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alternative response

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Russ Abbott

Re: alternative response

Nick,

There are many widely accepted good practices, such as regression testing, extracting a function rather than copying and pasting code, writing code so that others can understand it, ... .

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:53 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aw, booo!

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:52 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

The Shadow.

And I didn't look it up.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:43 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Russ,

I seem to have confounded two issues, here: Is Engineering ever a science, and is software engineering in any sense a science? Will we ever converge on the Best Way To Build A Bridge? And, Is Software engineering like bridge-building? I guess that in bridge building there are certain harsh realities to which we must conform. Are there any harsh realities to which software engineering must conform? What are they? Does having to conform to harsh realities make an activity a science?

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

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thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus,

All I am asserting is that Every one of us (yep, EVERY SINGLE ONE), substitutes his own judgement in some cases for the judgements of science. We harbor little hunches and act on them, even tho our colleagues in the relevant fields would say that those hunches are foolish. Sometimes, in some domain, EACH AND EVERY one of us plays the role of the child in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable.

Now THERE’S a falsifiable hypothesis. Are you the exception that proves me wrong?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

We don’t all do stuff like that. Stop generalizing like this.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:51 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

So, Jochen,

Let it be the case (ex hypothesi) that The Definitive Study (triple blind, a gazillion subjects) has been completed and it has been shown that NEITHER of these extracts has any effect what-so-ever. Would you continue to take them? Why?

Given that we all do stuff like that, on what ground do we have contempt for tin hat folks and climate deniers.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

My parents sometimes took a herbal medicine named "Echinacin" based on the plant Echinace purpurea to strengthen their immune system. It is harmless. I take it as well occasionally, it is available as drops or pills. Pure herbs, no chemicals. I think the feeling that it might help already helps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea

Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick,

I'm the one who's almost as old as you.

Dave,

I eat fruits and vegetables because my wife makes sure I can't avoid them. When I was single my dinner diet consisted of about 6 things. The most eaten vegetables were potatoes and tomatoes. Now I probably eat herbs without knowing it.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:53 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aw, booo!

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:52 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

The Shadow.

And I didn't look it up.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:43 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Russ,

I seem to have confounded two issues, here: Is Engineering ever a science, and is software engineering in any sense a science? Will we ever converge on the Best Way To Build A Bridge? And, Is Software engineering like bridge-building? I guess that in bridge building there are certain harsh realities to which we must conform. Are there any harsh realities to which software engineering must conform? What are they? Does having to conform to harsh realities make an activity a science?

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
< So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? >

In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

That’s not the hypothetical situation you posed. You said it was rock-solid evidence.

Why should I be worried about, say, smartphones and Wifi transmitting on the order of a watt (a risk which has been studied to death) when my neighbor sprays my lawn with a bucket of Round-up because he sees a weed he doesn’t like? I’m bathing in the fields from oscillators operating all over the EMF spectrum in my house and neighborhood. I might obsesses if I thought my mesh network bandwidth had dropped, and an overnight transfer wouldn’t finish. Otherwise, I sleep like a baby. I actually feel unsettled in the wilderness when I can’t hear a fan running!

But sure, it is good if people try out far-out ideas from time to time and ignore the conventional wisdom. Are they doing that because they have some personal issue they are working through, or because they actually know why the conventional wisdom is the conventional wisdom, and believe it is wrong in some specific technical way? Do they think evidence supporting the conventional wisdom is inadequate? (Other than to assail the motives of the those that have collected evidence in the past.) Perhaps taking herbal remedies is sort of not crazy if one believes there is a verbal tradition that hands down knowledge informally about things that happen to work. The bar for technical explanation is not there, and what qualifies for evidence is differently constrained.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:58 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Marcus,

Now THERE’S a falsifiable hypothesis. Are you the exception that proves me wrong?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

We don’t all do stuff like that. Stop generalizing like this.

So, Jochen,

Given that we all do stuff like that, on what ground do we have contempt for tin hat folks and climate deniers.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea

Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

Nick,

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

As someone who was a software something-or-other (engineer, developer, whatever) for a decade or three, my view is that the term "software engineering" is perhaps a good goal for the field, but has in practice been somewhat of a flop. Back in the first AI heyday of the late '70s and early '80s when I worked in the field, there was a term used to describe two camps/philosophies when applied to AI developers - "neats" and "scruffies". Neats were known for developing and applying well thought-out theories, while scruffies just wanted to dig in and try stuff. I've never had very good math skills or training, so I gravitated toward being a scruffy myself. It seems to me that there is at least some parallel between "neat vs scruffy" and "engineer vs hacker" mentality in software.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Russ Abbott

Re: alternative response

Marcus, you write as if you believe that you and others have what we normally call free will. Yet, that's not how science sees the world. I know it'd pretty hard not to act that way. Even so, that would seem to confirm Nick's claim.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

As someone who was a software something-or-other (engineer, developer, whatever) for a decade or three, my view is that the term "software engineering" is perhaps a good goal for the field, but has in practice been somewhat of a flop. Back in the first AI heyday of the late '70s and early '80s when I worked in the field, there was a term used to describe two camps/philosophies when applied to AI developers - "neats" and "scruffies". Neats were known for developing and applying well thought-out theories, while scruffies just wanted to dig in and try stuff. I've never had very good math skills or training, so I gravitated toward being a scruffy myself. It seems to me that there is at least some parallel between "neat vs scruffy" and "engineer vs hacker" mentality in software.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

There are some neats that can get big ideas in their head. The ones that can’t do more boring things IMO. As soon as secondary storage is needed, like a blackboard, I think it also makes sense to scruff around and let order emerge on its own. The artifacts are tools for thinking, not just end products.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 12:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

I’m not sure if you are talking to me or Gary. Anyway, I don’t believe in free will.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 12:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

As someone who was a software something-or-other (engineer, developer, whatever) for a decade or three, my view is that the term "software engineering" is perhaps a good goal for the field, but has in practice been somewhat of a flop. Back in the first AI heyday of the late '70s and early '80s when I worked in the field, there was a term used to describe two camps/philosophies when applied to AI developers - "neats" and "scruffies". Neats were known for developing and applying well thought-out theories, while scruffies just wanted to dig in and try stuff. I've never had very good math skills or training, so I gravitated toward being a scruffy myself. It seems to me that there is at least some parallel between "neat vs scruffy" and "engineer vs hacker" mentality in software.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Russ Abbott

Re: alternative response

I was talking about you. When you say you don't believe in free will, how do you think about what you are doing when you write messages to this group?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:43 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m not sure if you are talking to me or Gary. Anyway, I don’t believe in free will.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 12:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Marcus, you write as if you believe that you and others have what we normally call free will. Yet, that's not how science sees the world. I know it'd pretty hard not to act that way. Even so, that would seem to confirm Nick's claim.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

As someone who was a software something-or-other (engineer, developer, whatever) for a decade or three, my view is that the term "software engineering" is perhaps a good goal for the field, but has in practice been somewhat of a flop. Back in the first AI heyday of the late '70s and early '80s when I worked in the field, there was a term used to describe two camps/philosophies when applied to AI developers - "neats" and "scruffies". Neats were known for developing and applying well thought-out theories, while scruffies just wanted to dig in and try stuff. I've never had very good math skills or training, so I gravitated toward being a scruffy myself. It seems to me that there is at least some parallel between "neat vs scruffy" and "engineer vs hacker" mentality in software.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

Without looking it up anywhere but my associative memory of experiences/anecdotes, I remember my mother uttering this line dramatically, appending "... the Shadow knows!" which she then explained was the intro line to an old radio serial, possibly from the 30's or 40's. I suppose, that this was a reference to something yet earlier... what with "all art is derivative"?

- Steve

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ writes:

< I was talking about you. When you say you don't believe in free will, how do you think about what you are doing when you write messages to this group? >

I think of the conversation as co-recursive process. Some of the functions involved have nested functions that perform some lookahead based on past observed mappings performed by a subset of the other top-level functions. Like pictures of discrete dynamics like one may have seen from Wolfram or Wuensche they are sometimes interesting trajectories on their own. Sometimes the collective trajectory converges to enrich a description or prediction of other observables in the world.

Marcus

jon zingale

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick,

For what it is worth, I am not even sure we will come to agree
on the best way to describe the physics of the natural world.

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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Russ Abbott

Re: alternative response

Marcus, That's a very fancy description. How did you come up with it? And how did you find the words to express it?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

For what it is worth, I am not even sure we will come to agree
on the best way to describe the physics of the natural world.

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

Would you ask a Facebook image labeling algorithm how it converts a picture into a name?

If I were to try to write a set of bots to reproduce FRIAM conversations, I’d probably do it with an agent-based approach, and dump my mental model of each person into a program, and then run the programs together, like a sort of core-war game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War

I think the dynamics of this game would be predictable sometimes, and other times it would have long transients. Other times idiosyncratic word associations would redirect the conversation in unexpected directions.

I’m not sure what you are asking. It seems like you see the reflection on behavior as different from behavior. To me it is all just behavior based on different inputs and types of outputs.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 1:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Marcus, That's a very fancy description. How did you come up with it? And how did you find the words to express it?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

For what it is worth, I am not even sure we will come to agree
on the best way to describe the physics of the natural world.

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Ah. That’s it, Steve! I forgot, when I issued the challenge, that you all had mothers!

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 2:09 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Nick -

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]

- Steve

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Yay, Marcus!

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 2:12 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Russ writes:

< I was talking about you. When you say you don't believe in free will, how do you think about what you are doing when you write messages to this group? >

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Somebody once said that Psychology is the discipline that explores the contradictions between the first and the third person point of view. I can see that. However, if I am to decide which side of the contradiction to privilege, I would choose the third person point of view. After all, there billions of you and only one of me.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 2:57 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Would you ask a Facebook image labeling algorithm how it converts a picture into a name?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War

I’m not sure what you are asking. It seems like you see the reflection on behavior as different from behavior. To me it is all just behavior based on different inputs and types of outputs.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 1:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Marcus, That's a very fancy description. How did you come up with it? And how did you find the words to express it?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

For what it is worth, I am not even sure we will come to agree
on the best way to describe the physics of the natural world.

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: alternative response

Excellent.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 2:43 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Would you ask a Facebook image labeling algorithm how it converts a picture into a name?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War

I’m not sure what you are asking. It seems like you see the reflection on behavior as different from behavior. To me it is all just behavior based on different inputs and types of outputs.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 1:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Marcus, That's a very fancy description. How did you come up with it? And how did you find the words to express it?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

For what it is worth, I am not even sure we will come to agree
on the best way to describe the physics of the natural world.

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

I *knew* it was an election!

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 3:43 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Somebody once said that Psychology is the discipline that explores the contradictions between the first and the third person point of view. I can see that. However, if I am to decide which side of the contradiction to privilege, I would choose the third person point of view. After all, there billions of you and only one of me.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 2:57 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Would you ask a Facebook image labeling algorithm how it converts a picture into a name?
If I were to try to write a set of bots to reproduce FRIAM conversations, I’d probably do it with an agent-based approach, and dump my mental model of each person into a program, and then run the programs together, like a sort of core-war game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War

I think the dynamics of this game would be predictable sometimes, and other times it would have long transients. Other times idiosyncratic word associations would redirect the conversation in unexpected directions.

I’m not sure what you are asking. It seems like you see the reflection on behavior as different from behavior. To me it is all just behavior based on different inputs and types of outputs.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 1:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Marcus, That's a very fancy description. How did you come up with it? And how did you find the words to express it?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,

For what it is worth, I am not even sure we will come to agree
on the best way to describe the physics of the natural world.

Jon

--
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Steve Smith

Re: alternative response

In reply to this post by Prof David West

What about the roles/value of Design vs Systems thinking in working toward collective solutions to large, complex and often abstract problems. They are considered to be somewhat independent of one another and not mutually exclusive. They are roughly associated, respectively with Synthesis vs Analysis but not exclusively and both have some chops in *avoiding common pitfalls" like failing to consider unintended consequences

This was an interesting popular article on the topic:

https://medium.com/from-design-thinking-to-system-change/marrying-design-and-systems-thinking-e856c1a3ba1f

On 6/14/20 12:46 PM, Prof David West wrote:

a draft from something I am working on at the moment:

The future demands an approach to software development that addresses both complexity and scale. Complex systems are highly dynamic; a consequence of the need to rapidly respond to changing circumstances. Complex systems exhibit emergent behavior; characteristics and relationships that are not predictable. Complex systems give rise to “wicked problems” where any solution redefines the problem. Complex systems, like biological and social systems, are “grown” not “engineered.”

Ultra-large-scale systems add a second dimension to complexity and present additional challenges, especially with regard control, heterogeneity, and integration of human and artificial elements of the system. The Software Engineering Institute at Carnegie-Mellon University authored a definitive study — Ultra-Large-Scale Systems: The Software Challenge of the Future. The report concludes, “we require a broad new conception of both the nature of such systems and new ideas for how to develop them” and “The task of developing dependable software at the scope and scale of ULS systems will exceed the capabilities of software engineering methods that have evolved in the first 50 years of computing.”

Within SEI and CMU, there was a debate, for a while, with regards the last sentence. One side, characterized as the "systems of systems" people argued that software engineering would evolve methods to deal with ULS that nevertheless remained true to SE. Eventually, they, mostly, gave up that position.

Herbert Simon wrote, Sciences of the Artificial which captures the SE philosophy / mind set almost perfectly, and he denies that there is such a thing as a complex system.

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 12:20 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Ah. So. Very interesting.

So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?

Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it.

What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response

Frank,

I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.

Nick,

Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)

davew

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi, Dave,

I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C?

Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] alternative response

My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.

I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.

Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections

Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.

davew

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