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progress v. drift

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glen ep ropella

progress v. drift

I'll attempt to identify the core of the recent Mathematics and XYZ
thread, going back to Nick's original kernel:

Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> All, One of the running arguments I have with one of my favorite
> colleagues here in Santa Fe is about whether Mathematics is (or
> isn't) different from all other intellectual enterprises, such as
> psychology or philosophy. in that, unlike them, mathematics "adds
> up," in the long run. Contrary to psychologists and philosophers like
> me, who are besotted with ephemeral traditions and ideologies, and
> keep changing the rules of the game, mathematicians have built a
> structure that is not subject to vicissitudes and whims of
> intellectual history. (I hope I have represented this argument
> fairly.) Although I have tried to give him as little comfort as
> possible, I confess that I have been impressed more and more by this
> argument as I continue to read accessible works on the history of
> mathematics.

The core of the question came up several times. In essence, it's about
whether or not progress (or accumulation) is illusory or objectively
real, and whether math exhibits progress more obviously than other domains.

We fleshed out the question by claiming and counter-claiming about
whether math is a purely social construct or whether it is (and how it
might be) hooked directly to reality, even to the extent that reality
may be mathematical.

So, there we are. Was anything achieved in this meandering thread?
Most certainly. Are the achievements quantifiable? Most definitely not.

In any case, I feel the pressure to shut up for awhile. [grin] So, I
will comply.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com

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Owen Densmore

Re: progress v. drift

Administrator

Holy cow Glen, that's GREAT, thanks.

Maybe we should start a tradition of summarizing like this when
threads get rather long. Then Nick can put them into the wiki?

-- Owen

On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:08 AM, glen e. p. ropella wrote:

>
> I'll attempt to identify the core of the recent Mathematics and XYZ
> thread, going back to Nick's original kernel:
>
> Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>> All, One of the running arguments I have with one of my favorite
>> colleagues here in Santa Fe is about whether Mathematics is (or
>> isn't) different from all other intellectual enterprises, such as
>> psychology or philosophy. in that, unlike them, mathematics "adds
>> up," in the long run. Contrary to psychologists and philosophers like
>> me, who are besotted with ephemeral traditions and ideologies, and
>> keep changing the rules of the game, mathematicians have built a
>> structure that is not subject to vicissitudes and whims of
>> intellectual history. (I hope I have represented this argument
>> fairly.) Although I have tried to give him as little comfort as
>> possible, I confess that I have been impressed more and more by this
>> argument as I continue to read accessible works on the history of
>> mathematics.
>
> The core of the question came up several times. In essence, it's
> about
> whether or not progress (or accumulation) is illusory or objectively
> real, and whether math exhibits progress more obviously than other
> domains.
>
> We fleshed out the question by claiming and counter-claiming about
> whether math is a purely social construct or whether it is (and how it
> might be) hooked directly to reality, even to the extent that reality
> may be mathematical.
>
> So, there we are. Was anything achieved in this meandering thread?
> Most certainly. Are the achievements quantifiable? Most definitely
> not.
>
> In any case, I feel the pressure to shut up for awhile. [grin] So, I
> will comply.
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: progress v. drift

Thanks, Glen.

I assume this summary covers the "Mentalism and Calculas" thread as well?

;-}

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Holy cow Glen, that's GREAT, thanks.

Maybe we should start a tradition of summarizing like this when
threads get rather long. Then Nick can put them into the wiki?

-- Owen

On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:08 AM, glen e. p. ropella wrote:

>
> I'll attempt to identify the core of the recent Mathematics and XYZ
> thread, going back to Nick's original kernel:
>
> Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>> All, One of the running arguments I have with one of my favorite
>> colleagues here in Santa Fe is about whether Mathematics is (or
>> isn't) different from all other intellectual enterprises, such as
>> psychology or philosophy. in that, unlike them, mathematics "adds
>> up," in the long run. Contrary to psychologists and philosophers like
>> me, who are besotted with ephemeral traditions and ideologies, and
>> keep changing the rules of the game, mathematicians have built a
>> structure that is not subject to vicissitudes and whims of
>> intellectual history. (I hope I have represented this argument
>> fairly.) Although I have tried to give him as little comfort as
>> possible, I confess that I have been impressed more and more by this
>> argument as I continue to read accessible works on the history of
>> mathematics.
>
> The core of the question came up several times. In essence, it's
> about
> whether or not progress (or accumulation) is illusory or objectively
> real, and whether math exhibits progress more obviously than other
> domains.
>
> We fleshed out the question by claiming and counter-claiming about
> whether math is a purely social construct or whether it is (and how it
> might be) hooked directly to reality, even to the extent that reality
> may be mathematical.
>
> So, there we are. Was anything achieved in this meandering thread?
> Most certainly. Are the achievements quantifiable? Most definitely
> not.
>
> In any case, I feel the pressure to shut up for awhile. [grin] So, I
> will comply.
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

505-670-8195 - Cell

glen ep ropella

Re: progress v. drift

Douglas Roberts wrote:
> I assume this summary covers the "Mentalism and Calculas" thread as well?

Allright. I said I'd shut up; but you asked a direct question. [grin]

As Marcus points out, "thread" is not really a good word for what
happens on a healthy mailing list. It's more like a stretched out clump
of cotton than any kind of thread or noodle. When the scale is coarse,
you can see the cotton as a clump. When the scale is fine, you see all
these fibers running hither and to.

So, kindasortamaybe, yes, the summary covers some of the Mentalism and
Calculus posts. But, mostly, no, the summary doesn't cover those posts
because those were largely about "category error" and cross-polination
between lexicons, whereas the Mathematics and XYZ clump was about how
math is or isn't distinct as a human effort.

Then again, that's just my long-winded opinion.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: progress v. drift

Don't mind me: I'm just trying out for the position of local curmudgeon (Owen's been slacking in this regard lately).

;-}

--Doug

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:58 AM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Douglas Roberts wrote:
> I assume this summary covers the "Mentalism and Calculas" thread as well?

Allright. I said I'd shut up; but you asked a direct question. [grin]

As Marcus points out, "thread" is not really a good word for what
happens on a healthy mailing list. It's more like a stretched out clump
of cotton than any kind of thread or noodle. When the scale is coarse,
you can see the cotton as a clump. When the scale is fine, you see all
these fibers running hither and to.

So, kindasortamaybe, yes, the summary covers some of the Mentalism and
Calculus posts. But, mostly, no, the summary doesn't cover those posts
because those were largely about "category error" and cross-polination
between lexicons, whereas the Mathematics and XYZ clump was about how
math is or isn't distinct as a human effort.

Then again, that's just my long-winded opinion.

--

glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Paul Paryski

Re: progress v. drift

In reply to this post by glen ep ropella

Again (I hit the pad on my new Macbook and it sent out the e before it was finished.)
Nick I believe that math, as is the case with any intellectual tool, has evolved and changed. For example: the development of calculus or algorithms or imaginary numbers....
Paul

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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org