the power of metaphor.
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Maybe I can use observations of the details of his dying remarks and behaviors to give him other real or fabricated information that will make him feel even more fear. If I am cruel in a hidden way, and my model was predictive, how is
that different from empathy? If I can choose a mode where I feel and another mode where I don’t feel, and I can tune that to a target person, is that not a superset of empathy? Or is it important the involuntary emotional experience occurs, and that
it needs to be rationalized after it happens – that you then remember how you detested him. It seems to say that you or people that believe in this definition of empathy believe that the emotion is real and the cognitive interpretation of prior events in
less real. From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of
Frank Wimberly I am anticipating how I would feel if I saw Trump when he is desperately afraid as he suffers during his final illness and cries that it is unfair that he has to die given how rich, talented ... whatever... he is. Will I remember how much
I detested him? Or would I feel sad for him. The latter involves what I mean by "empathy". I say "would" rather that "will" because I doubt that I will be aware of his suffering. After all, I am older than he is. I am thinner however. --- On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:52 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
Frank -
> I am anticipating how I would feel if I saw Trump when he is > desperately afraid as he suffers during his final illness and cries > that it is unfair that he has to die given how rich, talented ... > whatever... he is. Will I remember how much I detested him? Or would > I feel sad for him. The latter involves what I mean by "empathy". I don't have any problem allowing my imaginarium to include recognizing the dark misery that Trump may experience down deep inside (if he ever looks that direction), and from the general record of who he was as a child into adulthood, I can see (some of) how he wandered/retreated/charged down the path that lead him to where he is today. I doubt he will hang himself in the oval office (wouldn't that be a sight?) like Epstein did (maybe) in his own cell. I doubt anyone in the administration has the physical/tactical/moral capability to pull off staging such a thing (nod to the possibility that Epstein was "helped"). That does not mean that I "forgive" or in any way "bless" any of his behaviour, possibly since he was about 8 years old, if then. Such an act (with or without "help") feels significantly more likely than him resigning gracefully. I am sympathetic with Marcus' (deliberate?) conflation between allowing for deep, genuine empathy, and allowing the experience to lead me to enable the worst behaviours of the subject of my empathy. My empathy for Trump is much less well informed (yes, Nick, I said "informed") than my ire. I may have "cut him some slack" (I think that is a bull/bronco riding metaphoricaldomain) early on out of empathy under the guise of expedience, but I think I'm well beyond that (some years now)? > > I say "would" rather that "will" because I doubt that I will be aware > of his suffering. After all, I am older than he is. I am thinner > however. I've always thought Tennis was more "heart healthy" than Golf as "country-club" sports go... but I think more (sleazy?) deals are made on the golf course. I think you made a better choice. I hope that you and Biden both outlive his first term, and get to live in the "interesting times" implied for the 2024 cycle. - Steve - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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S
It was guh-RATE to see you on vFRIAM today. N Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 11:21 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor. Frank - > I am anticipating how I would feel if I saw Trump when he is > desperately afraid as he suffers during his final illness and cries > that it is unfair that he has to die given how rich, talented ... > whatever... he is. Will I remember how much I detested him? Or would > I feel sad for him. The latter involves what I mean by "empathy". I don't have any problem allowing my imaginarium to include recognizing the dark misery that Trump may experience down deep inside (if he ever looks that direction), and from the general record of who he was as a child into adulthood, I can see (some of) how he wandered/retreated/charged down the path that lead him to where he is today. I doubt he will hang himself in the oval office (wouldn't that be a sight?) like Epstein did (maybe) in his own cell. I doubt anyone in the administration has the physical/tactical/moral capability to pull off staging such a thing (nod to the possibility that Epstein was "helped"). That does not mean that I "forgive" or in any way "bless" any of his behaviour, possibly since he was about 8 years old, if then. Such an act (with or without "help") feels significantly more likely than him resigning gracefully. I am sympathetic with Marcus' (deliberate?) conflation between allowing for deep, genuine empathy, and allowing the experience to lead me to enable the worst behaviours of the subject of my empathy. My empathy for Trump is much less well informed (yes, Nick, I said "informed") than my ire. I may have "cut him some slack" (I think that is a bull/bronco riding metaphoricaldomain) early on out of empathy under the guise of expedience, but I think I'm well beyond that (some years now)? > > I say "would" rather that "will" because I doubt that I will be aware > of his suffering. After all, I am older than he is. I am thinner > however. I've always thought Tennis was more "heart healthy" than Golf as "country-club" sports go... but I think more (sleazy?) deals are made on the golf course. I think you made a better choice. I hope that you and Biden both outlive his first term, and get to live in the "interesting times" implied for the 2024 cycle. - Steve - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Nick -
> S > > It was guh-RATE to see you on vFRIAM today. > > N Sorry to "guh-RATE" on your nerves (just kidding, exercising my "manly art of deliberate misunderstanding")... but glad to see everyone (if but for a moment). I had *hoped* Glen was going to run the experiment he suggested earlier this week (even though I didn't fully understanding what he was proposing). I was disappointed that the bulk of the conversation seemed to be about how we all failed to different degrees to obtain fame and fortune. I left that argument (with myself) for the most part when I was about 12 and my ego was forming. I won't claim that I haven't taken minor grabs for public/private approval and for money off and on, and that I haven't felt resentful when those didn't come as easily to me as I hoped (and/or neglected to recognize/acknowledge the bits of both that fell into my lap). I decided early in my life (12ish?) that I needed to (at least try) to parlay any natural talents I had (like being tall) and cultivating those I might have been weak in toward the betterment of myself and (expanding concentric waves of priority) those around me. That lead me to things like rejecting the idea of conscription (if not war itself) and lead me to be a vegetarian-of-conscience as the expanding circles began to include higher life forms (those with faces or known to play, as some vegetarians offer). What I was claiming was that the ego-building/salving pursuit of fame and fortune IS (part of?) the problem. I was also (virtue-signalling?) trying to substitute something like pursuit of fame/fortune with pursuit of meaningful and important work, but choked on my own awareness that *most* of the things I am ashamed of in my life were a result of my *effectivity* on those topics. I used Mutual Assured Destruction as one of the goals I helped participate in (joined LANL in 1980 with that in mind). I've pursued other "great things" for the "greater good" only to recognize the myriad unintended (by me anyway) consequences. I don't know where this line of argument fits next to the one you were all on when I joined, I like to think it is somehow in opposition or at least complementary. Sorry I had to go before I could say more of this in person... - Steve > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [hidden email] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 11:21 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor. > > Frank - >> I am anticipating how I would feel if I saw Trump when he is >> desperately afraid as he suffers during his final illness and cries >> that it is unfair that he has to die given how rich, talented ... >> whatever... he is. Will I remember how much I detested him? Or would >> I feel sad for him. The latter involves what I mean by "empathy". > I don't have any problem allowing my imaginarium to include recognizing the dark misery that Trump may experience down deep inside (if he ever looks that direction), and from the general record of who he was as a child into adulthood, I can see (some of) how he wandered/retreated/charged down the path that lead him to where he is today. I doubt he will hang himself in the oval office (wouldn't that be a sight?) like Epstein did (maybe) in his own cell. I doubt anyone in the administration has the physical/tactical/moral capability to pull off staging such a thing (nod to the possibility that Epstein was "helped"). That does not mean that I "forgive" or in any way "bless" > any of his behaviour, possibly since he was about 8 years old, if then. Such an act (with or without "help") feels significantly more likely than him resigning gracefully. > > I am sympathetic with Marcus' (deliberate?) conflation between allowing for deep, genuine empathy, and allowing the experience to lead me to enable the worst behaviours of the subject of my empathy. My empathy for Trump is much less well informed (yes, Nick, I said "informed") than my ire. I may have "cut him some slack" (I think that is a bull/bronco riding metaphoricaldomain) early on out of empathy under the guise of expedience, but I think I'm well beyond that (some years now)? > >> I say "would" rather that "will" because I doubt that I will be aware >> of his suffering. After all, I am older than he is. I am thinner >> however. > I've always thought Tennis was more "heart healthy" than Golf as "country-club" sports go... but I think more (sleazy?) deals are made on the golf course. I think you made a better choice. I hope that you and Biden both outlive his first term, and get to live in the "interesting times" implied for the 2024 cycle. > > - Steve > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Yeah, sorry about that. My plans were interrupted. But you were the only one who expressed any interest in the experiment anyway. RCV can be complicated. See: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3K2g6lIQMWsUEJPbUhnOG9JQ3M/view
In particular, the options for how you handle ties is interesting when there are a small number of voters. The process used for the recent Olympia city council seat was sensitive to that (as well as some other things). If you check out this app, you can see some of the moving parts: https://github.com/BrightSpots/rcv If Joe Sixpack can't understand Pence's ceremonial role in counting EC votes, there's no way he'll understand RCV. *And* there's often a counter-intuitive result from the voting. So if we have umpteen allegations in our current election system, we'd have umpteen^umpteen allegations with an RCV system. [sigh] It's too bad stupidity isn't painful. On 1/8/21 12:24 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > I had *hoped* Glen was going to run the experiment > he suggested earlier this week (even though I didn't fully understanding > what he was proposing). -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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