Friam

the power of metaphor.

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thompnickson2

the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s. Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it. It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

thompnickson2

Re: the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car. But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision. That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you. Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

thompnickson2

Re: the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”. Feeling means offering vulnerability. The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that. They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

thompnickson2

Re: the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy. Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it? I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

thompnickson2

Re: the power of metaphor.

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

“Pretend to be their friends”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/12/the-humane-interrogation-technique-that-works-much-better-than-torture/383698/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:22 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

thompnickson2

Re: the power of metaphor.

If I were going to pretend to be your friend, I would listen to the part of myself that wants to be your friend while keeping the other bits active and observant. It begins with admitting that I am never one thing, whole. Beware the myth of the unitary human.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

“Pretend to be their friends”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/12/the-humane-interrogation-technique-that-works-much-better-than-torture/383698/

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

Exactly: Given a fixed budget of bits (hijacking your word as a information theory word for my purposes), should the bits go into maximizing sensitivity or into the mechanisms that process the signal and control actions based on the signal? If there is very little bit budget given for the control mechanisms, then a high amplitude/variance signal could blast the executive process into an unknown state. Sometimes one needs to maximize sensitivity at all costs, like in understanding a troubled family member. In other situations, attention needs to be put elsewhere.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:31 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

“Pretend to be their friends”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/12/the-humane-interrogation-technique-that-works-much-better-than-torture/383698/

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way. Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Prof David West

Re: the power of metaphor.

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that waterboarding was the way to go.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.   Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

The feeling must at least be bounded – it is simulated and controlled. One is trying to get the upper hand.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.   Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: the power of metaphor.

One of the senior psychoanalysts in Pittsburgh once said to my wife that nothing is sadder than the last act of a narcissist.

"Act" as a metaphor for part of a play. I will be interested to learn whether I will have empathy for Trump during his last act.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 3:40 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

The feeling must at least be bounded – it is simulated and controlled.   One is trying to get the upper hand.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that waterboarding was the way to go.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.   Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Steve Smith

Re: the power of metaphor.

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Dave

It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that waterboarding was the way to go.

And I suspect "good torturer/bad torturer" works is more effective than either approach by itself?

Steve

Steve Smith

Re: the power of metaphor.

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Kinda like the villain in a melodrama that spends the entire "last act" dying dramatically.

On 1/7/21 3:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

One of the senior psychoanalysts in Pittsburgh once said to my wife that nothing is sadder than the last act of a narcissist.

"Act" as a metaphor for part of a play. I will be interested to learn whether I will have empathy for Trump during his last act.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 3:40 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

The feeling must at least be bounded – it is simulated and controlled.   One is trying to get the upper hand.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that waterboarding was the way to go.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.   Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

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un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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David Eric Smith

Re: the power of metaphor.

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

This is a gem, Marcus,

Also in its brevity. But if you could add a few more lines to it, could somebody maybe put it on Cruz’s senator homepage in place of whatever is there right now? Would be a great public service.

Would the Russians be willing to rent out one-time access through their backdoors, for a good cause?

It would take more work than it would be worth to replace the content on the whole site.

Eric

On Jan 7, 2021, at 12:04 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s. Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it. It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the power of metaphor.

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Frank, you make it sound like empathy is as delicate as reaching a grandparent in a séance. To me it is like anticipating a melody. Once I know how it goes I don’t need to keep listening to it.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

One of the senior psychoanalysts in Pittsburgh once said to my wife that nothing is sadder than the last act of a narcissist.

"Act" as a metaphor for part of a play. I will be interested to learn whether I will have empathy for Trump during his last act.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 3:40 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

The feeling must at least be bounded – it is simulated and controlled.   One is trying to get the upper hand.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that waterboarding was the way to go.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.   Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: the power of metaphor.

I am anticipating how I would feel if I saw Trump when he is desperately afraid as he suffers during his final illness and cries that it is unfair that he has to die given how rich, talented ... whatever... he is. Will I remember how much I detested him? Or would I feel sad for him. The latter involves what I mean by "empathy".

I say "would" rather that "will" because I doubt that I will be aware of his suffering. After all, I am older than he is. I am thinner however.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:52 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank, you make it sound like empathy is as delicate as reaching a grandparent in a séance.   To me it is like anticipating a melody.   Once I know how it goes I don’t need to keep listening to it.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

One of the senior psychoanalysts in Pittsburgh once said to my wife that nothing is sadder than the last act of a narcissist.

"Act" as a metaphor for part of a play. I will be interested to learn whether I will have empathy for Trump during his last act.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 3:40 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

The feeling must at least be bounded – it is simulated and controlled.   One is trying to get the upper hand.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that waterboarding was the way to go.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.   Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in many situations.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Does seeing imply visual vulnerability? Hearing imply auditory vulnerability? Well, I suppose. Any time we make ourselves open to information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable. But aren’t we also impowered? Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value is firmly in the off position.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we agree. If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and stupid and cloying.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact in luxurious detail. That’s suicidal. I should step on the brakes or the gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete. No, take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing these people from being dangerous.

I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Marcus,

You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing pointedness, without empathy. Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of perception.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation? Did he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it? Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no objective distance he gets from his nihilism. There’s just always the next thing he has to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered in Vaseline” . Will I ever get that image out of my head?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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