Young but distant gallaxies
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Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over:
How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even dumber, are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they havent happened yet? I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis scales of time. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) > _______________________________________________ > Friam mailing list > [hidden email] > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 > ************************************ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to measure
distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure distance and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that have seemed to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making sense in several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and dark matter to bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps doing, adding "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse arises... and someone finally has to think up something completely new. If others don't come to the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a local individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no amount of good solutions for the problem will be recognized. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On > Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: > > How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even > dumber, > are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they havent > happened yet? > > I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis scales of > time. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([hidden email]) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Friam mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 > > ************************************ > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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As a new correspondent in the FRIAM family, would someone please explain,
with specifics, what particular emergent ideas are being referred to in the paragraph below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Henshaw" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]>; "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to measure > distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure distance > and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that have > seemed > to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making sense in > several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and dark matter to > bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps doing, adding > "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse arises... and > someone > finally has to think up something completely new. If others don't come > to > the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a local > individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no amount of > good > solutions for the problem will be recognized. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On >> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >> >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: >> >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even >> dumber, >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they havent >> happened yet? >> >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis scales of >> time. >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([hidden email]) >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Friam mailing list >> > [hidden email] >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > >> > >> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 >> > ************************************ >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant galaxies
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In reply to this post by Phil Henshaw-2
Recent accessible stuff from the "Emergent Gravity" conference here:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/emergent/ Review and some paper links here: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/08/emergent-gravity.html My favorite so far (emergent locality!) here: http://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0861v2 Emergence may not be local so much as locality may be emergent. C. Phil Henshaw wrote: > I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to measure > distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure distance > and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that have seemed > to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making sense in > several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and dark matter to > bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps doing, adding > "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse arises... and someone > finally has to think up something completely new. If others don't come to > the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a local > individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no amount of good > solutions for the problem will be recognized. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On >> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >> >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: >> >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even >> dumber, >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they havent >> happened yet? >> >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis scales of >> time. >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([hidden email]) >> >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Friam mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> >>> >>> End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 >>> ************************************ >>> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: > > How can they be so far away and yet so young? They are young because they are processes using old mater (from the big bang ultimately) and reforming. The bang had a baryon limit of 5, as I recall, making the early universe a sea of simple material. It later, via gravity, clumped into galaxies and stars. These processes were able to go beyond the baryon limit to create matter as we know it, including the matter of yourself, via stellar explosions/ novae. > Or, to put it even dumber, > are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they havent > happened yet? Well, what's "happen yet" mean within the realm of relativity and the finite speed of light? But we can see the cosmic background radiation which is remnant of the big bang. There certainly are constant creation of new things, many of which which emit light which has not yet reached us. > I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis scales > of > time. Not exactly. Its really about The Whole Shebang. > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([hidden email]) -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Nick,
Things that are further away are older (GR). It's just that the light coming from them has taken so long to get here. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:09 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: > > How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it > even dumber, > are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that > they havent happened yet? > > I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis > scales of time. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark > University ([hidden email]) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Friam mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 > > ************************************ > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Hi Jack, How did you enjoy Woody's presentation. The new convention center is great!
Phil who wrote the text you quote is slightly mad in my opinion, but interesting. Did you here from John Stinson? Paul ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
My apologies to Phil. My e-mail was intended only for Jack L. Paul
************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Jack Leibowitz
Jack -
First rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics. Second rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics Robert On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Jack Leibowitz <[hidden email]> wrote: As a new correspondent in the FRIAM family, would someone please explain, ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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I couldn't have said it better myself (generally).
Differently, perhaps, but not better. --Doug -- Doug Roberts, RTI International [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Kenneth Lloyd
Makes me wonder...if there were a large mirror 71.5 light years away could
we, in principle, with a powerful enough telescope, witness, say, the Gettysburg Address? Frank -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:40 PM To: [hidden email]; 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies Nick, Things that are further away are older (GR). It's just that the light coming from them has taken so long to get here. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:09 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: > > How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it > even dumber, > are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that > they havent happened yet? > > I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis > scales of time. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark > University ([hidden email]) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Friam mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 > > ************************************ > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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Interesting reflection, Frank.
--Doug On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote: Makes me wonder...if there were a large mirror 71.5 light years away could ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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Is the mirror accelerating? (trick question)
Douglas Roberts wrote: > Interesting reflection, Frank. > > --Doug > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Frank Wimberly > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > Makes me wonder...if there were a large mirror 71.5 light years > away could > we, in principle, with a powerful enough telescope, witness, say, the > Gettysburg Address? > > Frank > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly
You could, but you'll never get it there in time.
The moment of the Gettysburg Address is a nearly spherical---though slightly distorted---manifold expanding through space-time. Since that moment is traveling away at the speed of light, it's exactly on the light cone that originated on November 19, 1863 (and Earth's position in space at that time.) Catching up to that boundary would require some tricky engineering... usually involving massive, rotating, infinitely long cylinders. These are hard to procure, and likely to break your mirror. On the other hand, you could start a project today to station a mirror one light year away so you could reflect on events from two years past. In a less tongue-in-cheek scenario, we are seeing "light echoes" from supernova SN1987A. This is where light from the supernova that was initial emitted away from us either gets reflected by gas clouds, or excites the clouds into emitting their own light, which then comes back to us years after the event. So, light from SN1987A itself that travelled directly got here in, well, 1987. But light that went a 10 light years in the other direction, then got reflected back, is just reaching us now. This is giving us a fantastic "flash bulb" illumination of the nebular gas around the supernova. Similar light echoes can be observed in the Large Magellanic Cloud that probably originated from a supernova that occurred around 600 years ago. Cheers, -Michael Nygard On Sep 4, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Makes me wonder...if there were a large mirror 71.5 light years away > could > we, in principle, with a powerful enough telescope, witness, say, the > Gettysburg Address? > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] > On Behalf > Of Kenneth Lloyd > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:40 PM > To: [hidden email]; 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group' > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > Nick, > > Things that are further away are older (GR). It's just that the light > coming from them has taken so long to get here. > > Ken > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:09 AM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >> >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: >> >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it >> even dumber, >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that >> they havent happened yet? >> >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis >> scales of time. >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark >> University ([hidden email]) >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Friam mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> >>> >>> End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 >>> ************************************ >> >> >> ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Robert Holmes
An emergent idea is one relatively few people are paying attention to.
If we indulged in specifics, the ideas would cease to be emergent. So I think its kind of like we're using averted vision. A post that points out an emergent idea is not necessarily inviting a collective hot needle of inquiry on that idea, but instead is illuminating a potential cloud of nearby ones. Sometimes it also takes a bit of noise injection to figure out what's being discussed, so you see those kinds of posts too. So, if you are new, the conversation seems to jump around a lot. Takes a bit of getting used to. The main thing is to not think of the list primarily (though it does happen from time to time) a coherent narrative, but as a part of a larger environment of thought, readings and off line discussion. Carl Robert Holmes wrote: > Jack - > > First rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics. > Second rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics > > Robert > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Jack Leibowitz <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > As a new correspondent in the FRIAM family, would someone please > explain, > with specifics, what particular emergent ideas are being referred > to in the > paragraph below. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> > To: <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>>; "'The Friday Morning Applied > Complexity > Coffee Group'" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > > >I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to > measure > > distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure > distance > > and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that have > > seemed > > to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making > sense in > > several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and dark > matter to > > bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps doing, > adding > > "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse arises... and > > someone > > finally has to think up something completely new. If others > don't come > > to > > the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a local > > individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no > amount of > > good > > solutions for the problem will be recognized. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]> > [mailto:[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>] On > >> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM > >> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > >> > >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: > >> > >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even > >> dumber, > >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they > havent > >> happened yet? > >> > >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis > scales of > >> time. > >> > >> Nick > >> > >> Nicholas S. Thompson > >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > >> Clark University ([hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Friam mailing list > >> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > >> > > >> > > >> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 > >> > ************************************ > >> > >> > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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Are you happy with that prescription? It seems to me that when we talk
about physical phenomena and explanation- or attempts at same- we needn't discard the basic idea of a scientific statement: consistency with what is known and predictability and falsifiability for what is claimed. Otherwse, we can substitute God for all the other words, such as emergence, etc. I don't mean to discredit concepts such those related to "emergence", etc. Some beautiful possibilities may reside in that direction. But I hope it doesn't suggest to proponents that we can abandon being scientists and join the ranks of those not similarly constrained by understandings about what makes Science so fabulously successful. This doesn't mean strictly remaining with restraints belonging under the heading of that horrible word "reductionism". By this time, I think , I have overstayed my welcome. I do respect the good things the group does. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Tollander" <[hidden email]> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > An emergent idea is one relatively few people are paying attention to. > If we indulged in specifics, the ideas would cease to be emergent. > > So I think its kind of like we're using averted vision. A post that > points out an > emergent idea is not necessarily inviting a collective hot needle of > inquiry > on that idea, but instead is illuminating a potential cloud of nearby > ones. > Sometimes it also takes a bit of noise injection to figure out what's > being > discussed, so you see those kinds of posts too. > > So, if you are new, the conversation seems to jump around a lot. Takes > a bit of getting used to. The main thing is to not think of the list > primarily > (though it does happen from time to time) a coherent narrative, > but as a part of a larger environment of thought, readings and off line > discussion. > > Carl > > Robert Holmes wrote: >> Jack - >> >> First rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics. >> Second rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics >> >> Robert >> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Jack Leibowitz <[hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> As a new correspondent in the FRIAM family, would someone please >> explain, >> with specifics, what particular emergent ideas are being referred >> to in the >> paragraph below. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Phil Henshaw" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> >> To: <[hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>>; "'The Friday Morning Applied >> Complexity >> Coffee Group'" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >> >> >> >I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to >> measure >> > distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure >> distance >> > and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that >> have >> > seemed >> > to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making >> sense in >> > several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and dark >> matter to >> > bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps doing, >> adding >> > "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse arises... and >> > someone >> > finally has to think up something completely new. If others >> don't come >> > to >> > the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a local >> > individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no >> amount of >> > good >> > solutions for the problem will be recognized. >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: [hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]> >> [mailto:[hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>] On >> >> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM >> >> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >> >> >> >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: >> >> >> >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even >> >> dumber, >> >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they >> havent >> >> happened yet? >> >> >> >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis >> scales of >> >> time. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> >> Clark University ([hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Friam mailing list >> >> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 >> >> > ************************************ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ============================================================ >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Paul Paryski
I'll send you John's e-mail, which I've just
received.
Jack
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Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Robert Holmes
No Comment, beyond what I've already
said.
Jack
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Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Jack Leibowitz
Well, yes, though I still feel the notion was more descriptive than
prescriptive. The list is not the sole source for these topics, and I think we need to find new ways to think deeper faster. As I mentioned, it is part of a larger (and perhaps more recognizably scientific) set of processes. Resilient scientific and mathematical investigations have always needed a forum for a certain amount of dyonesian tinkering; it helps keep us from building castles in the air. Carl Science need not be opera; it must work on the folk level too. Jack Leibowitz wrote: > Are you happy with that prescription? It seems to me that when we talk > about physical phenomena and explanation- or attempts at same- we needn't > discard the basic idea of a scientific statement: consistency with what is > known and predictability and falsifiability for what is claimed. Otherwse, > we can substitute God for all the other words, such as emergence, etc. > > I don't mean to discredit concepts such those related to "emergence", etc. > Some beautiful possibilities may reside in that direction. But I hope it > doesn't suggest to proponents that we can abandon being scientists and join > the ranks of those not similarly constrained by understandings about what > makes Science so fabulously successful. > > This doesn't mean strictly remaining with restraints belonging under the > heading of that horrible word "reductionism". > > By this time, I think , I have overstayed my welcome. I do respect the good > things the group does. > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Tollander" <[hidden email]> > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > > >> An emergent idea is one relatively few people are paying attention to. >> If we indulged in specifics, the ideas would cease to be emergent. >> >> So I think its kind of like we're using averted vision. A post that >> points out an >> emergent idea is not necessarily inviting a collective hot needle of >> inquiry >> on that idea, but instead is illuminating a potential cloud of nearby >> ones. >> Sometimes it also takes a bit of noise injection to figure out what's >> being >> discussed, so you see those kinds of posts too. >> >> So, if you are new, the conversation seems to jump around a lot. Takes >> a bit of getting used to. The main thing is to not think of the list >> primarily >> (though it does happen from time to time) a coherent narrative, >> but as a part of a larger environment of thought, readings and off line >> discussion. >> >> Carl >> >> Robert Holmes wrote: >> >>> Jack - >>> >>> First rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics. >>> Second rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Jack Leibowitz <[hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >>> >>> As a new correspondent in the FRIAM family, would someone please >>> explain, >>> with specifics, what particular emergent ideas are being referred >>> to in the >>> paragraph below. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Phil Henshaw" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> >>> To: <[hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>; "'The Friday Morning Applied >>> Complexity >>> Coffee Group'" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >>> >>> >>> >I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to >>> measure >>> > distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure >>> distance >>> > and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that >>> have >>> > seemed >>> > to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making >>> sense in >>> > several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and dark >>> matter to >>> > bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps doing, >>> adding >>> > "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse arises... and >>> > someone >>> > finally has to think up something completely new. If others >>> don't come >>> > to >>> > the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a local >>> > individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no >>> amount of >>> > good >>> > solutions for the problem will be recognized. >>> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: [hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]> >>> [mailto:[hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]>] On >>> >> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson >>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM >>> >> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >>> >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies >>> >> >>> >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: >>> >> >>> >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it even >>> >> dumber, >>> >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that they >>> havent >>> >> happened yet? >>> >> >>> >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis >>> scales of >>> >> time. >>> >> >>> >> Nick >>> >> >>> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>> >> Clark University ([hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]>) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > Friam mailing list >>> >> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >>> >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 >>> >> > ************************************ >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ============================================================ >>> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ============================================================ >>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Young but distant gallaxies
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In reply to this post by Jack Leibowitz
Hi,
> This doesn't mean strictly remaining with restraints belonging under the > heading of that horrible word "reductionism". Why do you think that the word is horrible? (be specific please ;-) Cheers, Günther -- Günther Greindl Department of Philosophy of Science University of Vienna [hidden email] Blog: http://www.complexitystudies.org/ Thesis: http://www.complexitystudies.org/proposal/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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