Friam

alternative response

Classic

List

Threaded

166 messages Options

1234 ... 9

Prof David West

alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

davew

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: alternative response

Regarding herbal antivirals: good luck with that. Sincerely.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 10:12 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

It seems to me doctors by in large do not substitute their own judgement. They are restricted by approved treatment protocols and what patient insurance will cover. Most diagnosis comes the collective experience of the community – it is descriptive like cartography. Treatment protocols are limited by testing budgets of pharmaceutical companies and what the market will bear to reimburse them.

It seems inevitable that this will be displaced over time with machine learning and robotics. I imagine a future like in Never Let Me Go, but perhaps a type of genetically modified human with no cognitive function that can used for testing in place of monkeys.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 9:12 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Hi, Dave,

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

davew

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Maybe you have to be close to the "tin hat people" if you want to be extraordinary? Aristotle and Seneca allegedly said that there is no genius without a touch of madness. I guess Seneca has read Aristotle? Or he knew some tin hat people in ancient Rome. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: [hidden email]

Date: 6/14/20 18:12 (GMT+01:00)

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Hi, Dave,

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

davew

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Jochen,

Well, clearly there is a motivational dimension involved. We WANT the tin hat people to be wrong, because we are so INSANELY dependent on our cell phones. We WANT the herbal people to be right because, if they are right, then we have some margin of control over a situation that our doctors would tell us – if they were honest and articulate – is plainly out of our control. But as scientists, we are trained not to take our wants seriously, to distinguish them facts. Under what circumstances do we allow the wants/facts distinction to break down?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 11:29 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: [hidden email]

Date: 6/14/20 18:12 (GMT+01:00)

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Hi, Dave,

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

davew

Prof David West

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

Nick,

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

Hi, Marcus,

I guess the question is, “Do you Really believe that there Really is a better way do engineer software?” I guess that amounts to the question, “In the very, very long run, do you think that software engineering will converge upon a short list of best practices.” Or are such preferences merely idiopathic.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

Marcus

Russ Abbott

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Prof David West

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Software Engineering considers itself to be an applied science. Physics::Engineering — Computer Science::Software Engineering.

Rightness / wrongness can have two dimensions. The most obvious is the degree to which the engineering conforms to the 'laws' / principles of the underlying science. An alternative dimension would be the degree to which the engineering actually identifies and solves the actual problem.

Software engineering 'fails' because it is incapable of solving the problems presented by complex systems. Among them, ambiguity, context sensitivity, unknowable, even in principle, variables, and "wicked problems."

Analogy: buildings can be engineered, cities cannot.

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 12:20 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Prof David West

My parents sometimes took a herbal medicine named "Echinacin" based on the plant Echinace purpurea to strengthen their immune system. It is harmless. I take it as well occasionally, it is available as drops or pills. Pure herbs, no chemicals. I think the feeling that it might help already helps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea

Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

Nick,

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ,

I seem to have confounded two issues, here: Is Engineering ever a science, and is software engineering in any sense a science? Will we ever converge on the Best Way To Build A Bridge? And, Is Software engineering like bridge-building? I guess that in bridge building there are certain harsh realities to which we must conform. Are there any harsh realities to which software engineering must conform? What are they? Does having to conform to harsh realities make an activity a science?

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Prof David West

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

a draft from something I am working on at the moment:

The future demands an approach to software development that addresses both complexity and scale. Complex systems are highly dynamic; a consequence of the need to rapidly respond to changing circumstances. Complex systems exhibit emergent behavior; characteristics and relationships that are not predictable. Complex systems give rise to “wicked problems” where any solution redefines the problem. Complex systems, like biological and social systems, are “grown” not “engineered.”

Ultra-large-scale systems add a second dimension to complexity and present additional challenges, especially with regard control, heterogeneity, and integration of human and artificial elements of the system. The Software Engineering Institute at Carnegie-Mellon University authored a definitive study — Ultra-Large-Scale Systems: The Software Challenge of the Future. The report concludes, “we require a broad new conception of both the nature of such systems and new ideas for how to develop them” and “The task of developing dependable software at the scope and scale of ULS systems will exceed the capabilities of software engineering methods that have evolved in the first 50 years of computing.”

Within SEI and CMU, there was a debate, for a while, with regards the last sentence. One side, characterized as the "systems of systems" people argued that software engineering would evolve methods to deal with ULS that nevertheless remained true to SE. Eventually, they, mostly, gave up that position.

Herbert Simon wrote, Sciences of the Artificial which captures the SE philosophy / mind set almost perfectly, and he denies that there is such a thing as a complex system.

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 12:20 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Hah, the arc of technical universe is long, but it bends toward best practices? I’m not quite that optimistic. But there are poor things to do, and it is hard to get some people to have a debate about them. You know, because they are busy saving their world with their “productivity”.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Hi, Marcus,

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Prof David West

So, Jochen,

Let it be the case (ex hypothesi) that The Definitive Study (triple blind, a gazillion subjects) has been completed and it has been shown that NEITHER of these extracts has any effect what-so-ever. Would you continue to take them? Why?

Given that we all do stuff like that, on what ground do we have contempt for tin hat folks and climate deniers.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea

Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

Nick,

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

The Shadow.

And I didn't look it up.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:43 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

I seem to have confounded two issues, here: Is Engineering ever a science, and is software engineering in any sense a science? Will we ever converge on the Best Way To Build A Bridge? And, Is Software engineering like bridge-building? I guess that in bridge building there are certain harsh realities to which we must conform. Are there any harsh realities to which software engineering must conform? What are they? Does having to conform to harsh realities make an activity a science?

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

We don’t all do stuff like that. Stop generalizing like this.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:51 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

So, Jochen,

Given that we all do stuff like that, on what ground do we have contempt for tin hat folks and climate deniers.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea

Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

Nick,

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Aw, booo!

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:52 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

The Shadow.

And I didn't look it up.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:43 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

I seem to have confounded two issues, here: Is Engineering ever a science, and is software engineering in any sense a science? Will we ever converge on the Best Way To Build A Bridge? And, Is Software engineering like bridge-building? I guess that in bridge building there are certain harsh realities to which we must conform. Are there any harsh realities to which software engineering must conform? What are they? Does having to conform to harsh realities make an activity a science?

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

1234 ... 9