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"higher" education

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Prof David West

"higher" education

Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: "higher" education

I don't know if my attitudes have an objective basis, or if I am just envious of folks whose degrees are from Ivy League schools. My father had only a sixth grade education and my mother eighth grade, and Dad never earned over two dollars an hour, so an expensive University was out of the question. So I went to Kansas State University in the 1970s and early 1980s and got what I thought was an adequate education (BS in Biology and MS in Computer Science) spread out over nearly ten years. In-state tuition, no doubt subsidized by the State of Kansas, was between $500 and $1000 per semester. Working as a software engineer, my salary was always somewhere in the mid range, and I didn't mind. I think my career was more rewarding to me than if I had incurred huge debts at a more top-tier University in order to get higher paying jobs. I guess my point is that higher education could be a whole lot more affordable without throwing out the face-to-face model entirely.

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "higher" education

I don't know about Harvard but at Carnegie Mellon, which has been called "one of the new Ivies", admissions decisions are made without regard to financial factors. Once admitted financial aid is granted with the goal of not impacting the family's lifestyle excessively.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "higher" education

New Ivies:

https://www.newsweek.com/americas-25-new-elite-ivies-108771

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 12:39 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't know about Harvard but at Carnegie Mellon, which has been called "one of the new Ivies", admissions decisions are made without regard to financial factors. Once admitted financial aid is granted with the goal of not impacting the family's lifestyle excessively.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

cody dooderson

Re: "higher" education

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Here is a nice talk to the graduates of Harvard https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1001&v=jSn_QW9FFiI&feature=emb_logo.

Cody Smith

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 12:21 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't know if my attitudes have an objective basis, or if I am just envious of folks whose degrees are from Ivy League schools. My father had only a sixth grade education and my mother eighth grade, and Dad never earned over two dollars an hour, so an expensive University was out of the question. So I went to Kansas State University in the 1970s and early 1980s and got what I thought was an adequate education (BS in Biology and MS in Computer Science) spread out over nearly ten years. In-state tuition, no doubt subsidized by the State of Kansas, was between $500 and $1000 per semester. Working as a software engineer, my salary was always somewhere in the mid range, and I didn't mind. I think my career was more rewarding to me than if I had incurred huge debts at a more top-tier University in order to get higher paying jobs. I guess my point is that higher education could be a whole lot more affordable without throwing out the face-to-face model entirely.

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "higher" education

Excellent, Cody.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 12:44 PM cody dooderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here is a nice talk to the graduates of Harvard https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1001&v=jSn_QW9FFiI&feature=emb_logo.

Cody Smith

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 12:21 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't know if my attitudes have an objective basis, or if I am just envious of folks whose degrees are from Ivy League schools. My father had only a sixth grade education and my mother eighth grade, and Dad never earned over two dollars an hour, so an expensive University was out of the question. So I went to Kansas State University in the 1970s and early 1980s and got what I thought was an adequate education (BS in Biology and MS in Computer Science) spread out over nearly ten years. In-state tuition, no doubt subsidized by the State of Kansas, was between $500 and $1000 per semester. Working as a software engineer, my salary was always somewhere in the mid range, and I didn't mind. I think my career was more rewarding to me than if I had incurred huge debts at a more top-tier University in order to get higher paying jobs. I guess my point is that higher education could be a whole lot more affordable without throwing out the face-to-face model entirely.

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Dean Gerber

Re: "higher" education

In reply to this post by cody dooderson

Thanks for the link Cody. That was a fine talk. Dean Gerber

On Friday, May 29, 2020, 12:44:05 PM MDT, cody dooderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here is a nice talk to the graduates of Harvard https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1001&v=jSn_QW9FFiI&feature=emb_logo.

Cody Smith

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 12:21 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't know if my attitudes have an objective basis, or if I am just envious of folks whose degrees are from Ivy League schools. My father had only a sixth grade education and my mother eighth grade, and Dad never earned over two dollars an hour, so an expensive University was out of the question. So I went to Kansas State University in the 1970s and early 1980s and got what I thought was an adequate education (BS in Biology and MS in Computer Science) spread out over nearly ten years. In-state tuition, no doubt subsidized by the State of Kansas, was between $500 and $1000 per semester. Working as a software engineer, my salary was always somewhere in the mid range, and I didn't mind. I think my career was more rewarding to me than if I had incurred huge debts at a more top-tier University in order to get higher paying jobs. I guess my point is that higher education could be a whole lot more affordable without throwing out the face-to-face model entirely.

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 10:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "higher" education

In reply to this post by Prof David West

The mean household assets of the 1% exceeds $10 million. My wife and her brother both graduated from Harvard. Their parents paid for their expenses out-of-pocket. My in-laws were nowhere near the 1%. My FIL was an attorney and a member of Governor Kerner's Human Rights Commission. My wife's mother was a freelance writer who had published a couple of books and many articles in popular magazines. Both my wife and my brother-in-law received excellent educations. Yes, Nick, they were well-educated before they got to Harvard.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Steve Smith

Re: "higher" education

My daughter chose (with my strong advice) to get her undergrad from UCSC instead of UCB (accepted but the academic scholarships she was offered would have left her with a $50K debt after 4 years). She was shooting for an MD at that point, and entering Med School with that kind of debt seemed ridiculous... she ended up doing a PhD at UNM (Molecular Bio) with a fully funded GRA position instead of UCB (where she would have incurred similar debts in SPITE of a GRA offer there also). She went into the workforce with $0 student debt very intentionally.

She feels as well prepared as any of her peers (and more dedicated than many) in her field (virology, flavi-virus specialty), yet feels mildly excluded from some circles of IVY or neoIVY or ??? similarly elite school alumni. There is a good-ole-boys-and-girls club in her world (or her apprehension of her world) which has her being treated as "less than".

Maybe this isn't real, or it is latent. But she lives it viscerally, especially during funding cycles.

On 5/29/20 4:37 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

The mean household assets of the 1% exceeds $10 million. My wife and her brother both graduated from Harvard. Their parents paid for their expenses out-of-pocket. My in-laws were nowhere near the 1%. My FIL was an attorney and a member of Governor Kerner's Human Rights Commission. My wife's mother was a freelance writer who had published a couple of books and many articles in popular magazines. Both my wife and my brother-in-law received excellent educations. Yes, Nick, they were well-educated before they got to Harvard.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "higher" education

Steve, I am sure that my brother-in-law, who got his MD at Harvard after his undergraduate study there would enjoy talking to your daughter and would treat her as a full equal. I've never seen him acting superior to a colleague based on what school they went to. Same for my wife.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 4:51 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

My daughter chose (with my strong advice) to get her undergrad from UCSC instead of UCB (accepted but the academic scholarships she was offered would have left her with a $50K debt after 4 years).   She was shooting for an MD at that point, and entering Med School with that kind of debt seemed ridiculous... she ended up doing a PhD at UNM (Molecular Bio) with a fully funded GRA position instead of UCB (where she would have incurred similar debts in SPITE of a GRA offer there also). She went into the workforce with $0 student debt very intentionally.

She feels as well prepared as any of her peers (and more dedicated than many) in her field (virology, flavi-virus specialty), yet feels mildly excluded from some circles of IVY or neoIVY or ??? similarly elite school alumni.   There is a good-ole-boys-and-girls club in her world (or her apprehension of her world) which has her being treated as "less than".

Maybe this isn't real, or it is latent.   But she lives it viscerally, especially during funding cycles.

On 5/29/20 4:37 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
The mean household assets of the 1% exceeds $10 million. My wife and her brother both graduated from Harvard. Their parents paid for their expenses out-of-pocket. My in-laws were nowhere near the 1%. My FIL was an attorney and a member of Governor Kerner's Human Rights Commission. My wife's mother was a freelance writer who had published a couple of books and many articles in popular magazines. Both my wife and my brother-in-law received excellent educations. Yes, Nick, they were well-educated before they got to Harvard.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:08 AM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scott Galloway (professor at Stern School of business and supposed authority) on universities post COVID.

Fifty percent of the investment in prestige university education is for 'certification' — degree that signals your lifetime earnings. The Harvard brand is strong enough that students will accept an inferior educational experience. The fifty biggest university brands, Harvard, Stanford, etc, will partner with tech giants like Apple or Facebook to create a hybrid university, most others will hollow out and die like the large department store chains. Dorm life and in-person experience will be reserved for children of the 1%.

Pretty bleak and a commentary on previous FRIAM conversations about education and elite universities.

davew

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Steve Smith

Re: "higher" education

On 5/29/20 5:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Steve, I am sure that my brother-in-law, who got his MD at Harvard
> after his undergraduate study there would enjoy talking to your
> daughter and would treat her as a full equal. I've never seen him
> acting superior to a colleague based on what school they went to.
> Same for my wife.

I know... I don't mean on a pairwise one-on-one situation (much), but
more about when grant proposals are being developed and submitted and
collaborations with peers are developed and how she overhears
discussions among them at conferences that are not personally
dismissive, but might have some implication that (in this case) they
would prefer to only work with "top notch" scientists which might be a
code-word for something like "not from a State School", or similar.

I think we have *all* been in situations where someone abruptly turns to
us in freewheeling conversation and says "present company excluded, of
course!" when they realize that what they were implying might seem to
apply to us.   I have plenty of friends who forget I am a member of one
class or another that they are dismissing or impugning in some way, and
may or may not catch themselves.

I'd say these things are much more "structural" than personal... and as
she matures (she just turned 40 and had her first/only child) I think
this will bother her less. And, the old white men (my generation) who
still treat her a little less than equal (though always respectful and
often (albeit condescendingly) specifically helpful) will retire or
die... and that will open up a few more opportunities for her and she
might feel less (mildly) marginalized by the "good ole this-n-that
networks" that seem to (structurally) inhibit her.

- Steve

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