my present state. How much is the brochure you have just been reading? If any of these crack-brained cults have free booklets & "literature" with suggestive descriptive matter, I wouldn't mind having my name on their "sucker lists". The idea that black magic exists in secret today, or that hellish antique rites still survive in obscurity, is one that I have used & shall use again. When you see my new tale The Horror at Red Hook, you will see what use I make of the idea in connexion with the gangs of young loafers & herds of evil-looking foreigners that one sees everywhere in New York.
>
> I have a nest of devil-worshippers & devotees of Lilith in one of the squalid Brooklyn neighbourhoods, & describe the marvels & horrors that ensued when these ignorant inheritors of hideous ceremonies found a learned & initiated man to lead them. I bedeck my tale with incantations copied from the "Magic" article in the 9th edition of the Britannica, but I'd like to draw on less obvious sources if I knew of the right reservoirs to tap. Do you know of any good works on magic & dark mysteries which might furnish fitting ideas & formulae? For example—are there any good translations of any mediaeval necromancers with directions for raising spirits, invoking Lucifer, & all that sort of thing? One hears of lots of names—Albertus Magnus, Eliphas Levi, Nicholas Flamel—&c., but most of us are appallingly ignorant of them. I know I am—but fancy you must be better informed. Don't go to any trouble, but some time I'd be infinitely grateful for a more or less brief list of magical books—ancient & mediaeval preferred—in English or English translations. Meanwhile let me urge you, as I did over a year ago, to read The Witch Cult in Western Europe, by Margaret A. Murray. It ought to be full of inspiration for you.
>
> Most cordially & sincerely yrs,
> HPL

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: the racist woo peddler

Can you play to an audience, without falling prey to it?

That is the deep question to which offers of fame and fortune demand an answer.

Fortunately, I have never had the question put to me.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 12:34 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] the racist woo peddler

On the heels of the new Lovecraft Country (https://www.hbo.com/lovecraft-country), the surge in the BLM movement (https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/), and our recent swirl around woo, "math envy" etc. I found the below letter, today [⛧].

I think I've described my own fascination with conspiracy theories and those who believe them, falsified scientific ideas (primordial carbon, evolution without selection, etc.), and the occult -- including Mormon apotheosis and the atheistic but metaphorical attachment to Gothic imagery in the Church of Satan. So this letter of an avowed materialist peddling the supernatural is interesting. It's akin to magicians skilled in magic because they don't believe in magic. (Where to put the scare quotes? Is it "magicians" skilled in "magic" but don't believe in magic? Or is it magicians skilled in magic but don't believe in "magic"?) Can we take Lovecraft at his word? Can someone so skilled in supernatural imagery seriously not believe in the supernatural? Can someone steeped so deeply in software engineering jargon really think it's all nonsense? Or is it *necessary* to be deeply entrenched in some domain in *order* to realize it's all nonsense? Are there 2 types of person: 1) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a choir member vs. 2) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a skeptic? Or are there layers and modes. E.g. when Renee' (falsely) describes me as a mathematician at a pub. If the others at the bar know what math *is*, I deny it. If the others don't know what math is, I let it slide.

A black friend of mine asked me just yesterday where I stand on the Confederate battle flag. It's still a difficult question for me. My answer can only be "Do onto others as they would have have you do onto them." So, if the damned flag is offensive to so many, it should be eliminated. But it doesn't offend *me* because I grew up with it. If such imagery is allowed to be layered and modal, don't we risk the systemic problems subtly exemplified by Lovecraft and his occult racism? Don't magicians risk their audience being too stupid to realize that magic isn't real? Don't quantum physicists risk their audience being too stupid to distinguish between woo and true? Don't machine learning experts risk crashing the discipline after the hype cycle?

[⛧] http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/correspondence/91/from-h.-p.-lovecraft-to-clark-ashton-smith-%281925-10-09%29

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gepr

Re: the racist woo peddler

Oh yes you have. You've mentioned the 2 camps of evolutionists. You're steeped in Peircian metaphysics, a choir member for the metaphysics whilst denying the "metaphysics" qualifier. You're a methodological pluralist and ideological monist. I'm sure there are more. You're just like the rest of us, dancing that delicate dance between believer and denier.

On 8/19/20 11:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Can you play to an audience, without falling prey to it?
>
> That is the deep question to which offers of fame and fortune demand an answer.
>
> Fortunately, I have never had the question put to me.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: the racist woo peddler

G

I never meant to say I hadn't sold my soul; I meant only to say that I had never been offered anything for it.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 12:59 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the racist woo peddler

Oh yes you have. You've mentioned the 2 camps of evolutionists. You're steeped in Peircian metaphysics, a choir member for the metaphysics whilst denying the "metaphysics" qualifier. You're a methodological pluralist and ideological monist. I'm sure there are more. You're just like the rest of us, dancing that delicate dance between believer and denier.

On 8/19/20 11:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Can you play to an audience, without falling prey to it?
>
> That is the deep question to which offers of fame and fortune demand an answer.
>
> Fortunately, I have never had the question put to me.

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Steve Smith

Re: the racist woo peddler

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

From David Abram's book "Spell of the Sensous":

It is not by sending his awareness out beyond the natural world that the shaman makes contact with the purveyors of life and health, nor by journeying into his personal psyche; rather, it is by propelling his awareness laterally outward into the depths of the landscape at once both sensuous and psychological . . .

put in context by this review:

https://www.cgjungpage.org/learn/articles/book-reviews/876-no-going-back-coming-full-circle-qthe-spell-of-the-sensuousq-by-david-abram

- Steve

BTW... Nick... are you not sure that you do not play to THIS audience (and thereby fall prey to us)?

On 8/19/20 12:49 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Can you play to an audience, without falling prey to it?

That is the deep question to which offers of fame and fortune demand an answer.  

Fortunately, I have never had the question put to me. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 12:34 PM
To: FriAM [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] the racist woo peddler


On the heels of the new Lovecraft Country (https://www.hbo.com/lovecraft-country), the surge in the BLM movement (https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/), and our recent swirl around woo, "math envy" etc. I found the below letter, today [⛧].

I think I've described my own fascination with conspiracy theories and those who believe them, falsified scientific ideas (primordial carbon, evolution without selection, etc.), and the occult -- including Mormon apotheosis and the atheistic but metaphorical attachment to Gothic imagery in the Church of Satan. So this letter of an avowed materialist peddling the supernatural is interesting. It's akin to magicians skilled in magic because they don't believe in magic. (Where to put the scare quotes? Is it "magicians" skilled in "magic" but don't believe in magic? Or is it magicians skilled in magic but don't believe in "magic"?) Can we take Lovecraft at his word? Can someone so skilled in supernatural imagery seriously not believe in the supernatural? Can someone steeped so deeply in software engineering jargon really think it's all nonsense? Or is it *necessary* to be deeply entrenched in some domain in *order* to realize it's all nonsense? Are there 2 types of person: 1) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a choir member vs. 2) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a skeptic? Or are there layers and modes. E.g. when Renee' (falsely) describes me as a mathematician at a pub. If the others at the bar know what math *is*, I deny it. If the others don't know what math is, I let it slide.

A black friend of mine asked me just yesterday where I stand on the Confederate battle flag. It's still a difficult question for me. My answer can only be "Do onto others as they would have have you do onto them." So, if the damned flag is offensive to so many, it should be eliminated. But it doesn't offend *me* because I grew up with it. If such imagery is allowed to be layered and modal, don't we risk the systemic problems subtly exemplified by Lovecraft and his occult racism? Don't magicians risk their audience being too stupid to realize that magic isn't real? Don't quantum physicists risk their audience being too stupid to distinguish between woo and true? Don't machine learning experts risk crashing the discipline after the hype cycle?

[⛧] http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/correspondence/91/from-h.-p.-lovecraft-to-clark-ashton-smith-%281925-10-09%29

169 Clinton St.
Brooklyn, N. Y.

Octr. 9, 1925

Dear C A S:—

. . . . . No-I've never read any of the jargon of formal "occultism", since I have always thought that weird writing is more effective if it avoids the hackneyed superstitions & popular cult formulae. I am, indeed, an absolute materialist so far as actual belief goes; with not a shred of credence in any form of supernaturalism—religion, spiritualism, transcendentalism, metempsychosis, or immortality. It may be, though, that I could get the germs of some good ideas from the current patter of the psychic lunatic fringe; & I have frequently thought of getting some of the junk sold at an occultists book shop in 46th St. The trouble is, that it costs too damned much for me in my present state. How much is the brochure you have just been reading? If any of these crack-brained cults have free booklets & "literature" with suggestive descriptive matter, I wouldn't mind having my name on their "sucker lists". The idea that black magic exists in secret today, or that hellish antique rites still survive in obscurity, is one that I have used & shall use again. When you see my new tale The Horror at Red Hook, you will see what use I make of the idea in connexion with the gangs of young loafers & herds of evil-looking foreigners that one sees everywhere in New York.

I have a nest of devil-worshippers & devotees of Lilith in one of the squalid Brooklyn neighbourhoods, & describe the marvels & horrors that ensued when these ignorant inheritors of hideous ceremonies found a learned & initiated man to lead them. I bedeck my tale with incantations copied from the "Magic" article in the 9th edition of the Britannica, but I'd like to draw on less obvious sources if I knew of the right reservoirs to tap. Do you know of any good works on magic & dark mysteries which might furnish fitting ideas & formulae? For example—are there any good translations of any mediaeval necromancers with directions for raising spirits, invoking Lucifer, & all that sort of thing? One hears of lots of names—Albertus Magnus, Eliphas Levi, Nicholas Flamel—&c., but most of us are appallingly ignorant of them. I know I am—but fancy you must be better informed. Don't go to any trouble, but some time I'd be infinitely grateful for a more or less brief list of magical books—ancient & mediaeval preferred—in English or English translations. Meanwhile let me urge you, as I did over a year ago, to read The Witch Cult in Western Europe, by Margaret A. Murray. It ought to be full of inspiration for you.

Most cordially & sincerely yrs,
HPL




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gepr

Re: the racist woo peddler

The flowery sentiments expressed in that review miss something ... something that del Toro nails here:

https://youtu.be/DGIH2nVRcIQ?t=2585

It's right to talk about all this in the context of (inapt) abstraction. But it's equally right to adopt the tendency to violently abstract if that's what the others around you are doing. I.e. it's a kind of 2nd order violence to avoid abstraction when everyone around you is abstract[ed|ing]. It's *tone deaf* to advocate sensual and psychological extension when everyone around you is abstracted, like some 60 year old complaining about kids playing video games and chatting with their "friends" on Discord. E.g. it's tone deaf to focus on Lovecraft's racism, to *abstract* him out of his time and place and apply 2020 standards to his prejudices, even if those prejudices were already archaic and due to his own abstraction from his world and contemporaries.

On the other hand, it would be tone deaf of me to ignore how utterly offensive and deserving of ridicule those prejudices were and are. The flowery happy talk of that review simply doesn't get at how dissonant the ebb and flow of abstraction <-> concretization can be.

On 8/19/20 5:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> From David Abram's book "Spell of the Sensous":
>
> /It is not by sending his awareness out beyond the natural world that the shaman makes contact with the purveyors of life and health, nor by journeying into his personal psyche; rather, it is by propelling his awareness laterally outward into the depths of the landscape at once both sensuous and psychological . . ./
>
> put in context by this review:
>
> https://www.cgjungpage.org/learn/articles/book-reviews/876-no-going-back-coming-full-circle-qthe-spell-of-the-sensuousq-by-david-abram

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: the racist woo peddler

In reply to this post by gepr

Very cool questions.

One of my best friends teaches Theology at the University of St. Thomas, a solidly Catholic institution where I also taught. He is a overt atheist — except in the classroom — and I once asked him if his atheism came naturally or was developed. His reply, "I earned it with six years of graduate study in theology."

His answer coupled with my own experiences, suggest that your two types of person are right on, especially type 2. In many cases, it is only by immersion that you can gain the knowledge and perspective to see past the superficial to some kind of "inner meaning."

For example: "Mormon apotheosis"— not even much of a 'thing' anymore in the contemporary church, but a big deal in Joseph's and Brigham's day. You engage with the actual theological/philosophical texts it rapidly becomes clear that "becoming God or God-like" is not the point of the teaching. "Life-long learning," "self-mastery," "individual responsibility," and "live in the now" are the essence of the teaching. All of the quotes because the labels are only partially correct. The point is, only by immersion does it become possible that aspiring to godhood is irrelevant.

More interesting perhaps, is study of Hermetic philosophies - famous for their "hidden in plain sight, deep Truths." Take that stuff at face value and you miss insights that were and are important in modern science, e.g. Newtons ideas.. I am reading three books about the C.G. Jung and Wolfgang Pauli correspondence on synchronicity, that are far more 'meaningful' given other readings in both quantum mechanics and hermetic (alchemical) philosophies.

"The truth is out there," and it is always more interesting, more complex, and more problematic that the "choir singers" naive beliefs.

davew

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, at 12:33 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

>
> On the heels of the new Lovecraft Country
> (https://www.hbo.com/lovecraft-country), the surge in the BLM movement
> (https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/),
> and our recent swirl around woo, "math envy" etc. I found the below
> letter, today [⛧].
>
> I think I've described my own fascination with conspiracy theories and
> those who believe them, falsified scientific ideas (primordial carbon,
> evolution without selection, etc.), and the occult -- including Mormon
> apotheosis and the atheistic but metaphorical attachment to Gothic
> imagery in the Church of Satan. So this letter of an avowed materialist
> peddling the supernatural is interesting. It's akin to magicians
> skilled in magic because they don't believe in magic. (Where to put the
> scare quotes? Is it "magicians" skilled in "magic" but don't believe in
> magic? Or is it magicians skilled in magic but don't believe in
> "magic"?) Can we take Lovecraft at his word? Can someone so skilled in
> supernatural imagery seriously not believe in the supernatural? Can
> someone steeped so deeply in software engineering jargon really think
> it's all nonsense? Or is it *necessary* to be deeply entrenched in some
> domain in *order* to realize it's all nonsense? Are there 2 types of
> person: 1) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a choir member vs.
> 2) she who steeps in a domain and comes out a skeptic? Or are there
> layers and modes. E.g. when Renee' (falsely) describes me as a
> mathematician at a pub. If the others at the bar know what math *is*, I
> deny it. If the others don't know what math is, I let it slide.
>
> A black friend of mine asked me just yesterday where I stand on the
> Confederate battle flag. It's still a difficult question for me. My
> answer can only be "Do onto others as they would have have you do onto
> them." So, if the damned flag is offensive to so many, it should be
> eliminated. But it doesn't offend *me* because I grew up with it. If
> such imagery is allowed to be layered and modal, don't we risk the
> systemic problems subtly exemplified by Lovecraft and his occult
> racism? Don't magicians risk their audience being too stupid to realize
> that magic isn't real? Don't quantum physicists risk their audience
> being too stupid to distinguish between woo and true? Don't machine
> learning experts risk crashing the discipline after the hype cycle?
>
> [⛧]
> http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/correspondence/91/from-h.-p.-lovecraft-to-clark-ashton-smith-%281925-10-09%29
> > 169 Clinton St.
> > Brooklyn, N. Y.
> >
> > Octr. 9, 1925
> >
> > Dear C A S:—
> >
> > . . . . . No-I've never read any of the jargon of formal "occultism", since I have always thought that weird writing is more effective if it avoids the hackneyed superstitions & popular cult formulae. I am, indeed, an absolute materialist so far as actual belief goes; with not a shred of credence in any form of supernaturalism—religion, spiritualism, transcendentalism, metempsychosis, or immortality. It may be, though, that I could get the germs of some good ideas from the current patter of the psychic lunatic fringe; & I have frequently thought of getting some of the junk sold at an occultists book shop in 46th St. The trouble is, that it costs too damned much for me in my present state. How much is the brochure you have just been reading? If any of these crack-brained cults have free booklets & "literature" with suggestive descriptive matter, I wouldn't mind having my name on their "sucker lists". The idea that black magic exists in secret today, or that hellish antique rites still survive in obscurity, is one that I have used & shall use again. When you see my new tale The Horror at Red Hook, you will see what use I make of the idea in connexion with the gangs of young loafers & herds of evil-looking foreigners that one sees everywhere in New York.
> >
> > I have a nest of devil-worshippers & devotees of Lilith in one of the squalid Brooklyn neighbourhoods, & describe the marvels & horrors that ensued when these ignorant inheritors of hideous ceremonies found a learned & initiated man to lead them. I bedeck my tale with incantations copied from the "Magic" article in the 9th edition of the Britannica, but I'd like to draw on less obvious sources if I knew of the right reservoirs to tap. Do you know of any good works on magic & dark mysteries which might furnish fitting ideas & formulae? For example—are there any good translations of any mediaeval necromancers with directions for raising spirits, invoking Lucifer, & all that sort of thing? One hears of lots of names—Albertus Magnus, Eliphas Levi, Nicholas Flamel—&c., but most of us are appallingly ignorant of them. I know I am—but fancy you must be better informed. Don't go to any trouble, but some time I'd be infinitely grateful for a more or less brief list of magical books—ancient & mediaeval preferred—in English or English translations. Meanwhile let me urge you, as I did over a year ago, to read The Witch Cult in Western Europe, by Margaret A. Murray. It ought to be full of inspiration for you.
> >
> > Most cordially & sincerely yrs,
> > HPL
>
>
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
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>

Steve Smith

Re: the racist woo peddler

In reply to this post by gepr

On 8/20/20 3:56 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> The flowery sentiments expressed in that review miss something ...

I was pointing at the specifics of Abram's language/conception of "the
Shaman", merely using this review to provide a little context for his
quote, thereby avoiding my own rabbit-hole style attempts to frame and
contextualize. Oh well... another dimension of my hamfisted clumsiness.

> something that del Toro nails here:
>
> https://youtu.be/DGIH2nVRcIQ?t=2585
>
> It's right to talk about all this in the context of (inapt) abstraction. But it's equally right to adopt the tendency to violently abstract if that's what the others around you are doing. I.e. it's a kind of 2nd order violence to avoid abstraction when everyone around you is abstract[ed|ing]. It's *tone deaf* to advocate sensual and psychological extension when everyone around you is abstracted, like some 60 year old complaining about kids playing video games and chatting with their "friends" on Discord. E.g. it's tone deaf to focus on Lovecraft's racism, to *abstract* him out of his time and place and apply 2020 standards to his prejudices, even if those prejudices were already archaic and due to his own abstraction from his world and contemporaries.
>
> On the other hand, it would be tone deaf of me to ignore how utterly offensive and deserving of ridicule those prejudices were and are. The flowery happy talk of that review simply doesn't get at how dissonant the ebb and flow of abstraction <-> concretization can be.

this, however, is very apt to the main thread of the discussion, and I
appreciate your calling out these tensions along the abstraction <->
concretization axis.

The key of my Abram reference was that a Shaman can/must straddle/span
the concrete/abstract from the perspective of the community they (strive
to?) serve.

I think MY constant deference to conceptual metaphor and the way it
aggravates your ???? is probably a reflection of our disparate ways of
trying to relieve (or exploit?) that tension.   I'd be interested if you
recognize this as the dimension of our dissonance or if there are other
significant terms in the characteristic polynomial/eigenvector of our
(mis)communications?

Risking to (possibly) further aggravate this dissonance, I submit that
I believe that the power of conceptual metaphor may well be this precise
feature... that it both concretizes (in the body of the source domain
of the metaphor) and abstracts (in the implicit or explicit
source<->target mapping) at the same time... I can't for an instant
argue that metaphor is not easy to misuse/misapply and perhaps acutely
attracts that (ab)use?   My strongest criticism of metaphor (conceptual
or literary) is that it can be an "attractive nuisance".

Of Babies so beautiful in their ugliness and Bathwater in it's flowery
scents obscuring others,

- Steve

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Steve Smith

Splatter was: the racist woo peddler

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Dave :

Very cool questions.

One of my best friends teaches Theology at the University of St. Thomas, a solidly Catholic institution where I also taught. He is a overt atheist — except in the classroom — and I once asked him if his atheism came naturally or was developed. His reply, "I earned it with six years of graduate study in theology."

His answer coupled with my own experiences, suggest that your two types of person are right on, especially type 2. In many cases, it is only by immersion that you can gain the knowledge and perspective to see past the superficial to some kind of "inner meaning."

For example: "Mormon apotheosis"— not even much of a 'thing' anymore in the contemporary church, but a big deal in Joseph's and Brigham's day. You engage with the actual theological/philosophical texts it rapidly becomes clear that "becoming God or God-like" is not the point of the teaching. "Life-long learning," "self-mastery," "individual responsibility," and "live in the now" are the essence of the teaching. All of the quotes because the labels are only partially correct.

Tangential question: What is your observation of the state of the common Christian or more aptly the common Mormon, and maybe even the common Mormon in rural Utah (as opposed to those in the Logan-SLC-Provo mothership-strip or the St.George/LasVegas banana belt area)? And how all that convolves with Trump populism? You have opined on how Trump somehow broke the Evangelical chokehold on the Republican Party (I still haven't been able to resolve those opine-ions against my own observations)...

The point is, only by immersion does it become possible that aspiring to godhood is irrelevant.

Reminds me acutely of an unattributed(able?) Buddhist phrase I like: "The only difference between before and after enlightenment: after enlightenment, you realize you have always been enlightened"...

More interesting perhaps, is study of Hermetic philosophies - famous for their "hidden in plain sight, deep Truths." Take that stuff at face value and you miss insights that were and are important in modern science, e.g. Newtons ideas.. I am reading three books about the C.G. Jung and Wolfgang Pauli correspondence on synchronicity, that are far more 'meaningful' given other readings in both quantum mechanics and hermetic (alchemical) philosophies.

Your reference had me reach spasmodically to my bookshelf to remind myself of what you might be speaking. Alas, as with my Franklin biography, I have a copy of the Hull translation of Jung/Pauli "Interpretation of Nature and Psyche" SOMEWHERE, but not where I reached. I think I may even have sent you a picture of the spine of this (w/o a jacket cover) shelved with related books a few years ago to make some point or another. I'm now wishing for (someone else to create or find for me) a tool to OCR/recognize books/titles/authors/editions by a bookshelf full of spines photograph. I would think bookstore pickers would already have something like that to find uber-deals in independent/used stores "automagically"...? For me, just to repair (augment/replace?) my faulty associative memory that has been (weakly) overwritten too many times.

6254817

"The truth is out there," and it is always more interesting, more complex, and more problematic that the "choir singers" naive beliefs.

In the spirit of my never-ending tangents: I call this "the choir singing to itself"...

ThreadSplatteringFullyYours,

- SteveS

Prof David West

Re: Splatter was: the racist woo peddler

Trump has problems with Mormons in general. Romney's antipathy to trump epitomizes the "Mormon on the street."

Nevertheless, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, Eastern Oregon, Western Montana, and Western Colorado where you will find large if not majority Mormon populations will vote decisively Republican.

Note, I said Republican, not Trump.

If you would like a long treatise on why this is the case, I would be happy to send directly and not inflict on rest of list. One key, but likely surprising to "outsiders," element is a very self conscious separation of church and state (with one or two exceptions like gay marriage) among both the populace and the church leadership.

davew

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Dave :
Very cool questions.

One of my best friends teaches Theology at the University of St. Thomas, a solidly Catholic institution where I also taught. He is a overt atheist — except in the classroom — and I once asked him if his atheism came naturally or was developed. His reply, "I earned it with six years of graduate study in theology."

His answer coupled with my own experiences, suggest that your two types of person are right on, especially type 2. In many cases, it is only by immersion that you can gain the knowledge and perspective to see past the superficial to some kind of "inner meaning."

For example: "Mormon apotheosis"— not even much of a 'thing' anymore in the contemporary church, but a big deal in Joseph's and Brigham's day. You engage with the actual theological/philosophical texts it rapidly becomes clear that "becoming God or God-like" is not the point of the teaching. "Life-long learning," "self-mastery," "individual responsibility," and "live in the now" are the essence of the teaching. All of the quotes because the labels are only partially correct. 
<begin threadSplatter>
Tangential question: What is your observation of the state of the common Christian or more aptly the common Mormon, and maybe even the common Mormon in rural Utah (as opposed to those in the Logan-SLC-Provo mothership-strip or the St.George/LasVegas banana belt area)? And how all that convolves with Trump populism? You have opined on how Trump somehow broke the Evangelical chokehold on the Republican Party (I still haven't been able to resolve those opine-ions against my own observations)...
The point is, only by immersion does it become possible that aspiring to godhood is irrelevant.
Reminds me acutely of an unattributed(able?) Buddhist phrase I like: "The only difference between before and after enlightenment: after enlightenment, you realize you have always been enlightened"...
More interesting perhaps, is study of Hermetic philosophies - famous for their "hidden in plain sight, deep Truths." Take that stuff at face value and you miss insights that were and are important in modern science, e.g. Newtons ideas.. I am reading three books about the C.G. Jung and Wolfgang Pauli correspondence on synchronicity, that are far more 'meaningful' given other readings in both quantum mechanics and hermetic (alchemical) philosophies.
Your reference had me reach spasmodically to my bookshelf to remind myself of what you might be speaking. Alas, as with my Franklin biography, I have a copy of the Hull translation of Jung/Pauli "Interpretation of Nature and Psyche" SOMEWHERE, but not where I reached. I think I may even have sent you a picture of the spine of this (w/o a jacket cover) shelved with related books a few years ago to make some point or another. I'm now wishing for (someone else to create or find for me) a tool to OCR/recognize books/titles/authors/editions by a bookshelf full of spines photograph. I would think bookstore pickers would already have something like that to find uber-deals in independent/used stores "automagically"...? For me, just to repair (augment/replace?) my faulty associative memory that has been (weakly) overwritten too many times.
"The truth is out there," and it is always more interesting, more complex, and more problematic that the "choir singers" naive beliefs.
In the spirit of my never-ending tangents: I call this "the choir singing to itself"...
ThreadSplatteringFullyYours,
- SteveS

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Steve Smith

Re: Splatter was: the racist woo peddler

Dave -

Trump has problems with Mormons in general.

And they with him? Best I can tell he has problems with everybody but himself and maybe Ivanka.

Romney's antipathy to trump epitomizes the "Mormon on the street."

I find Romney hard to identify as a "man on the street" (or more to the point "backroad"). I grew up among salt-of-the-earth Mormons who looked to their own business of taking care of their families and communities. He doesn't look or act (to me) a bit like any of them. Jeff Flake (of Snow-Flake AZ history) does a little better, but *both* of them remind me a bit too much of the variants I discovered as an adult when I entered (sub)communities where there were

Nevertheless, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, Eastern Oregon, Western Montana, and Western Colorado where you will find large if not majority Mormon populations will vote decisively Republican.

Note, I said Republican, not Trump.

The blatant tolerance (enabling) of Trump in the Republican party, the myriad elected Republican politicians, and uncountable self-identified Republican individuals says absolutely nothing good about "loyal Republicans". Even Conservatism(tm) is overdue for an overhaul. And I would love to see the same for Liberal/Progressives but for less acutely damning reasons.

As indicated elsewhere, I'm contemplating the implications of Republicans re:Democratic-Republic and of Democrats (more-direct-in-principle?) and wonder if you see that being the distinguishing line, or if it is more about Conservative V. Liberal/Progressive? I wonder how your own lexicon presents on these names?

If you would like a long treatise on why this is the case, I would be happy to send directly and not inflict on rest of list.

But of course. I suspect I inflict way too much here in general... but everyone *does* have a <delete> button/key.

<delete!>

One key, but likely surprising to "outsiders," element is a very self conscious separation of church and state (with one or two exceptions like gay marriage) among both the populace and the church leadership.

The Mormons I grew up amongst were very humble and kept their eyes/minds/hands focused on taking care of their own families and communities with a modest, positive, fair connection with the non-Mormon communities/population. My sister had two classmates (out of 20ish) who were Mormon, I had no classmates thus. Those families had no significant involvement in politics in those areas, but when scratched, they were rather proud (IMO) of their "cousins" heavy hitting in the politics of the areas (White Mtns of AZ, St David AZ, etc.) where they were the dominant culture/group. To hear them tell it (though it may have been my projection) the natural progression in the church hierarchy was often reflected in a climb in local politics. On one hand that seems really easy/obvious, on the other I don't know how it squares with your description here?

I dated the eldest daughter (second child) in a Mormon family in HS and we kept a (not-quite-exclusive) long-distance relationship through our first year of college (me Flagstaff, she Provo) and got a strong, albeit cynical, view of both a small but significant subcommunity distant from the mother-ship, and then the heart of the mother-ship (BYU and the SLC Temple). She had no end of problems with the LDS church (mostly based on the behaviour of her father, uncles, and many other adult men of the church, and their wives for turning a blind eye to their hypocrisies and abuses). I talked her into taking me to service (once) which she had been refusing (attendance) since about age 14 and her mother talked me into joining them for their Family Home Evening twice (she held an open invitation, but I worked most evenings and was uncomfortable around her father who apparently was ONLY home for that one evening). I took most of her "stuff" on these topics as less-than-fair-but-not-entirely-baseless.

This was about the time that the issue of black members (very rare in my area) not being allowed to serve as Patrol Leaders in LDS Boy Scout programs as an extension to the whole Mark of Cain thing which was overturned by "revalation" in 1978. I don't know if the BSA/LDS intersection is in any way a fair parallel with LDS/UT or LDS/USA, but if it is, it did not look good... the LDS church got very much into the BSA business in those days. Later when I encountered communities where the LDS church was NOT a minority... it felt/looked to me like they got up in *all* the business around them, personal, commercial, and political. And I found my take on that to be a LOT less critical than the average "gentile" ("philistine"?) living in those communities.

It doesn't surprise (or offend) me that the LDS church leans far Right/Conservative/Republican... but allowing Trump to infiltrate and co-opt their party is hard for me to resolve against all but the worst caricatures of what I once knew the Mormon/LDS heritage to be about. I am glad Romney could stand up (a day late and a dollar short) to Trump a little and Jeff Flake could at least "back out of the room" when he realized that Trump "owned" his party. But if (when) the regions you describe as primarily LDS (and I concur) re-affirm their confidence-in/approval-of Trump in November, it does significant damage to my opinion of what I once knew as a thoughtful, grounded, moral (if oftentimes flawed) population, up to many issues I disagree with them on. It makes them look like "tools" of the most ridiculous "Tool" of all time. But then it seems like we are a "Nation of Tools" these days... virtually everyone in my family of origin voted Trump 2016 for reasons that were out of reach to me... most are now pretending that "they never really liked/trusted him"... go figure.

Meanwhile, I applaud your decision to work at a convenience/fuel-stop in these times. I often imagine I really need to push myself into a similar position, at least for a while. I also very much appreciate your participation and style in this group which is somewhat fundamentally counter-aligned with many of your positions... I doubt you are the only counter-progressive-cultural element here, but one of the few who make many waves.

grumble,

- Steve