freewill gedankenexperiment

[Prof David West]

Imagine you are in a spaceship. You have a main thruster and two pairs of opposed lateral thrusters. All thrusters have limited fuel supplies, preventing perpetual use. Other than that, you may activate any thruster, alone or in combination for any duration up to the limit of the fuel supply.

Call the ability to push buttons and fire thrusters at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will"with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill — i.e. a ship trajectory — is determined by the attitude, vector, momentum (embodied history or previous free will actions), and the gravitational influence of every other mass in the Universe. (Even if the influence is below a threshold of reasonable measurement,)

Further recognize,  that for the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill to have "meaning" — i.e. to ensure your arrival at Star Base Theta in the Altairian Sector — you need a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of celestial dynamics in order to take the right actions in the right degree at the right time.

Now imagine yourself a homunculus sitting in a hidden recess of your cerebellum, surrounded by a 767's worth of buttons, switches, instruments, dials, and computer interfaces. You still have a "fuel constraint' but the degrees of freedom and the combinatorial explosion of possible acts/actions is immense.

Call the ability to push buttons, flip switches, input computer commands, etc.; at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will" with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequences of your acts of freewill — i.e. a "life trajectory" is determined by your state at the time of acting,  the embodied history of all previous acts, and the influence of all other entities (sentient or not, measurable or not) in your environment.

Further recognize that for your life trajectory to have "meaning" — i.e. whatever set of states and circumstances that fit your idiosyncratic definition of 'the good life' — you need self-knowledge that exceeds even Socrates' ideal, awareness and understanding of culture, and probably comprehensive and intuitive understanding of Harry Seldon's Psychohistory.

* * * * * * * * * * *
Can useful questions, positions, conclusions be derived?

davew


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[Pieter Steenekamp]

Dave, I love your scenario. Let me build on it.

After you have answered your questions and came to a conclusion add the following:

With the current state of AI, a computer can reasonably easily do your tasks, maybe better? So get an AI to dial your knobs. Does this AI have free will and "meaning"?

 

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 at 07:22, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

Imagine you are in a spaceship. You have a main thruster and two pairs of opposed lateral thrusters. All thrusters have limited fuel supplies, preventing perpetual use. Other than that, you may activate any thruster, alone or in combination for any duration up to the limit of the fuel supply.

Call the ability to push buttons and fire thrusters at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will"with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill — i.e. a ship trajectory — is determined by the attitude, vector, momentum (embodied history or previous free will actions), and the gravitational influence of every other mass in the Universe. (Even if the influence is below a threshold of reasonable measurement,)

Further recognize,  that for the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill to have "meaning" — i.e. to ensure your arrival at Star Base Theta in the Altairian Sector — you need a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of celestial dynamics in order to take the right actions in the right degree at the right time.

Now imagine yourself a homunculus sitting in a hidden recess of your cerebellum, surrounded by a 767's worth of buttons, switches, instruments, dials, and computer interfaces. You still have a "fuel constraint' but the degrees of freedom and the combinatorial explosion of possible acts/actions is immense.

Call the ability to push buttons, flip switches, input computer commands, etc.; at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will" with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequences of your acts of freewill — i.e. a "life trajectory" is determined by your state at the time of acting,  the embodied history of all previous acts, and the influence of all other entities (sentient or not, measurable or not) in your environment.

Further recognize that for your life trajectory to have "meaning" — i.e. whatever set of states and circumstances that fit your idiosyncratic definition of 'the good life' — you need self-knowledge that exceeds even Socrates' ideal, awareness and understanding of culture, and probably comprehensive and intuitive understanding of Harry Seldon's Psychohistory.

* * * * * * * * * * *
Can useful questions, positions, conclusions be derived?

davew


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[Jochen Fromm-5]

So your Kobayashi Maru test of free will says free will is the ability to decide which direction you want to move and the "meaning of life" is arriving at a certain destination.

I would say the real problem is that you may have free will, but you do not know what you want if you do not listen to your emotions. The other ships on Earth are limited to the surface where they do not have this problem. They just follow the winds of emotions which tell them where to go.

You have a modern spaceship which has warp drive. You can go wherever you want. The problem is you do not know the destination, and you do not know where the next Star Base is. You can visit some kind of oracle on Mars. The ancient Greek and the Chinese used oracles. Or you accidentally meet a fleet of other spaceships which are on the way to Star Base Theta. You join them which gives your life a meaning, a destination, but if you want to reach Star Base Theta you are not allowed to break the rules of Starfleet. If Starfleet ever arrives at the Star Base is unclear, but at least being part of Starfleet resolves the problem that you do not know what you want. As a member of Starfleet you want to reach Star Base Theta in the Altairian Sector now.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/18/20 07:23 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] freewill gedankenexperiment

Imagine you are in a spaceship. You have a main thruster and two pairs of opposed lateral thrusters. All thrusters have limited fuel supplies, preventing perpetual use. Other than that, you may activate any thruster, alone or in combination for any duration up to the limit of the fuel supply.

Call the ability to push buttons and fire thrusters at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will"with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill — i.e. a ship trajectory — is determined by the attitude, vector, momentum (embodied history or previous free will actions), and the gravitational influence of every other mass in the Universe. (Even if the influence is below a threshold of reasonable measurement,)

Further recognize,  that for the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill to have "meaning" — i.e. to ensure your arrival at Star Base Theta in the Altairian Sector — you need a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of celestial dynamics in order to take the right actions in the right degree at the right time.

Now imagine yourself a homunculus sitting in a hidden recess of your cerebellum, surrounded by a 767's worth of buttons, switches, instruments, dials, and computer interfaces. You still have a "fuel constraint' but the degrees of freedom and the combinatorial explosion of possible acts/actions is immense.

Call the ability to push buttons, flip switches, input computer commands, etc.; at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will" with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequences of your acts of freewill — i.e. a "life trajectory" is determined by your state at the time of acting,  the embodied history of all previous acts, and the influence of all other entities (sentient or not, measurable or not) in your environment.

Further recognize that for your life trajectory to have "meaning" — i.e. whatever set of states and circumstances that fit your idiosyncratic definition of 'the good life' — you need self-knowledge that exceeds even Socrates' ideal, awareness and understanding of culture, and probably comprehensive and intuitive understanding of Harry Seldon's Psychohistory.

* * * * * * * * * * *
Can useful questions, positions, conclusions be derived?

davew


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[Jochen Fromm-5]

About the question if there is a pilot at all: Gilbert Ryle and Daniel Dennett would of course argue there is no pilot in the spaceship. This is their main thesis in "The concept of mind" and in  "Consciousness explained"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained

If we assume that the organ of thought is the brain, a physical object, and that any effect in the physical world is caused by something else in the physical world, then we arrive at Epiphenomenalism. It says whatever is going on in our minds is just a product of a purely physical process going on in the brain. Humans are biological machines and the inner life we have is just the hum of that machine. The hum of a machine does not move a machine. It is just a byproduct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism

Using this materialistic view we have the problem of mental causation in our spaceships: experiencing the hum in the spaceship does not influence the course. The ship does only what it was built to do. Arthur Schopenhauer said "man can do what he wants, but he can not choose what he wants" (in the original: "Der Mensch kann tun was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen, was er will").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_mental_causation

Nevertheless the ship can trick the machine which runs in a continuous perceive-reason-act cycle, for example by changing the environment which causes the ship to alter its path. For example we write a note in our calendar which causes us to do something the next day. We are controlling ourselves by using external objects. 

We can also switch off the main engines, the emotions, but then the ship no longer has an engine and does not know where do go. For a new engine which replaces the old we usually need external help. We can contact Starfleet and they borrow us a Warp Drive the ship can use, but it requires regular maintenance and we have to follow Starfleet directives. 

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/18/20 09:19 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] freewill gedankenexperiment

So your Kobayashi Maru test of free will says free will is the ability to decide which direction you want to move and the "meaning of life" is arriving at a certain destination.

I would say the real problem is that you may have free will, but you do not know what you want if you do not listen to your emotions. The other ships on Earth are limited to the surface where they do not have this problem. They just follow the winds of emotions which tell them where to go.

You have a modern spaceship which has warp drive. You can go wherever you want. The problem is you do not know the destination, and you do not know where the next Star Base is. You can visit some kind of oracle on Mars. The ancient Greek and the Chinese used oracles. Or you accidentally meet a fleet of other spaceships which are on the way to Star Base Theta. You join them which gives your life a meaning, a destination, but if you want to reach Star Base Theta you are not allowed to break the rules of Starfleet. If Starfleet ever arrives at the Star Base is unclear, but at least being part of Starfleet resolves the problem that you do not know what you want. As a member of Starfleet you want to reach Star Base Theta in the Altairian Sector now.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/18/20 07:23 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] freewill gedankenexperiment

Imagine you are in a spaceship. You have a main thruster and two pairs of opposed lateral thrusters. All thrusters have limited fuel supplies, preventing perpetual use. Other than that, you may activate any thruster, alone or in combination for any duration up to the limit of the fuel supply.

Call the ability to push buttons and fire thrusters at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will"with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill — i.e. a ship trajectory — is determined by the attitude, vector, momentum (embodied history or previous free will actions), and the gravitational influence of every other mass in the Universe. (Even if the influence is below a threshold of reasonable measurement,)

Further recognize,  that for the outcome/consequence of your acts of freewill to have "meaning" — i.e. to ensure your arrival at Star Base Theta in the Altairian Sector — you need a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of celestial dynamics in order to take the right actions in the right degree at the right time.

Now imagine yourself a homunculus sitting in a hidden recess of your cerebellum, surrounded by a 767's worth of buttons, switches, instruments, dials, and computer interfaces. You still have a "fuel constraint' but the degrees of freedom and the combinatorial explosion of possible acts/actions is immense.

Call the ability to push buttons, flip switches, input computer commands, etc.; at whim, with deliberation, accidentally, with intent, etc. "free will" with regard that/those act(s).

Recognize that the outcome/consequences of your acts of freewill — i.e. a "life trajectory" is determined by your state at the time of acting,  the embodied history of all previous acts, and the influence of all other entities (sentient or not, measurable or not) in your environment.

Further recognize that for your life trajectory to have "meaning" — i.e. whatever set of states and circumstances that fit your idiosyncratic definition of 'the good life' — you need self-knowledge that exceeds even Socrates' ideal, awareness and understanding of culture, and probably comprehensive and intuitive understanding of Harry Seldon's Psychohistory.

* * * * * * * * * * *
Can useful questions, positions, conclusions be derived?

davew


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