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Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

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Nick Thompson

Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Gillian Densmore

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Nick know if Ting is doing fiber optic?

Also do you know if that about 1G pers a second is both direction?

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Gill,

Look at their website and all will be answered.

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

or thereabouts.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 2:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Nick know if Ting is doing fiber optic?

Also do you know if that about 1G pers a second is both direction?

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Gillian Densmore

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Huh

Looks cool.

I can't wait for Santa Fe's internet options to stop sucking.

.It's 2016 no sane or sober person should put up with the kinds of crappy internet options NM has.

Hell it's 2016 fiber to the home shoulda been a thing a long bliping time ago all across the country.including every single home in NM.

Anyway thanks for the heads up ^_^

The sooner Ting's very yummy looking set up gets here the better. ^_^

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Gill,

Look at their website and all will be answered.

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/
or thereabouts.

n

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 2:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Nick know if Ting is doing fiber optic?
Also do you know if that about 1G pers a second is both direction?

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Edward Angel

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of the reasons:

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about $60/month for 80 mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally irrelevant.

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a “public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they (Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance.

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa Fe, especially the school kids.

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/). There’s lots of information there about what is going on here and in other communities by people who have many years of experience working on these issues.

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Gillian Densmore

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Hit the nail on the head there Ed!

I think some good can come out of this conversation. Mostly saying. Oh Santa Fe has made a bunch of really crappy choices related to having fun, cool and CHEAP internet.

I suspect ultimatly the fix will come from a combination of things. First mile seems to be tackling the rules and parts suff. So mabie one othe other parts a clever people trying to plan and build some realy fast internet?

I guess what I want to come out in text is this sounds like a problem that's been an issue since at least I've lived in Santa Fe.

I have no idea why on earth someone or a bunch of someones didn't put together some Kick Blip internet way before then.

What I see as the issue with DSL is basically almost anything I need to do with online stuff it's not reely the right tool. Where as Cable or Fiber would be.

Also kind of sucks for Schools, Mesums, and basically any place doing Science and Tech to have crappy internet

So then we get into a chicken and Egg.

How do we get say a research campus or fun place like that into Santa Fe if the parts aren't there, But something like that might be what is needed to get cheep rocking internet and science and all the fun stuff with it. (for example)

Yeah we might not need gigabyte speed internet now. I'd think it'd work better for a while than speeds cable provides.

SPECULATION:

I wonder if something at Gigabyte speeds that doesn't need a bunch of wire would work even better.
Mostly because once don't require a reely long wire can get fast internet all over the place, anywhere there's a box shouting out here be Bazzinga speed internet.

Might be cheeper because you can lots and lots of them all over the place with out needing to make what amounts to building a big ol LAN party.
Thus win-win for the most part.

Anyway it's Sunday, it sounds like a bunch of clever people are re-visting the quirky state of Santa Fe and InfoNet problems. I'd like to see that part get improved enormously.

I proclaim to everyone

Much Myth!

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of the reasons:

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about $60/month for 80 mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally irrelevant.

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a “public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they (Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance.

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa Fe, especially the school kids.

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/). There’s lots of information there about what is going on here and in other communities by people who have many years of experience working on these issues.

Ed

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
<a href="tel:505-984-0136" value="+15059840136" target="_blank">505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
<a href="tel:505-453-4944" value="+15054534944" target="_blank">505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

Hi, Ed,

Very interesting!

I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic development. Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and assuming per argumentum that it does work, HOW does it work? In practice, who uses gigabyte speed, and for what? Let’s say I am a small business in Santa Fe making Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services. Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I couldn’t do before? I assume that if there is a group of people in the World capable of giving that issue a good airing, it would be this list. I would particularly like to hear from members in far-flung places that have this sort of service. Is it available in Europe?

Allow me to put the Luddite position. Here’s a quote adapted from Julian Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.

“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific advance without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to LOG ON, meet and be stupid together.”

My Inner Luddite assumes that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming and movie downloads. He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.

How is he wrong about this? Can somebody make the case?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of the reasons:

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“My Inner Luddite assumes that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming and movie downloads. He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.”

Most companies make some effort to protect their information resources. One way they do this is with virtual private networks (VPNs). Working remotely means that these VPNs need to be efficient, and one weak link in this chain is the underlying network connection to the remote location. So, if you live in podunk New Mexico, where the network connectivity is poor, and get a job for an Albuquerque or out-of-state firm and need to work remotely (because you couldn’t possibly afford to move to somewhere with a higher cost of living), then you are at a clear disadvantage in doing your work. The company’s applications will flake out or become unresponsive while your colleagues (competitors) who are on site will progress on their work.

Now one might argue that their network connections might not flake out if it were not for those idiots playing their pointless games and idling themselves watching movies – all while clogging up the little bandwidth that there is. But given that people do that, it seems like a having some headroom would be a good thing.

Marcus

Edward Angel

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

I agree with Marcus’ comments.

In addition, lack of a competitive broadband infrastructure contributes to the reasons it is so difficult to get companies to come to NM although the terrible schools probably override all the other reasons. Of course better broadband could only help with the schools.

At present netflix and other streaming activities like games eat up network bandwidth but as almost all applications become cloud based, the demand for bandwidth for other purposes (backup, computing, word processing) will certainly go up but it seems to a ways off before most people will need gigabit connectivity. I’d worry more about the underlying infrastructure more than whether my connection is via cable or fiber.

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
http://artslab.unm.edu

http://sfcomplex.org

On Mar 6, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Ed,

Very interesting!

I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic development. Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and assuming per argumentumthat it does work, HOW does it work? In practice, who uses gigabyte speed, and for what? Let’s say I am a small business in Santa Fe making Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services. Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I couldn’t do before? I assume that if there is a group of people in the World capable of giving that issue a good airing, it would be this list. I would particularly like to hear from members in far-flung places that have this sort of service. Is it available in Europe?

Allow me to put the Luddite position. Here’s a quote adapted from Julian Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.
“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific advance without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to LOG ON, meet and be stupid together.”
My Inner Luddite assumes that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming and movie downloads. He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.

How is he wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of the reasons:

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about $60/month for 80 mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally irrelevant.

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a “public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they (Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance.

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa Fe, especially the school kids.

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/). There’s lots of information there about what is going on here and in other communities by people who have many years of experience working on these issues.

Ed
_______________________

Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)                                 [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell)                                     http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Ed,

Continuing in my Luddite mode:

What on earth does one need broad band for to do word processing? (See below).

You do point to one use that even Luddites might make use of … backup. Having cloud backup was all very well until I realized that recovery from a crash would require 8 light years to accomplish given my connection to the Cloud. Consequently, I had to I spent a whole week huddled by an Ethernet port at my university getting my data back. And that, of course, was not an image, so then I spent another three weeks getting my software up and running again. It was the summer from hell. I guess broad band might have made it possible for me to store an image of my hard drive and bypass all of that?

Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 12:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

I agree with Marcus’ comments.

At present netflix and other streaming activities like games eat up network bandwidth but as almost all applications become cloud based, the demand for bandwidth for other purposes (backup, computing, word processing) will certainly go up but it seems to a ways off before most people will need gigabit connectivity. I’d worry more about the underlying infrastructure more than whether my connection is via cable or fiber.

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
http://artslab.unm.edu

http://sfcomplex.org

On Mar 6, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Ed,

Very interesting!

I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic development. Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and assuming per argumentumthat it does work, HOW does it work? In practice, who uses gigabyte speed, and for what? Let’s say I am a small business in Santa Fe making Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services. Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I couldn’t do before? I assume that if there is a group of people in the World capable of giving that issue a good airing, it would be this list. I would particularly like to hear from members in far-flung places that have this sort of service. Is it available in Europe?

Allow me to put the Luddite position. Here’s a quote adapted from Julian Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.
“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific advance without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to LOG ON, meet and be stupid together.”
My Inner Luddite assumes that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming and movie downloads. He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.

How is he wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of the reasons:

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about $60/month for 80 mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally irrelevant.

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a “public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they (Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance.

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa Fe, especially the school kids.

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/). There’s lots of information there about what is going on here and in other communities by people who have many years of experience working on these issues.

Ed
_______________________

Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)                                 [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell)                                     http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet. This is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to the user that has a super cheap device. This is useful in glove box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

Nick Thompson

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

Gillian Densmore

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

Other sides worth considering are

-Time: No one sane or sober should put up with the amount of time it takes DSL to do anything online. At present when I when I want to wach videos on a MOOC that range from as small as 4 minuts to as long as 20 it's AT LEAST 20 minutes to wait for the damn things to cache enough to wach with out pausing all the damn time.

-Time: You want to cach up on the news? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHHAHAHAHA I hate to laugh but that is an excersize in pain.

-Time because right now any kind paches and fixes to everything software related over right now like pulling a bowling ball through your ears.

-Time Because it just plain sucks that a bunch of people are being gaint jerks (it's sunday) any won't admit it just sucks to have DSL to the home.

Time Because you probably have other things to do in the day than HOPE what ever you want to do won't take so damn long it's a all day Adventure.

-It's just the right and possibly fun thing to do! I for one don't particularly care who said who had coodese. I do find the situtation amusing and on the other side of the screen are smiling and just saying:

In MY experience it bliping sucks. So what can I personally do about it? It just sucks that the other day some lady was almost to tears because she was rightfully concerned she lost some pictures, and my damn remote session to help her was a slide show.

-It's election season. So if a Tech minded congressman or senator or whoever wants a snowballs chance on Kronos to get elected they better have a plan for NM's tech and internet.

-Election season meens they can realisticly put it there agenda.

-Funding-

It's tricky to get funding for ventures here. But it's pleasently straitforward to do so (sort of).

-BAZZINGA!-

Software these days gets bug fixes fast. Those aint small. I speak to personel experience. Mint and Ubunto rock. But those updates need to come to me somehow.

-Hard drives suck-

It sucks WAY more to loose your stuff. The cloud rocks. But backups with what I have take a while. It's great my internet is rock solid and just works though.

During snow or any kind of thunder storm My personal experience is that my internet and cell service when I may need to get people that know way more about cars Force Be With me that Bob doesn't need me because he's justifably woried about 999 issues and just wants a friendly face.

Right now? and kind of magnetic interference makes that impossible

That has to come to an end. The sooner the better.

We right now frankly are bent over and take in the Blip with any sort of tech. NM is on bliping DSL. a 80's tech. I know I was proudly selected to be a DSL tester for cable co-op Palo Alto. Then an ADSL tester. I had a modem that looked like something someone would show point to at Ten-Forward while two young techies tell me about the phasing system over a cop of Xalaria.

I think CyberMesa Kicks ass. But I think they can do way better

Do we N-Need Gigabyte speed infra now? Hell yes we do! It has to come along with improvements to this fun quant quirkt town located in Eureka, where right now at Qazzars you can here Einstein and Tesela argue over wich Dark Toom to go on safari to first.

And why not?

ELEPHENTS IN THE ROOM:

Can I speculate about what people on this list seem to be dancing around?

SPECULATION?

Cox is self named because there service sucks ass, and is fucking expensive, they're a bunch of dicks as far as I can tell so no one goes with them for long.

Coolness!

Option B:

CyberMesa rocks: DSL for the most part. But they simply rock! KFA reliablity prices, great techies etc.

So I for one have had enough of the...ONE option.

Where is the OTHER option? Ya know the one where get bad ass portable Networking worthy of the name 2016 Bazzinga speeds where you find yourself screaming: To infinity and beyond? ? oO

ELEPENTS IN THE ROOM:
People don't want DSL because it's slow for what I suspect they do. and frankly no one sane or sober should put up with DSL they want options that don't suck:

-They want to run bit-torrent to nab TV or radio shows that aren't availble. that other desnmore wants carde-blanch style tv and no cord.

-Techies like to The Piratebay, Abadnbay, InternetArchieve and Linux to get stuff that simply aint avilable.

So if I may paint a picture of why I suspect Friam somewhere between Frustrated and Infurated with tech in NM:

They want the option to to do backups, hack node+colejet+javascript(or Bazzinga/ Brithon.IO), work from home and smoke me a kipper done by lunch to go get stoned and melt in the absurdly beteutiful suny beaches of SoCal like Orange County or CrystalCove, some prefer Montera or Olympea WA. while chilling and waxing poetic and talking about over a half a beer or two all while talking about the BlimpCataptains with two wonderfully energetic nephiews.

You can't have that kind of lifestyle and fucking expensive and unreliable comcast/cox. It takes to damn long over CyberMesa.

Bring on Ting. PowerGrid, StarNet and anyone else that is game to take on the challenge! ^_^

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with Marcus’ comments.

In addition, lack of a competitive broadband infrastructure contributes to the reasons it is so difficult to get companies to come to NM although the terrible schools probably override all the other reasons. Of course better broadband could only help with the schools.

At present netflix and other streaming activities like games eat up network bandwidth but as almost all applications become cloud based, the demand for bandwidth for other purposes (backup, computing, word processing) will certainly go up but it seems to a ways off before most people will need gigabit connectivity. I’d worry more about the underlying infrastructure more than whether my connection is via cable or fiber.

Ed

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
<a href="tel:505-984-0136" value="+15059840136" target="_blank">505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
<a href="tel:505-453-4944" value="+15054534944" target="_blank">505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
http://artslab.unm.edu
http://sfcomplex.org

On Mar 6, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Ed,

Very interesting!

I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic development. Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and assuming per argumentumthat it does work, HOW does it work? In practice, who uses gigabyte speed, and for what? Let’s say I am a small business in Santa Fe making Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services. Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I couldn’t do before? I assume that if there is a group of people in the World capable of giving that issue a good airing, it would be this list. I would particularly like to hear from members in far-flung places that have this sort of service. Is it available in Europe?

Allow me to put the Luddite position. Here’s a quote adapted from Julian Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.
“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific advance without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to LOG ON, meet and be stupid together.”
My Inner Luddite assumes that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming and movie downloads. He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.

How is he wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of the reasons:

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about $60/month for 80 mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally irrelevant.

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a “public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they (Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance.

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa Fe, especially the school kids.

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/). There’s lots of information there about what is going on here and in other communities by people who have many years of experience working on these issues.

Ed
_______________________

Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
<a href="tel:505-984-0136" value="+15059840136" target="_blank">505-984-0136 (home)                                 [hidden email]
<a href="tel:505-453-4944" value="+15054534944" target="_blank">505-453-4944 (cell)                                     http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this thing could possibly work. Fibre? Really?

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

Look at the second item in the blog. Apparently they have an interesting “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA. They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.

Also, at the city level, one can express interest. See https://ting.com/internet/townvote

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth. That’s the speed that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like they are really local. So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on a beefy machine. Further, the app never has to be installed or updated. The host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

Gillian Densmore

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Huh this zero client thing reminds me of a X11 stunt Skunkworks had. Basically a computer (Fred) could somehow talk to other computers so that what ever you did was just like it was right there on Ruby, John or who evers computer. It rocked!

My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth. That’s the speed that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like they are really local. So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on a beefy machine. Further, the app never has to be installed or updated. The host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet. This is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to the user that has a super cheap device. This is useful in glove box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

There are a variety of technologies, ranging from Ethernet-based frame buffer device drivers (Userful for Linux), to extended RDP protocols (RemoteFX for Windows). Google Chromecast or the NetFlix capabilities integrated into Smart TVs are similar, although they are more oriented toward delivery of compressed video streams where users don’t care so much about artifacts. Latency is more of a problem for interactive use. It doesn’t matter if a video stream for television is delayed by a second, but it is impossible to use such a thing for a desktop computer or most games. Services like Playstation Now (simple protocols integrated into new televisions) have to deal with latency. High performance networking needs to deal with not just bandwidth (download times), but also reducing latency.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth. That’s the speed that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like they are really local. So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on a beefy machine. Further, the app never has to be installed or updated. The host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet. This is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to the user that has a super cheap device. This is useful in glove box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan. He says, “Are any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner Luddite?! It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok. But are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

Like all Puritans, my Inner Luddite has a filthy imagination. Let us imagine a new genre of interactive pornography which requires 1 gig responsivity. Let’s imagine that a marketing survey shows that 60 percent of high band width use will consist of interactive pornography. Is the mayor of Plymouth Massachusetts obligated to facilitate the installation of 1 gig service in her town?

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth. That’s the speed that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like they are really local. So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on a beefy machine. Further, the app never has to be installed or updated. The host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet. This is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to the user that has a super cheap device. This is useful in glove box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Actually my inner nihilist says, “Who gives a damn about your moral urgency?”

No one is obligated to do anything in this situation. The advocates get what they want, or fail to.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan. He says, “Are any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner Luddite?! It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok. But are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth. That’s the speed that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like they are really local. So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on a beefy machine. Further, the app never has to be installed or updated. The host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet. This is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to the user that has a super cheap device. This is useful in glove box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

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Nick Thompson

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Hi, Marcus,

Wait. Hang on. I was actually trying to present arguments in a colorful way, not being personal. I hope you saw that. I wasn’t trying to characterize you, or anybody else, really. Not even me. I am not my Inner Luddite. At least, I hope not.

My fantasy about “interactive pornography” was not directed toward any person, but was an attempt to stimulate the network neutrality discussion at the Municipal level. I was interested in stimulating the list to discuss the question:

Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally

I actually don’t know what I think about that question, which is why I want to hear it discussed. Is there any legitimate argument to be made for the equivalent of “emergency vehicles” on the “information super-highway”? Or HOV lanes. Is there really no way to distinguish between work and entertainment?

Any time a City issues a bond or appropriates funds, it constitutes a collective action, right? So then, collective benefit presumably comes into play, if only of the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” kind. So then, we get to make arguments about the relative benefits to a community (or the individuals in it) of different potential allocations. That’s all I meant by “moral urgency”, when push comes to shove. I suppose from Ting’s point of view, it’s all irrelevant. The more use the better.

Again my apologies for being annoying. You have made several very helpful contributions to this thread, and I would hate to lose you.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Actually my inner nihilist says, “Who gives a damn about your moral urgency?”

No one is obligated to do anything in this situation. The advocates get what they want, or fail to.

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan. He says, “Are any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner Luddite?! It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok. But are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth. That’s the speed that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like they are really local. So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on a beefy machine. Further, the app never has to be installed or updated. The host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet. This is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to the user that has a super cheap device. This is useful in glove box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as everything is centralized.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

gepr

Re: Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

I doubt Marcus took your e-mail personally. I think he was making a standard point about obligation and advocacy.

Your idea of dividing bandwidth in the same (or similar) ways things like roads or power might be divided is interesting, though. All of the precision you raise can be done. Our laws surrounding things like HOV lanes or even luxury taxes would apply to network bandwidth _if_ our legislators and the public would take the time to learn what it all means. ... reminds me of this kerfuffle:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/01/friends-please-tell-t-mobiles-ceo-about-eff

On 03/07/2016 11:55 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally
>
> I actually don’t know what I think about that question, which is why I want to hear it discussed. Is there any legitimate argument to be made for the equivalent of “emergency vehicles” on the “information super-highway”? Or HOV lanes. Is there really no way to distinguish between work and entertainment?
>
> Any time a City issues a bond or appropriates funds, it constitutes a collective action, right? So then, collective benefit presumably comes into play, if only of the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” kind. So then, we get to make arguments about the relative benefits to a community (or the individuals in it) of different potential allocations. That’s all I meant by “moral urgency”, when push comes to shove. I suppose from Ting’s point of view, it’s all irrelevant. The more use the better.
>
> Again my apologies for being annoying. You have made several very helpful contributions to this thread, and I would hate to lose you.

--
⇔ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen