[WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims|the Daily Mail

[Nick Thompson]

Carl,

I am trying to get my Psych 101 in order:  Was the kitty genovese incident
the one that led to that horrendous series of experiments that demonstrate
that if you give people a shock console (or what they THINK is a shock
console) and ask them politely to do so, they will cheerfully use shocks
that they think are lethal, just so long as they are told to?  

reminds me of the stoners that jg showed us at arrowhead, who would run out
from the crowd, throw a stone, and then sink back into the anonymity of the
crowd.  

Thought experiment:  if all humor were forbidden, would genocide be
possible???  In the Pleistocene context, with many small groups in
desperate conflict for unpredictable resources, what was humor FOR?  

N


> [Original Message]
> From: Carl Tollander <carl at plektyx.com>
> To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; <wedtech at redfish.com>
> Date: 5/24/2007 2:52:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid
offending Muslims|the Daily Mail

>
> Nick asks:
>   >Do we need a science of Comparative Genocideology?
>
> Closest I've seen that starts to address this is Chapter 15 from Philip
> Bobbit's book "The Shield of Achilles"
> titled "The Kitty Genovese Incident and the War in Bosnia".  I'll bring
> it by FRIAM.
>
> C.

[Michael Agar]

Nick--Once again, the wiki oracle speaks, or emits methane, or  
something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


On May 24, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I am trying to get my Psych 101 in order:  Was the kitty genovese  
> incident
> the one that led to that horrendous series of experiments that  
> demonstrate
> that if you give people a shock console (or what they THINK is a shock
> console) and ask them politely to do so, they will cheerfully use  
> shocks
> that they think are lethal, just so long as they are told to?
>
> reminds me of the stoners that jg showed us at arrowhead, who would  
> run out
> from the crowd, throw a stone, and then sink back into the  
> anonymity of the
> crowd.
>
> Thought experiment:  if all humor were forbidden, would genocide be
> possible???  In the Pleistocene context, with many small groups in
> desperate conflict for unpredictable resources, what was humor FOR?
>
> N
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Carl Tollander <carl at plektyx.com>
>> To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; <wedtech at redfish.com>
>> Date: 5/24/2007 2:52:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid
> offending Muslims|the Daily Mail
>>
>> Nick asks:
>>> Do we need a science of Comparative Genocideology?
>>
>> Closest I've seen that starts to address this is Chapter 15 from  
>> Philip
>> Bobbit's book "The Shield of Achilles"
>> titled "The Kitty Genovese Incident and the War in Bosnia".  I'll  
>> bring
>> it by FRIAM.
>>
>> C.
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Bill Eldridge]

Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> Carl,
>
> I am trying to get my Psych 101 in order:  Was the kitty genovese incident
> the one that led to that horrendous series of experiments that demonstrate
> that if you give people a shock console (or what they THINK is a shock
> console) and ask them politely to do so, they will cheerfully use shocks
> that they think are lethal, just so long as they are told to?  
>  
Unfortunately not - it's about how neighbors ignore horrible things
going on in their insular world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

What it really might represent is how facts are distorted to make events
look worse than they
are, especially when a newspaper's involved:

http://www.oldkewgardens.com/ss-nytimes-3.html

I use to live across from a bar, and one night I saw two guys squaring
off on a sidewalk and
a third come from behind and break a bottle over one's head. I was on
the phone to 911 in
a flash, and by the time I'd quickly described the scene unfolding to
the dispatcher, the 3 of them
were giving each other hugs and going arm-in-arm back into the bar to
drink some more.

In a similarly bad neighborhood where I flipped my bike and broke my
collarbone, I was
staggering around in a great deal of pain, but got a car to stop
(cautiously) late at night in just a few minutes,
and they were a great help in getting me to a hospital. Good Samaritans
still exist.

I'm intrigued by one line in the article, "But the same department
deliberately avoided teaching the Crusades
at Key Stage 3 (11- to 14-year-olds) because their balanced treatment of
the topic would have challenged
what was taught in some local mosques." It makes it sound like there's a
good balanced way of explaining
the Crusades as anything but a good deal of Euro-thuggery intent on
dealing a good come-uppance to
the well-entrenched local population some thousands of miles away. Would
make for good entertainment
to hear this rationale at least.

Personally, I think most grade school teachers are better off trying to
teach simpler, less contentious topics
well (even if ignoring whether Columbus was actually Catalonian and
other possibly interesting side issues)
instead of being too focused on fuzzy goals of teaching tolerance and
sensitivity, as if there were much
of that in history.

Regarding humor and genocide, I think of the Nazis as a pretty
humorless, mystical bunch.
Somehow it didn't seem to deter them from genocide.

> reminds me of the stoners that jg showed us at arrowhead, who would run out
> from the crowd, throw a stone, and then sink back into the anonymity of the
> crowd.  
>
> Thought experiment:  if all humor were forbidden, would genocide be
> possible???  In the Pleistocene context, with many small groups in
> desperate conflict for unpredictable resources, what was humor FOR?  
>
> N
>
>
>  
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Carl Tollander <carl at plektyx.com>
>> To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; <wedtech at redfish.com>
>> Date: 5/24/2007 2:52:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid
>>    
> offending Muslims|the Daily Mail
>  
>> Nick asks:
>>   >Do we need a science of Comparative Genocideology?
>>
>> Closest I've seen that starts to address this is Chapter 15 from Philip
>> Bobbit's book "The Shield of Achilles"
>> titled "The Kitty Genovese Incident and the War in Bosnia".  I'll bring
>> it by FRIAM.
>>
>> C.
>>    
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
>  

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[Matthew Francisco]

On 5/24/07, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Carl,
>
> I am trying to get my Psych 101 in order:  Was the kitty genovese incident
> the one that led to that horrendous series of experiments that demonstrate
> that if you give people a shock console (or what they THINK is a shock
> console) and ask them politely to do so, they will cheerfully use shocks


>From the few videos that I've seen of the experiments the subjects
were hardly cheerful in carrying out the order to shock, especially as
the shock-to-be-delivered was percieved to be increasing in intensity.
As far as related humor goes.
A few years back a group of art students at Carnegie Mellon (I thinkk)
conducted some art 'experiments' using a remote controlled
graffitti-writing vehicle.  In it they claimed that "in nearly 100% of
the cases a given agent of the public will willing participate in high
profile acts of vandalism given the opportunity to do so via mediated
robotic technology"
 (http://www.appliedautonomy.com/video/ContestationalRobotics_LAN.mov).
The key idea in all this is this concept of mediation.  The shock was
mediated by someone in authority and an shock apparatus.  If the
Miligram was asking the subject to take live wires to the skin of the
person to be shocked then I doubt his results would have been as
strong as they were.  As with graffiti writer, if you gave the group
of girl scouts a can of spray paint would they spray paint a 20ft
banner saying "girl scouts rule!!!!!!!!" on a public sidewalk?

> that they think are lethal, just so long as they are told to?
>
> reminds me of the stoners that jg showed us at arrowhead, who would run out
> from the crowd, throw a stone, and then sink back into the anonymity of the
> crowd.
>
> Thought experiment:  if all humor were forbidden, would genocide be
> possible???  In the Pleistocene context, with many small groups in
> desperate conflict for unpredictable resources, what was humor FOR?
>
> N
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Carl Tollander <carl at plektyx.com>
> > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; <wedtech at redfish.com>
> > Date: 5/24/2007 2:52:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid
> offending       Muslims|the Daily Mail
> >
> > Nick asks:
> >   >Do we need a science of Comparative Genocideology?
> >
> > Closest I've seen that starts to address this is Chapter 15 from Philip
> > Bobbit's book "The Shield of Achilles"
> > titled "The Kitty Genovese Incident and the War in Bosnia".  I'll bring
> > it by FRIAM.
> >
> > C.
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>