cf "COLLAPSE" and Easter Island
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cf "COLLAPSE" and Easter Island
 
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THE PROBLEMS::
1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot happens.. 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not cut back on costs. THE SOLUTION: 1. Progressive Taxation 2. Universal Education. And one or both of: 3a. Randomization of babies at birth 3b. 100 percent death tax. It's so easy! Nick > [Original Message] > From: <friam-request at redfish.com> > To: <friam at redfish.com> > Date: 12/10/2006 12:00:37 PM > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > friam at redfish.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > friam-request at redfish.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > friam-owner at redfish.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Growth and Climate Change (Marcus G. Daniels) > 2. Re: Democracy and evolution (Douglass Carmichael) > 3. Re: Democracy and evolution (PPARYSKI at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:02:36 -0700 > From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <mgd at santafe.edu> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Growth and Climate Change > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: <457B246C.2050408 at santafe.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Robert Cordingley wrote: > > > Here's a story to remind us to do full life cycle accounting of > > environmental improvements (with apologies to all the Prius owners in > > SF and the batteries they use) > > id=417227&in_page_id=1770 > > > I understand that the 2008 Prius will use lithium batteries, not Ni-MH. > Not enough uumph? Then set your sights on one of these: > http://www.teslamotors.com > > Also of perhaps of interest: http://www.valence.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:50:19 -0800 > From: "Douglass Carmichael" <doug at dougcarmichael.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution > To: <sy at synapse9.com>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee > Group'" <friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: <05ab01c71c0e$51768470$f4638d50$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Phil, I have been thinking about your comment that you will say something > with implications and nobody responds, like your comment about an > expansion based on our success till we collapse our environment by eating up > our own surround. And then you raise the question of bomb hardening of > buildings... > > What of the work of Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies..? > > To ideas he has > 1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise > faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot happens.. > > 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not cut > back on costs. > > Your two ideas seem to fit this. Can a smarter human community avoid the > evolutionary failures? > > Any contact with Tainter? I really admire his work. He has been at the SF > Institute.. > > Doug Carmichael > > -----Original Message----- > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On > Of Phil Henshaw > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:58 AM > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution > > well... sort of... For one of a million examples, if we multiply our > impacts on the earth by adding 10 billion people this century, how much > is that relieved by sending 50 or 100 people off to live somewhere else > if they can??? Sometimes we should look at the numbers and the timing > of things. > > It may raise more questons than it answers,... but another one I like is > estimating the value of the bomb hardening of federal buildings, like > the one I'm building now, a big courthouse. It probably adds at least > 10 million to the cost. If you guess there are at least 5000 higher > priority targets for terrorists in the US than a courthouse in > Mississippi, and terrorists wipe out one a year like clock work, that > means it'll be at least 5000 years before they get around to mine. > Given that the lifetime of the building is expected to be 100 years it's > apparent that nature will build and destroy it at least 50 times before > a terrorist does, and the lost opportunity cost of $10 million for 5000 > years the way you normally calculate it at 3.5% return is 1.8*10^84. > That's a lot of bread!! > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > NY NY 10040 > tel: 212-795-4844 > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com > > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels > > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:28 AM > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution > > > > > > Phil Henshaw wrote: > > > > >We're simply not making a world that's possible to operate in a huge > > >variety of ways. > > > > > > > > Here's one way to delay the apocalypse.. > > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/11/30/space.hawking.reut/index.html > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 > 12:53 PM > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 > 12:53 PM > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:38:34 EST > From: PPARYSKI at aol.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution > To: friam at redfish.com > Message-ID: <bde.ad6ef10.32ace94a at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses > issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of natural > resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on which we > all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic systems > that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our children > and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more dangerous > world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as communication, > computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are properly > applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. > > For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, we > might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of > individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Sigh. > Something to think about anyway. > > Paul Paryski > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061209/ff6fddbb/attachment-0001.h tml > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Friam mailing list > Friam at redfish.com > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 > ************************************* |
cf "COLLAPSE" and Easter Island
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2) Elites are not interested in Universal Education.
3b) How's about Progressive Death Taxation? :-) -Mikhail ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> To: <friam at redfish.com> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] cf "COLLAPSE" and Easter Island > THE PROBLEMS:: > 1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise > faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot > happens.. > > 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not cut > back on costs. > > THE SOLUTION: > > 1. Progressive Taxation > > 2. Universal Education. > > And one or both of: > > 3a. Randomization of babies at birth > > 3b. 100 percent death tax. > > It's so easy! > > Nick > >> [Original Message] >> From: <friam-request at redfish.com> >> To: <friam at redfish.com> >> Date: 12/10/2006 12:00:37 PM >> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 >> >> Send Friam mailing list submissions to >> friam at redfish.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> friam-request at redfish.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> friam-owner at redfish.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Growth and Climate Change (Marcus G. Daniels) >> 2. Re: Democracy and evolution (Douglass Carmichael) >> 3. Re: Democracy and evolution (PPARYSKI at aol.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:02:36 -0700 >> From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <mgd at santafe.edu> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Growth and Climate Change >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <friam at redfish.com> >> Message-ID: <457B246C.2050408 at santafe.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Robert Cordingley wrote: >> >> > Here's a story to remind us to do full life cycle accounting of >> > environmental improvements (with apologies to all the Prius owners in >> > SF and the batteries they use) >> > > http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_ > id=417227&in_page_id=1770 >> > >> I understand that the 2008 Prius will use lithium batteries, not Ni-MH. >> Not enough uumph? Then set your sights on one of these: >> http://www.teslamotors.com >> >> Also of perhaps of interest: http://www.valence.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:50:19 -0800 >> From: "Douglass Carmichael" <doug at dougcarmichael.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> To: <sy at synapse9.com>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee >> Group'" <friam at redfish.com> >> Message-ID: <05ab01c71c0e$51768470$f4638d50$@com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Phil, I have been thinking about your comment that you will say something >> with implications and nobody responds, like your comment about an > economic >> expansion based on our success till we collapse our environment by eating > up >> our own surround. And then you raise the question of bomb hardening of >> buildings... >> >> What of the work of Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies..? >> >> To ideas he has >> 1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise >> faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot > happens.. >> >> 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not cut >> back on costs. >> >> Your two ideas seem to fit this. Can a smarter human community avoid the >> evolutionary failures? >> >> Any contact with Tainter? I really admire his work. He has been at the SF >> Institute.. >> >> Doug Carmichael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On > Behalf >> Of Phil Henshaw >> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:58 AM >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> >> well... sort of... For one of a million examples, if we multiply our >> impacts on the earth by adding 10 billion people this century, how much >> is that relieved by sending 50 or 100 people off to live somewhere else >> if they can??? Sometimes we should look at the numbers and the timing >> of things. >> >> It may raise more questons than it answers,... but another one I like is >> estimating the value of the bomb hardening of federal buildings, like >> the one I'm building now, a big courthouse. It probably adds at least >> 10 million to the cost. If you guess there are at least 5000 higher >> priority targets for terrorists in the US than a courthouse in >> Mississippi, and terrorists wipe out one a year like clock work, that >> means it'll be at least 5000 years before they get around to mine. >> Given that the lifetime of the building is expected to be 100 years it's >> apparent that nature will build and destroy it at least 50 times before >> a terrorist does, and the lost opportunity cost of $10 million for 5000 >> years the way you normally calculate it at 3.5% return is 1.8*10^84. >> That's a lot of bread!! >> >> >> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> 680 Ft. Washington Ave >> NY NY 10040 >> tel: 212-795-4844 >> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com >> explorations: www.synapse9.com >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com >> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels >> > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:28 AM >> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> > >> > >> > Phil Henshaw wrote: >> > >> > >We're simply not making a world that's possible to operate in a huge >> > >variety of ways. >> > > >> > > >> > Here's one way to delay the apocalypse.. >> > >> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/11/30/space.hawking.reut/index.html >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2006 >> 12:53 PM >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2006 >> 12:53 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:38:34 EST >> From: PPARYSKI at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> To: friam at redfish.com >> Message-ID: <bde.ad6ef10.32ace94a at aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses > these >> issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of > natural >> resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on > which we >> all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic > systems >> that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our > children >> and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more > dangerous >> world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as > communication, >> computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are > properly >> applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. >> >> For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, > we >> might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out > of >> individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. > Sigh. >> Something to think about anyway. >> >> Paul Paryski >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061209/ff6fddbb/attachment-0001.h > tml >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Friam mailing list >> Friam at redfish.com >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> End of Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 >> ************************************* > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
One more aspect of democracy: it was Western Elites' response to USSR's
Social Project. --Mikhail >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Growth and Climate Change (Marcus G. Daniels) >> 2. Re: Democracy and evolution (Douglass Carmichael) >> 3. Re: Democracy and evolution (PPARYSKI at aol.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:02:36 -0700 >> From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <mgd at santafe.edu> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Growth and Climate Change >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <friam at redfish.com> >> Message-ID: <457B246C.2050408 at santafe.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Robert Cordingley wrote: >> >> > Here's a story to remind us to do full life cycle accounting of >> > environmental improvements (with apologies to all the Prius owners in >> > SF and the batteries they use) >> > > http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_ > id=417227&in_page_id=1770 >> > >> I understand that the 2008 Prius will use lithium batteries, not Ni-MH. >> Not enough uumph? Then set your sights on one of these: >> http://www.teslamotors.com >> >> Also of perhaps of interest: http://www.valence.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:50:19 -0800 >> From: "Douglass Carmichael" <doug at dougcarmichael.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> To: <sy at synapse9.com>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee >> Group'" <friam at redfish.com> >> Message-ID: <05ab01c71c0e$51768470$f4638d50$@com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Phil, I have been thinking about your comment that you will say something >> with implications and nobody responds, like your comment about an > economic >> expansion based on our success till we collapse our environment by eating > up >> our own surround. And then you raise the question of bomb hardening of >> buildings... >> >> What of the work of Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies..? >> >> To ideas he has >> 1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise >> faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot > happens.. >> >> 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not cut >> back on costs. >> >> Your two ideas seem to fit this. Can a smarter human community avoid the >> evolutionary failures? >> >> Any contact with Tainter? I really admire his work. He has been at the SF >> Institute.. >> >> Doug Carmichael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On > Behalf >> Of Phil Henshaw >> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:58 AM >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> >> well... sort of... For one of a million examples, if we multiply our >> impacts on the earth by adding 10 billion people this century, how much >> is that relieved by sending 50 or 100 people off to live somewhere else >> if they can??? Sometimes we should look at the numbers and the timing >> of things. >> >> It may raise more questons than it answers,... but another one I like is >> estimating the value of the bomb hardening of federal buildings, like >> the one I'm building now, a big courthouse. It probably adds at least >> 10 million to the cost. If you guess there are at least 5000 higher >> priority targets for terrorists in the US than a courthouse in >> Mississippi, and terrorists wipe out one a year like clock work, that >> means it'll be at least 5000 years before they get around to mine. >> Given that the lifetime of the building is expected to be 100 years it's >> apparent that nature will build and destroy it at least 50 times before >> a terrorist does, and the lost opportunity cost of $10 million for 5000 >> years the way you normally calculate it at 3.5% return is 1.8*10^84. >> That's a lot of bread!! >> >> >> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> 680 Ft. Washington Ave >> NY NY 10040 >> tel: 212-795-4844 >> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com >> explorations: www.synapse9.com >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com >> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels >> > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:28 AM >> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> > >> > >> > Phil Henshaw wrote: >> > >> > >We're simply not making a world that's possible to operate in a huge >> > >variety of ways. >> > > >> > > >> > Here's one way to delay the apocalypse.. >> > >> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/11/30/space.hawking.reut/index.html >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2006 >> 12:53 PM >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2006 >> 12:53 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:38:34 EST >> From: PPARYSKI at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> To: friam at redfish.com >> Message-ID: <bde.ad6ef10.32ace94a at aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses > these >> issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of > natural >> resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on > which we >> all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic > systems >> that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our > children >> and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more > dangerous >> world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as > communication, >> computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are > properly >> applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. >> >> For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, > we >> might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out > of >> individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. > Sigh. >> Something to think about anyway. >> >> Paul Paryski >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061209/ff6fddbb/attachment-0001.h > tml >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Friam mailing list >> Friam at redfish.com >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> End of Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 >> ************************************* > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > |
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One common misunderstanding of socialism: people usually compare
effectiveness of capitalism and socialism economics. It's inadequate! because socialism is a Social Project and economic is just a secondary factor to support a main concept. --Mikhail ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mikhail Gorelkin" <[hidden email]> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution > One more aspect of democracy: it was Western Elites' response to USSR's > Social Project. --Mikhail > > >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Growth and Climate Change (Marcus G. Daniels) >>> 2. Re: Democracy and evolution (Douglass Carmichael) >>> 3. Re: Democracy and evolution (PPARYSKI at aol.com) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:02:36 -0700 >>> From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <mgd at santafe.edu> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Growth and Climate Change >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> <friam at redfish.com> >>> Message-ID: <457B246C.2050408 at santafe.edu> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>> >>> Robert Cordingley wrote: >>> >>> > Here's a story to remind us to do full life cycle accounting of >>> > environmental improvements (with apologies to all the Prius owners in >>> > SF and the batteries they use) >>> > >> http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_ >> id=417227&in_page_id=1770 >>> > >>> I understand that the 2008 Prius will use lithium batteries, not Ni-MH. >>> Not enough uumph? Then set your sights on one of these: >>> http://www.teslamotors.com >>> >>> Also of perhaps of interest: http://www.valence.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:50:19 -0800 >>> From: "Douglass Carmichael" <doug at dougcarmichael.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >>> To: <sy at synapse9.com>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee >>> Group'" <friam at redfish.com> >>> Message-ID: <05ab01c71c0e$51768470$f4638d50$@com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>> >>> Phil, I have been thinking about your comment that you will say >>> something >>> with implications and nobody responds, like your comment about an >> economic >>> expansion based on our success till we collapse our environment by >>> eating >> up >>> our own surround. And then you raise the question of bomb hardening of >>> buildings... >>> >>> What of the work of Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies..? >>> >>> To ideas he has >>> 1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise >>> faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot >> happens.. >>> >>> 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not >>> cut >>> back on costs. >>> >>> Your two ideas seem to fit this. Can a smarter human community avoid the >>> evolutionary failures? >>> >>> Any contact with Tainter? I really admire his work. He has been at the >>> SF >>> Institute.. >>> >>> Doug Carmichael >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On >> Behalf >>> Of Phil Henshaw >>> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:58 AM >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >>> >>> well... sort of... For one of a million examples, if we multiply our >>> impacts on the earth by adding 10 billion people this century, how much >>> is that relieved by sending 50 or 100 people off to live somewhere else >>> if they can??? Sometimes we should look at the numbers and the timing >>> of things. >>> >>> It may raise more questons than it answers,... but another one I like is >>> estimating the value of the bomb hardening of federal buildings, like >>> the one I'm building now, a big courthouse. It probably adds at least >>> 10 million to the cost. If you guess there are at least 5000 higher >>> priority targets for terrorists in the US than a courthouse in >>> Mississippi, and terrorists wipe out one a year like clock work, that >>> means it'll be at least 5000 years before they get around to mine. >>> Given that the lifetime of the building is expected to be 100 years it's >>> apparent that nature will build and destroy it at least 50 times before >>> a terrorist does, and the lost opportunity cost of $10 million for 5000 >>> years the way you normally calculate it at 3.5% return is 1.8*10^84. >>> That's a lot of bread!! >>> >>> >>> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> 680 Ft. Washington Ave >>> NY NY 10040 >>> tel: 212-795-4844 >>> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com >>> explorations: www.synapse9.com >>> >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com >>> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels >>> > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:28 AM >>> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >>> > >>> > >>> > Phil Henshaw wrote: >>> > >>> > >We're simply not making a world that's possible to operate in a huge >>> > >variety of ways. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Here's one way to delay the apocalypse.. >>> > >>> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/11/30/space.hawking.reut/index.html >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >>> 12/8/2006 >>> 12:53 PM >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this outgoing message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >>> 12/8/2006 >>> 12:53 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:38:34 EST >>> From: PPARYSKI at aol.com >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >>> To: friam at redfish.com >>> Message-ID: <bde.ad6ef10.32ace94a at aol.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses >> these >>> issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of >> natural >>> resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on >> which we >>> all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic >> systems >>> that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our >> children >>> and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more >> dangerous >>> world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as >> communication, >>> computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are >> properly >>> applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. >>> >>> For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, >> we >>> might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out >> of >>> individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. >> Sigh. >>> Something to think about anyway. >>> >>> Paul Paryski >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >> /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061209/ff6fddbb/attachment-0001.h >> tml >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Friam mailing list >>> Friam at redfish.com >>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> >>> >>> End of Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 >>> ************************************* >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > |
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In reply to this post by Mikhail Gorelkin
Jefferson, De Tocqueville et al. knew about the USSR?
-----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mikhail Gorelkin Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:37 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution One more aspect of democracy: it was Western Elites' response to USSR's Social Project. --Mikhail >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Growth and Climate Change (Marcus G. Daniels) >> 2. Re: Democracy and evolution (Douglass Carmichael) >> 3. Re: Democracy and evolution (PPARYSKI at aol.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:02:36 -0700 >> From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <mgd at santafe.edu> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Growth and Climate Change >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <friam at redfish.com> >> Message-ID: <457B246C.2050408 at santafe.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Robert Cordingley wrote: >> >> > Here's a story to remind us to do full life cycle accounting of >> > environmental improvements (with apologies to all the Prius owners >> > SF and the batteries they use) >> > > http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti cle_ > id=417227&in_page_id=1770 >> > >> I understand that the 2008 Prius will use lithium batteries, not Ni-MH. >> Not enough uumph? Then set your sights on one of these: >> http://www.teslamotors.com >> >> Also of perhaps of interest: http://www.valence.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:50:19 -0800 >> From: "Douglass Carmichael" <doug at dougcarmichael.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> To: <sy at synapse9.com>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee >> Group'" <friam at redfish.com> >> Message-ID: <05ab01c71c0e$51768470$f4638d50$@com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Phil, I have been thinking about your comment that you will say >> with implications and nobody responds, like your comment about an > economic >> expansion based on our success till we collapse our environment by eating > up >> our own surround. And then you raise the question of bomb hardening of >> buildings... >> >> What of the work of Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies..? >> >> To ideas he has >> 1. societies overspend on infrastructure, and infrastructure costs rise >> faster than GDP, till all surplus is used up and a cost overshoot > happens.. >> >> 2. Elites own the infrastructure business and so are motivated to not cut >> back on costs. >> >> Your two ideas seem to fit this. Can a smarter human community avoid the >> evolutionary failures? >> >> Any contact with Tainter? I really admire his work. He has been at the SF >> Institute.. >> >> Doug Carmichael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On > Behalf >> Of Phil Henshaw >> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:58 AM >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> >> well... sort of... For one of a million examples, if we multiply >> impacts on the earth by adding 10 billion people this century, how much >> is that relieved by sending 50 or 100 people off to live somewhere else >> if they can??? Sometimes we should look at the numbers and the timing >> of things. >> >> It may raise more questons than it answers,... but another one I like is >> estimating the value of the bomb hardening of federal buildings, like >> the one I'm building now, a big courthouse. It probably adds at least >> 10 million to the cost. If you guess there are at least 5000 higher >> priority targets for terrorists in the US than a courthouse in >> Mississippi, and terrorists wipe out one a year like clock work, that >> means it'll be at least 5000 years before they get around to mine. >> Given that the lifetime of the building is expected to be 100 years it's >> apparent that nature will build and destroy it at least 50 times before >> a terrorist does, and the lost opportunity cost of $10 million for 5000 >> years the way you normally calculate it at 3.5% return is 1.8*10^84. >> That's a lot of bread!! >> >> >> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> 680 Ft. Washington Ave >> NY NY 10040 >> tel: 212-795-4844 >> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com >> explorations: www.synapse9.com >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com >> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels >> > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:28 AM >> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> > >> > >> > Phil Henshaw wrote: >> > >> > >We're simply not making a world that's possible to operate in a >> > >variety of ways. >> > > >> > > >> > Here's one way to delay the apocalypse.. >> > >> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/11/30/space.hawking.reut/index.html >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2006 >> 12:53 PM >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2006 >> 12:53 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:38:34 EST >> From: PPARYSKI at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution >> To: friam at redfish.com >> Message-ID: <bde.ad6ef10.32ace94a at aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses > these >> issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of > natural >> resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems > which we >> all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic > systems >> that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our > children >> and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more > dangerous >> world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as > communication, >> computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are > properly >> applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. >> >> For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal > we >> might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out > of >> individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. > Sigh. >> Something to think about anyway. >> >> Paul Paryski >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > 01.h > tml >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Friam mailing list >> Friam at redfish.com >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> End of Friam Digest, Vol 42, Issue 18 >> ************************************* > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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