Friam

Thoughts on the Floyd protests

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jon zingale

Thoughts on the Floyd protests

Like many of you and from an armchair, I am watching protests in
the streets. I am watching calls for the defunding of our police, and
surprisingly painful responses on all sides. The whole affair leaves
me to wonder:

1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?

2. While there appear to be some videos of police chiefs talking to
crowds through megaphones, should I expect to see interviews with
police on podcasts or in other more intimate domains? Are commentators
making a mistake in treating the thoughts and opinions of police officers,
as individuals, as if they were swarming black boxes?

3. Protests are announced with more than a day's notice. Police,
it would seem, are aware and anticipating participation in these public
events. What do the text messages between police officers look like in
the days leading up to some of the more horrific scenes?

4. Are any of us good enough friends with a police officer such that we
could invite one to talk about these events on an upcoming Friday?

I cannot help but be upset by what I am seeing, and yet there do not
seem to be meaningful steps taken by those that can affect transparency
or promote sanity.

Jon

--
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

I have a developing friendship with a retired Captain of SWAT for the Pennsylvania State Police. He's relatively young, does a fair amount of public speaking, and has a consulting firm that teaches "police Spanish" to interested departments. We are both members of a group that meets once a week (currently Zoom) to practice Spanish conversation. I could ask him if he'd be interested.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 5:28 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Like many of you and from an armchair, I am watching protests in
the streets. I am watching calls for the defunding of our police, and
surprisingly painful responses on all sides. The whole affair leaves
me to wonder:

1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?

2. While there appear to be some videos of police chiefs talking to
crowds through megaphones, should I expect to see interviews with
police on podcasts or in other more intimate domains? Are commentators
making a mistake in treating the thoughts and opinions of police officers,
as individuals, as if they were swarming black boxes?

3. Protests are announced with more than a day's notice. Police,
it would seem, are aware and anticipating participation in these public
events. What do the text messages between police officers look like in
the days leading up to some of the more horrific scenes?

4. Are any of us good enough friends with a police officer such that we
could invite one to talk about these events on an upcoming Friday?

I cannot help but be upset by what I am seeing, and yet there do not
seem to be meaningful steps taken by those that can affect transparency
or promote sanity.

Jon

--
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gepr

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

Yes. Please ask. And warn that we might be mildly antagonistic. 8^)

On June 9, 2020 5:20:55 PM PDT, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I have a developing friendship with a retired Captain of SWAT for the
>Pennsylvania State Police. He's relatively young, does a fair amount
>of
>public speaking, and has a consulting firm that teaches "police
>Spanish" to
>interested departments. We are both members of a group that meets once
>a
>week (currently Zoom) to practice Spanish conversation. I could ask
>him if
>he'd be interested.

--
glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Of all public services that one is about last on my list.
For officers that get laid off, they can go work for private security firms and they'll likely make more money.
Not seeing the downside at the moment.

Marcus

On 6/9/20, 4:28 PM, "Friam on behalf of Jon Zingale" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

Like many of you and from an armchair, I am watching protests in
the streets. I am watching calls for the defunding of our police, and
surprisingly painful responses on all sides. The whole affair leaves
me to wonder:

1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?

2. While there appear to be some videos of police chiefs talking to
crowds through megaphones, should I expect to see interviews with
police on podcasts or in other more intimate domains? Are commentators
making a mistake in treating the thoughts and opinions of police officers,
as individuals, as if they were swarming black boxes?

3. Protests are announced with more than a day's notice. Police,
it would seem, are aware and anticipating participation in these public
events. What do the text messages between police officers look like in
the days leading up to some of the more horrific scenes?

4. Are any of us good enough friends with a police officer such that we
could invite one to talk about these events on an upcoming Friday?

I cannot help but be upset by what I am seeing, and yet there do not
seem to be meaningful steps taken by those that can affect transparency
or promote sanity.

Jon

--
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David Eric Smith

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

John Oliver, several days ago, offered some information on the subject at a time when I had still seen none of any interpretive substance in the NYT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

I have since seen a couple of articles that make an effort to sketch what is really under discussion, and to estimate how much of the sound-bite output is shorthand for serious discussions, and which parts are bandwagoning, posturing, or noise.

There seems to be an ocean of material out there, whether books, video programs, or articles, that tries to get at elements of causation that tie our current system together in this dysfunctional tension, and at least a part of that work seems to be produced intelligently and in good faith. There should be plenty for thoughtful people to join into, to try to get clearer on what things can be changed unilaterally, which things can only be changed jointly if they are to be robust, and in that way what a design would look like to get from where we are to a country that was not so savage in so many ways.

Eric

On Jun 10, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Of all public services that one is about last on my list.
For officers that get laid off, they can go work for private security firms and they'll likely make more money.
Not seeing the downside at the moment.

Marcus

On 6/9/20, 4:28 PM, "Friam on behalf of Jon Zingale" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

   Like many of you and from an armchair, I am watching protests in
   the streets. I am watching calls for the defunding of our police, and
   surprisingly painful responses on all sides. The whole affair leaves
   me to wonder:

   1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
   to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
   follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
   If so, what will accountability be?

   2. While there appear to be some videos of police chiefs talking to
   crowds through megaphones, should I expect to see interviews with
   police on podcasts or in other more intimate domains? Are commentators
   making a mistake in treating the thoughts and opinions of police officers,
   as individuals, as if they were swarming black boxes?

   3. Protests are announced with more than a day's notice. Police,
   it would seem, are aware and anticipating participation in these public
   events. What do the text messages between police officers look like in
   the days leading up to some of the more horrific scenes?

   4. Are any of us good enough friends with a police officer such that we
   could invite one to talk about these events on an upcoming Friday?

   I cannot help but be upset by what I am seeing, and yet there do not
   seem to be meaningful steps taken by those that can affect transparency
   or promote sanity.

   Jon

   --
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Prof David West

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, at 7:20 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Of all public services that one is about last on my list.
> For officers that get laid off, they can go work for private security
> firms and they'll likely make more money.
> Not seeing the downside at the moment.
>
> Marcus
>
> On 6/9/20, 4:28 PM, "Friam on behalf of Jon Zingale"
> <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Like many of you and from an armchair, I am watching protests in
> the streets. I am watching calls for the defunding of our police, and
> surprisingly painful responses on all sides. The whole affair leaves
> me to wonder:
>
> 1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
> to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
> follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
> If so, what will accountability be?
>
> 2. While there appear to be some videos of police chiefs talking to
> crowds through megaphones, should I expect to see interviews with
> police on podcasts or in other more intimate domains? Are commentators
> making a mistake in treating the thoughts and opinions of police officers,
> as individuals, as if they were swarming black boxes?
>
> 3. Protests are announced with more than a day's notice. Police,
> it would seem, are aware and anticipating participation in these public
> events. What do the text messages between police officers look like in
> the days leading up to some of the more horrific scenes?
>
> 4. Are any of us good enough friends with a police officer such that we
> could invite one to talk about these events on an upcoming Friday?
>
> I cannot help but be upset by what I am seeing, and yet there do not
> seem to be meaningful steps taken by those that can affect transparency
> or promote sanity.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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>

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

I think the point is that are already not accountable. Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives.

On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, at 7:20 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Of all public services that one is about last on my list.
> For officers that get laid off, they can go work for private security
> firms and they'll likely make more money.
> Not seeing the downside at the moment.
>
> Marcus
>
> On 6/9/20, 4:28 PM, "Friam on behalf of Jon Zingale"
> <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Like many of you and from an armchair, I am watching protests in
> the streets. I am watching calls for the defunding of our police, and
> surprisingly painful responses on all sides. The whole affair leaves
> me to wonder:
>
> 1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
> to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
> follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
> If so, what will accountability be?
>
> 2. While there appear to be some videos of police chiefs talking to
> crowds through megaphones, should I expect to see interviews with
> police on podcasts or in other more intimate domains? Are commentators
> making a mistake in treating the thoughts and opinions of police officers,
> as individuals, as if they were swarming black boxes?
>
> 3. Protests are announced with more than a day's notice. Police,
> it would seem, are aware and anticipating participation in these public
> events. What do the text messages between police officers look like in
> the days leading up to some of the more horrific scenes?
>
> 4. Are any of us good enough friends with a police officer such that we
> could invite one to talk about these events on an upcoming Friday?
>
> I cannot help but be upset by what I am seeing, and yet there do not
> seem to be meaningful steps taken by those that can affect transparency
> or promote sanity.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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>

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gepr

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

We have evidence of it, here:

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.

On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I think the point is that are already not accountable. Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives.
>
>> On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?
>> On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
>>> 1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
>>> to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
>>> follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
>>> If so, what will accountability be?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Steve Smith

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

<dookey splatter alert>
> As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.
I think there's a whole subgenre of porn for that... some of it starts
with a singing telegram?

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gepr

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

There's one in every room, at every party. Someone must make the fart joke. I'm glad you took the hit for the team.

On 6/10/20 10:46 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.
> I think there's a whole subgenre of porn for that... some of it starts
> with a singing telegram?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

Yes, a cop appearing in social media post (proudly) with an
anti-government (implied-to-by) violent group in uniform is at least
tone-deaf.

So is making a fart joke in the middle of a serious discussion... mea
culpa.

> There's one in every room, at every party. Someone must make the fart joke. I'm glad you took the hit for the team.
>
> On 6/10/20 10:46 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>>> As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.
>> I think there's a whole subgenre of porn for that... some of it starts
>> with a singing telegram?
>

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Steve Smith

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts... on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already. When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that? There are lots of *other* vacuums/rifts/holes being formed as our culture heaves and buckles a little under a series of shifts. I'm not sure what (if any) are root causes and what are just cascades and reactions. Globalism, NeoLiberalism, Authoritarinism, Fascism, Manic Hypercaptialism, Rapid Technological Change, Hyper Connectedness, Information Overload, etc.

Many believe that shifting funding from law enforcement (which is by definition more reactionary than preventative?) to mental and social services which are intended to be more strongly pro-active in preventing the kinds of problems that the police often have to remediate down the road, is a net gain and possibly something that could be effected very quickly, even if positive results may lag in many cases. I don't know how well that works for/with hardened criminals who've already been taken from being under-nourished, under-respected, under-opportunitied youth through a series of trainings as a gang member first on the streets, and then inside prison for several stints, annealed and tempered by police, judges, prison-guards and one's fellow travelers to a strong core with a wicked-sharp edge. But maybe if her mother and younger siblings aren't struggling to keep groceries in the fridge and the fridge running then maybe she can mature into something a little kinder-gentler. Or maybe she already has, but it is hard to recognize when the only interface she has is a regular stop-and-frisking? I think we do see a record of mellowing among aging hard-cores who survive long enough to become elders in their communities?

I think Jon?s suggestion that private security will fill the vacuum is also valid. More people will gate their communities and more gated communities will add uniformed patrols and more uniformed patrols will add lethal weapons and training. The next George Floyd might be your massage therapist who made the mistake of making house-calls to your gated community while black/brown/yellow/red/poor and the next Chauvin & Co will be guys who couldn't even get IN to the police academy but COULD buy mirror-shades, a loaded up batman utility belt, matching chromed .45s with shoulder holsters, an Armalite 15 and a riot-style shotgun (but not rubber nor armor-piercing rounds, those are for law-enforcement-only) to carry in their ominously painted and hopped up SUV with run flat tires, a push-bumper, blinky lights and a siren. And that tricked out rig, security "professional" included, will cost a fraction of what a *real* law enforcement officer would BECAUSE of the lack of oversight/training/benefits, etc. A new branch: UBERArmed?

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

Personally, I'm more interested in how to use this Svaha/Liminal moment to "Visualize World Peace"? And what is in *that* adjacent possible (ensemble)? There is value to a Red-Team/Blue-Team analysis in these situations, and I think *both* are necessary. Awfulizing isn't the only thing to be doing right now. Things are shifting, vacuums are created, playing-fields are being re-leveled... are there opportunities to "do the right thing", or is "the right thing" so subjective that we will simply "move the noise around"? I identify as a humanist... I don't even know if that means what it used to (to others) or if I'm in anything like a "silent majority" in that identification. Maybe the Anarchists and Libertarians and Radical Progressives and Radical Conservatives and ??? all think THEY are humanists. Or maybe it's a bad word to them? I certainly remember my self-righteous Catholic M-in-Law spitting the words "Secular Humanist" as if they were acid, leaving smoking, corroding spots everywhere they landed.

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

We have evidence of it, here: 

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.


On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives.

On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:

    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?
On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:

1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?

gepr

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

I've thought that Portland's "street response team" [†] is a good idea that addresses much of this, at least if the idea is taken seriously and extrapolated. It helps address the militarization of police by allowing the police to be/stay that way, but then NOT sending police out for everything. The composition of the response team can be dynamic, maybe even self-organizing to some extent. And if it were extrapolated to (e.g.) groups like CERT (of which Renee' was a member back in Oregon), neighborhood watch, suburban/corporate security services, etc. it could be a serious approach to "defunding" the police. (Defund in quotes because it's not really defunding them, just changing the way it's all organized.)

[†] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/amid-spike-in-911-calls-tied-to-homelessness-street-roots-pitches-response-teams/283-cb0ee8bc-f0e1-4c22-984e-f1c0244e9a7a

On 6/10/20 2:58 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts... on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already. When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

In the 20 years I lived in Santa Fe, I had one interaction with a police officer when a likely drug addict tried to break into the house. When we got home, my large dog was teetering up in a window sill about ready to break through the window. I reported it to the police, even though I wasn’t even going to file a claim about it. What I got for my effort was a petulant, authoritarian young man that instructed me how I should contain my dog during his visit. (Dog was not being aggressive.) The officer was more threatening than the `criminal’. Piss off, officer. Oh, there was also the bikers that would ride into parking circle out where I lived in Arroyo Hondo, to party with the neighbor. They were loud and sometimes a little menacing. But it never would have occurred to me to call the police on them. That would just be antagonistic.

The so-called public support services of the city can be witnessed down at the public library. Every homeless person comes through the library sooner or later. They come for the shelter, and other amenities like the possibility of watching porn on the public computers. Most of them are mentally ill, and some of them can be dangerous when agitated. Usually it is the onsite security person that escorts the ill-behaving ones out, and library staff sometimes have to take on that risk too. It seems better to me to prevent, or at least treat that damage than having it compromise the usability of that public resource; it wastes taxpayer money. I remember a story of a young boy (~8) who was left at the library all day by his `parents’ and told not to move. He followed his instructions so closely that he would defecate on himself rather than risk a trip to the bathroom. This happened repeatedly. I find it unacceptable that the gentle souls that work in a library are used to mitigate these social problems. But people just throw up their hands and leave it the police to cart off people from time to time. It’s like delaying medical care and ending up in the emergency room instead: Too late to help, and damned expensive as well.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 2:58 PM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thoughts on the Floyd protests

Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

We have evidence of it, here:

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.

On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives.

On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:

    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?

On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:

1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts

to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country

follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?

If so, what will accountability be?

Steve Smith

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by gepr

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

I've thought that Portland's "street response team" [†] is a good idea that addresses much of this, at least if the idea is taken seriously and extrapolated. It helps address the militarization of police by allowing the police to be/stay that way, but then NOT sending police out for everything. The composition of the response team can be dynamic, maybe even self-organizing to some extent. And if it were extrapolated to (e.g.) groups like CERT (of which Renee' was a member back in Oregon), neighborhood watch, suburban/corporate security services, etc. it could be a serious approach to "defunding" the police. (Defund in quotes because it's not really defunding them, just changing the way it's all organized.)

[†] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/amid-spike-in-911-calls-tied-to-homelessness-street-roots-pitches-response-teams/283-cb0ee8bc-f0e1-4c22-984e-f1c0244e9a7a

Mary did a short stint in Western (semi-rural) Nebraska as a regional coordinator between Law Enforcement (primarily Sheriff's dept) and a group of trained therapists who were "on call" to meet law enforcement on calls and *usually* take point with any call where there might be a mental-health component. That included domestic disturbance calls as well as drug/alcohol-involved calls, youth and elderly, homeless (vagrant?) etc. The Law Enforcement welcomed them with open arms and the therapists appreciated the opportunity to be involved early, rather than later at the jail, the hospital or a bereaved family gathering. That may not translate into the higher gradients of urban contexts, but it was a start.

Now, if their funding had come out of the Sheriff's budget, maybe not? It sounded like it was about 1 FTE of funding, probably stacked against a Sheriff's dept and town police forces numbering less than hundreds over the region... seems like a good investment... but tell that to the laid off staff when funding shifts?

I do think that EMT-trained non-enforcement can pick up a *LOT* of what we consider Law Enforcement response needs, and a LOT of what we think requires LEO's help doesn't:

When I found that Ed (who had been living with me for nearly 2 years) had taken his life (3 years ago) on my property, I chose NOT to call 911 but instead to drive 8 miles to the fire-station who had responded just a few months before when Ed had blacked out at a Casino. The firemen/EMTs had (against some rules I think) taken Ed's car-keys (at Ed's request while being loaded into an Ambulance) and drove his vehicle to their fire-station a mile away and took his dog (100lb Akita) inside to care for overnight. Ed and I picked "Brando" up the next day after he was released from the Hospital. The "rules" probably called for towing his vehicle to an impound and "towing" the dog by animal control. Instead they did the common sense, humane thing. We brought them Jerky and Breakfast Burritos. They thanked us and patted Brando on the head and gave him a bite of their jerky.

I knew I was risking something by NOT calling 911 (though I had the technicality that I have no landline, no cell service at my house, and the Google Fi service I have states: "NOT FOR EMERGENCY/911 calls!" (though I know that is their liability, not an proscription from calling 911 on their service). I was in no mood to have Ed's death treated as an emergency (it was a shock but not a surprise to those who knew him well), much less a "crime". I hoped that the EMT-Firefighters could respond more humanely. Unfortunately, they did not answer their door, and when I called the number on their locked door I got central-dispatch (not 911, but nearly so) who in fact dispatched the same team as well as 5 Sheriff's deputies to my house. I rolled in just after the first Deputy arrived at high-speed, lights/sirens-on, etc. So much for my good intentions. The EMTs did arrive soon after, recognized Ed's vehicle and dog and were very gracious, but entirely displaced by LEO.

The Uniformed Sheriff's officers were very professional but were required (I suppose) to treat my home as a (possible?) crime-scene and even after the first couple of hours seemed to be treating it as a crime scene and me? as a suspect? in a crime?. There was a (running the whole time) patrol car parked blocking my driveway right up until the coroner's vehicle arrived for Ed. I spent a couple of hours (total) with a Sheriff's Detective (2 actually) and again they were very professional but I did feel "grilled" most of the time. If I had been more "paranoid" about law-enforcement, I could imagine having become adversarial with them. It helped that the main questioner was very junior (and clumsy in his affect/questions), it might even have been his first case, and I recognized that this was probably being used as an OJT opportunity for him... which made me believe that they weren't *really* treating it as a possible homicide. There came an unspoken moment in the "interrogation" when the tone changed radically and it was evident to me that the two detectives had given one another some kind of sign and they shifted to a more conciliatory tone.

It was a good 6 hours after I made the drive/call that the last deputy left my property (I'm surprised his gas tank wasn't empty from idling all that time, radios blaring and AC running and alternators kicking in to feed the power draw for all of that). I couldn't (and don't) hold anything against the actions or even affect of any of the individuals in this situation, BUT, it still felt incredibly invasive and wasteful and disrespectful (to Ed, to my neighbors, and to a lesser extent to me) and a recipe for bad feelings and misunderstandings. I sent a note of thanks/commendation to the EMT/Fire guys supervisor but couldn't quite do the Sheriff's, even though I knew they were "doing their job professionally"

Ed's son, sister and grandson came down the next weekend to collect his possessions and decompress with me (I had met the son/grandson) once. It was a good visit, but it became evident that the cost of Ed's cremation was to exceed his assets (he was living on disability and his only significant asset as a shaky vehicle and a small bank account holding the security deposit I'd "loaned" him so he could find a place to park the RV I'd "loaned" him). This was going to have to come out of his son's hide which was not impossible but not trivial for a struggling young family. The amount spent on rushing 2 fire-trucks, an ambulance, and 6 marked cars and two detective's cars 10-20 miles from home-base and holding the related staff on-site variously for 30 minutes to 6 hours could have covered that expense 10 times over. I think one EMT vehicle, one coroner, one Sheriff's detective and a couple of hours and no lights or sirens or blocked driveways would have been ample? Ed *did* get as much preventative care as he would allow from mental/social services, but a more robust mental/social health system might have reduced the stigma's that prevented him from asking/allowing for more. I'm not arguing that this would have kept him alive, but it might have been more humane and less wasteful.

Meanwhile, just over the county line in Espanola (closer to my home than Santa Fe), The city police have arrested the county Sheriff either for very good, or totally frivolous reasons... In the midst of a the Coronavirus lockdown and on the cusp of the Police Misconduct/Abuse worldwide protests, we have that kind of mickey-mouse stuff burning tax dollars and public trust?

http://www.riograndesun.com/news/rio-arriba-sheriff-arrested/article_6455c066-9bbf-11ea-9ec4-93b4a8ae54cf.html

And in my backyard (or more to the point, the back-yard I am living in of someone else?) the Tewa Pueblo of San Ildefonso is locked down hard against COVID19, possibly channeling "racial" memories of the Orbis Spike/Columbian Exchange that may well have taken over 90% of the lives of Indigenous Americans in the first 100 years after Columbus. And I can see from where I sit, "Black Mesa" where their warriors held out for months against de Vargas' "reconquest" of the area 300+ years ago. The first conquistador (Onate) took the foot of every able-bodied male in the area (rendering them not-so) to "prevent future uprisings". It didn't work.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/pasatiempo/a-refuge-from-the-reconquista-joseph-aguilar-on-mesatop-archaeology/article_5c7bb04c-c31f-59fa-b8ec-c252a0bd0ce5.html

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/630.html

It wouldn't surprise me if my neighbors watching the military riot-police on TV don't have visions of conquistadores in steel armor on horseback wielding swords instead of batons and riot-shotguns 400 years later. Onate and de Vargas still ride at the lead of the Fiesta de Santa Fe parade every year (as far as I know... I only had to see that once).

... and here I sit, mostly safe and comfortable, half-smug, helpless to do much more than shake my tiny fist and yell "black (red?) lives matter!" or "I can't breathe (walk?) !" and look for ways to take Tolstoy's admonition more personally/seriously.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/4491-i-sit-on-a-man-s-back-choking-him-and-making

Maybe send a check somewhere? Yell at a cop? Light up a dumpster? Wish I could vote *twice*? Hamstring any of my friends/neighbors who might vote for Trump before election day? Make up a tone-deaf joke to post to FriAM? Make fun of "snowflakes" or "deplorables"? Whine about my own 'got it bad' situation? promote Anarchy?, demand Law&Ordure?, conflate ends/means?, riff on hoity-toity free-associations?, contract coronavirus and make room for a new child on this planet (or not)?

I'm on my 9th year of growing out the 3 corn seeds Robert Mirabal (Channeling 'Po'Pay) handed me after his re-animation of 'Po'Pay in 2011. They might even be knee-high by the 4th of July to celebrate the founding of "this Great Nation" while the fireworks sold *only* on native lands start fires in the bosque. It is a small tribute.

grumble,

- Steve


On 6/10/20 2:58 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts...  on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already.   When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that?

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I think I wrote to the list earlier that I dredged up the Kerner Report last week--1968, and I suggest you all read it. http://www.eisenhowerfoundation.org/docs/kerner.pdf

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 3:58 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts... on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already.   When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that?   There are lots of *other* vacuums/rifts/holes being formed as our culture heaves and buckles a little under a series of shifts.   I'm not sure what (if any) are root causes and what are just cascades and reactions.   Globalism, NeoLiberalism, Authoritarinism, Fascism, Manic Hypercaptialism, Rapid Technological Change, Hyper Connectedness, Information Overload, etc.

Many believe that shifting funding from law enforcement (which is by definition more reactionary than preventative?) to mental and social services which are intended to be more strongly pro-active in preventing the kinds of problems that the police often have to remediate down the road, is a net gain and possibly something that could be effected very quickly, even if positive results may lag in many cases. I don't know how well that works for/with hardened criminals who've already been taken from being under-nourished, under-respected, under-opportunitied youth through a series of trainings as a gang member first on the streets, and then inside prison for several stints, annealed and tempered by police, judges, prison-guards and one's fellow travelers to a strong core with a wicked-sharp edge.   But maybe if her mother and younger siblings aren't struggling to keep groceries in the fridge and the fridge running then maybe she can mature into something a little kinder-gentler. Or maybe she already has, but it is hard to recognize when the only interface she has is a regular stop-and-frisking? I think we do see a record of mellowing among aging hard-cores who survive long enough to become elders in their communities?

I think Jon?s suggestion that private security will fill the vacuum is also valid. More people will gate their communities and more gated communities will add uniformed patrols and more uniformed patrols will add lethal weapons and training.   The next George Floyd might be your massage therapist who made the mistake of making house-calls to your gated community while black/brown/yellow/red/poor and the next Chauvin & Co will be guys who couldn't even get IN to the police academy but COULD buy mirror-shades, a loaded up batman utility belt, matching chromed .45s with shoulder holsters, an Armalite 15 and a riot-style shotgun (but not rubber nor armor-piercing rounds, those are for law-enforcement-only) to carry in their ominously painted and hopped up SUV with run flat tires, a push-bumper, blinky lights and a siren.   And that tricked out rig, security "professional" included, will cost a fraction of what a *real* law enforcement officer would BECAUSE of the lack of oversight/training/benefits, etc.    A new branch: UBERArmed?

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

Personally, I'm more interested in how to use this Svaha/Liminal moment to "Visualize World Peace"?   And what is in *that* adjacent possible (ensemble)?   There is value to a Red-Team/Blue-Team analysis in these situations, and I think *both* are necessary. Awfulizing isn't the only thing to be doing right now. Things are shifting, vacuums are created, playing-fields are being re-leveled... are there opportunities to "do the right thing", or is "the right thing" so subjective that we will simply "move the noise around"?   I identify as a humanist... I don't even know if that means what it used to (to others) or if I'm in anything like a "silent majority" in that identification.   Maybe the Anarchists and Libertarians and Radical Progressives and Radical Conservatives and ??? all think THEY are humanists.   Or maybe it's a bad word to them?   I certainly remember my self-righteous Catholic M-in-Law spitting the words "Secular Humanist" as if they were acid, leaving smoking, corroding spots everywhere they landed.

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
We have evidence of it, here: 

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.


On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives. 
On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:

    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?
On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

My wife's father was a member of that Commission. He was an attorney and a lifelong Chicagoan.

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:45 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I wrote to the list earlier that I dredged up the Kerner Report last week--1968, and I suggest you all read it. http://www.eisenhowerfoundation.org/docs/kerner.pdf
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 3:58 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts... on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already.   When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that?   There are lots of *other* vacuums/rifts/holes being formed as our culture heaves and buckles a little under a series of shifts.   I'm not sure what (if any) are root causes and what are just cascades and reactions.   Globalism, NeoLiberalism, Authoritarinism, Fascism, Manic Hypercaptialism, Rapid Technological Change, Hyper Connectedness, Information Overload, etc.

Many believe that shifting funding from law enforcement (which is by definition more reactionary than preventative?) to mental and social services which are intended to be more strongly pro-active in preventing the kinds of problems that the police often have to remediate down the road, is a net gain and possibly something that could be effected very quickly, even if positive results may lag in many cases. I don't know how well that works for/with hardened criminals who've already been taken from being under-nourished, under-respected, under-opportunitied youth through a series of trainings as a gang member first on the streets, and then inside prison for several stints, annealed and tempered by police, judges, prison-guards and one's fellow travelers to a strong core with a wicked-sharp edge.   But maybe if her mother and younger siblings aren't struggling to keep groceries in the fridge and the fridge running then maybe she can mature into something a little kinder-gentler. Or maybe she already has, but it is hard to recognize when the only interface she has is a regular stop-and-frisking? I think we do see a record of mellowing among aging hard-cores who survive long enough to become elders in their communities?

I think Jon?s suggestion that private security will fill the vacuum is also valid. More people will gate their communities and more gated communities will add uniformed patrols and more uniformed patrols will add lethal weapons and training.   The next George Floyd might be your massage therapist who made the mistake of making house-calls to your gated community while black/brown/yellow/red/poor and the next Chauvin & Co will be guys who couldn't even get IN to the police academy but COULD buy mirror-shades, a loaded up batman utility belt, matching chromed .45s with shoulder holsters, an Armalite 15 and a riot-style shotgun (but not rubber nor armor-piercing rounds, those are for law-enforcement-only) to carry in their ominously painted and hopped up SUV with run flat tires, a push-bumper, blinky lights and a siren.   And that tricked out rig, security "professional" included, will cost a fraction of what a *real* law enforcement officer would BECAUSE of the lack of oversight/training/benefits, etc.    A new branch: UBERArmed?

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

Personally, I'm more interested in how to use this Svaha/Liminal moment to "Visualize World Peace"?   And what is in *that* adjacent possible (ensemble)?   There is value to a Red-Team/Blue-Team analysis in these situations, and I think *both* are necessary. Awfulizing isn't the only thing to be doing right now. Things are shifting, vacuums are created, playing-fields are being re-leveled... are there opportunities to "do the right thing", or is "the right thing" so subjective that we will simply "move the noise around"?   I identify as a humanist... I don't even know if that means what it used to (to others) or if I'm in anything like a "silent majority" in that identification.   Maybe the Anarchists and Libertarians and Radical Progressives and Radical Conservatives and ??? all think THEY are humanists.   Or maybe it's a bad word to them?   I certainly remember my self-righteous Catholic M-in-Law spitting the words "Secular Humanist" as if they were acid, leaving smoking, corroding spots everywhere they landed.

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
We have evidence of it, here: 

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.


On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives. 
On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:

    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?
On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

The full text of the Kerner Report:

https://archive.org/stream/kernerreportrevi00asse/kernerreportrevi00asse_djvu.txt

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 9:10 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

My wife's father was a member of that Commission. He was an attorney and a lifelong Chicagoan.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:45 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think I wrote to the list earlier that I dredged up the Kerner Report last week--1968, and I suggest you all read it. http://www.eisenhowerfoundation.org/docs/kerner.pdf
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 3:58 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts... on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already.   When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that?   There are lots of *other* vacuums/rifts/holes being formed as our culture heaves and buckles a little under a series of shifts.   I'm not sure what (if any) are root causes and what are just cascades and reactions.   Globalism, NeoLiberalism, Authoritarinism, Fascism, Manic Hypercaptialism, Rapid Technological Change, Hyper Connectedness, Information Overload, etc.

Many believe that shifting funding from law enforcement (which is by definition more reactionary than preventative?) to mental and social services which are intended to be more strongly pro-active in preventing the kinds of problems that the police often have to remediate down the road, is a net gain and possibly something that could be effected very quickly, even if positive results may lag in many cases. I don't know how well that works for/with hardened criminals who've already been taken from being under-nourished, under-respected, under-opportunitied youth through a series of trainings as a gang member first on the streets, and then inside prison for several stints, annealed and tempered by police, judges, prison-guards and one's fellow travelers to a strong core with a wicked-sharp edge.   But maybe if her mother and younger siblings aren't struggling to keep groceries in the fridge and the fridge running then maybe she can mature into something a little kinder-gentler. Or maybe she already has, but it is hard to recognize when the only interface she has is a regular stop-and-frisking? I think we do see a record of mellowing among aging hard-cores who survive long enough to become elders in their communities?

I think Jon?s suggestion that private security will fill the vacuum is also valid. More people will gate their communities and more gated communities will add uniformed patrols and more uniformed patrols will add lethal weapons and training.   The next George Floyd might be your massage therapist who made the mistake of making house-calls to your gated community while black/brown/yellow/red/poor and the next Chauvin & Co will be guys who couldn't even get IN to the police academy but COULD buy mirror-shades, a loaded up batman utility belt, matching chromed .45s with shoulder holsters, an Armalite 15 and a riot-style shotgun (but not rubber nor armor-piercing rounds, those are for law-enforcement-only) to carry in their ominously painted and hopped up SUV with run flat tires, a push-bumper, blinky lights and a siren.   And that tricked out rig, security "professional" included, will cost a fraction of what a *real* law enforcement officer would BECAUSE of the lack of oversight/training/benefits, etc.    A new branch: UBERArmed?

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

Personally, I'm more interested in how to use this Svaha/Liminal moment to "Visualize World Peace"?   And what is in *that* adjacent possible (ensemble)?   There is value to a Red-Team/Blue-Team analysis in these situations, and I think *both* are necessary. Awfulizing isn't the only thing to be doing right now. Things are shifting, vacuums are created, playing-fields are being re-leveled... are there opportunities to "do the right thing", or is "the right thing" so subjective that we will simply "move the noise around"?   I identify as a humanist... I don't even know if that means what it used to (to others) or if I'm in anything like a "silent majority" in that identification.   Maybe the Anarchists and Libertarians and Radical Progressives and Radical Conservatives and ??? all think THEY are humanists.   Or maybe it's a bad word to them?   I certainly remember my self-righteous Catholic M-in-Law spitting the words "Secular Humanist" as if they were acid, leaving smoking, corroding spots everywhere they landed.

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
We have evidence of it, here: 

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.


On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives. 
On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:

    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?
On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I wonder if the police in America is so aggressive because they operate in a hostile environment where everybody is allowed to carry a weapon (here in Europe it is forbidden). You know this Herbert Simon quote "Human beings, viewed as behaving systems, are quite simple. The apparent complexity of our behavior over time is largely a reflection of the complexity of the environment in which we find ourselves". If a police officer is in constant danger of being shot, then he will probably be much more stressed than one who is not constantly in life-threatening situations. Every home they check and every car they stop can be the last. Robert Sapolsky mentions in his books how people change under constant stress and how bad permanently elevated stress levels are.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/11/20 00:46 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thoughts on the Floyd protests

Marcus

Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

We have evidence of it, here:

Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html

FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.

But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?

As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.

On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives.

On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:

    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?

On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:

1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts

to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country

follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?

If so, what will accountability be?

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Thoughts on the Floyd protests

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I think the program posted by Eric is not available outside the United States. But it shows several examples where that it is not a plausible explanation.

A friend of mine who is a gun enthusiast pointed out that police come after the fact and clean things up. They don’t prevent crime. That is his reason for being armed.
My reason for not bothering is that crime is rare, esp. violent crime, even here in the United States. It is fear that is high. That was the point of my previous e-mail.

Marcus

On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:43 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

I wonder if the police in America is so aggressive because they operate in a hostile environment where everybody is allowed to carry a weapon (here in Europe it is forbidden). You know this Herbert Simon quote "Human beings, viewed as behaving systems, are quite simple. The apparent complexity of our behavior over time is largely a reflection of the complexity of the environment in which we find ourselves". If a police officer is in constant danger of being shot, then he will probably be much more stressed than one who is not constantly in life-threatening situations. Every home they check and every car they stop can be the last. Robert Sapolsky mentions in his books how people change under constant stress and how bad permanently elevated stress levels are.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/11/20 00:46 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thoughts on the Floyd protests
In the 20 years I lived in Santa Fe, I had one interaction with a police officer when a likely drug addict tried to break into the house. When we got home, my large dog was teetering up in a window sill about ready to break through the window.    I reported it to the police, even though I wasn’t even going to file a claim about it.   What I got for my effort was a petulant, authoritarian young man that instructed me how I should contain my dog during his visit. (Dog was not being aggressive.) The officer was more threatening than the `criminal’.   Piss off, officer. Oh, there was also the bikers that would ride into parking circle out where I lived in Arroyo Hondo, to party with the neighbor.   They were loud and sometimes a little menacing. But it never would have occurred to me to call the police on them.   That would just be antagonistic.

The so-called public support services of the city can be witnessed down at the public library.   Every homeless person comes through the library sooner or later.   They come for the shelter, and other amenities like the possibility of watching porn on the public computers.    Most of them are mentally ill, and some of them can be dangerous when agitated.   Usually it is the onsite security person that escorts the ill-behaving ones out, and library staff sometimes have to take on that risk too. It seems better to me to prevent, or at least treat that damage than having it compromise the usability of that public resource; it wastes taxpayer money.   I remember a story of a young boy (~8) who was left at the library all day by his `parents’ and told not to move.   He followed his instructions so closely that he would defecate on himself rather than risk a trip to the bathroom.   This happened repeatedly. I find it unacceptable that the gentle souls that work in a library are used to mitigate these social problems.   But people just throw up their hands and leave it the police to cart off people from time to time.   It’s like delaying medical care and ending up in the emergency room instead: Too late to help, and damned expensive as well.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 2:58 PM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thoughts on the Floyd protests

Glen -

I know you weren't pulling our leg (or my finger).

This was the post I was composing when the tone deaf joke formed and escaped:

My "intellectual" interest is in how self-organizing principles and emergence operate in social contexts... on both sides of the debate here, as is being alluded to here already.   When Law Enforcement gets significantly defunded, what fills the vacuum left by that?   There are lots of *other* vacuums/rifts/holes being formed as our culture heaves and buckles a little under a series of shifts.   I'm not sure what (if any) are root causes and what are just cascades and reactions.   Globalism, NeoLiberalism, Authoritarinism, Fascism, Manic Hypercaptialism, Rapid Technological Change, Hyper Connectedness, Information Overload, etc.

Many believe that shifting funding from law enforcement (which is by definition more reactionary than preventative?) to mental and social services which are intended to be more strongly pro-active in preventing the kinds of problems that the police often have to remediate down the road, is a net gain and possibly something that could be effected very quickly, even if positive results may lag in many cases. I don't know how well that works for/with hardened criminals who've already been taken from being under-nourished, under-respected, under-opportunitied youth through a series of trainings as a gang member first on the streets, and then inside prison for several stints, annealed and tempered by police, judges, prison-guards and one's fellow travelers to a strong core with a wicked-sharp edge.   But maybe if her mother and younger siblings aren't struggling to keep groceries in the fridge and the fridge running then maybe she can mature into something a little kinder-gentler. Or maybe she already has, but it is hard to recognize when the only interface she has is a regular stop-and-frisking? I think we do see a record of mellowing among aging hard-cores who survive long enough to become elders in their communities?

I think Jon?s suggestion that private security will fill the vacuum is also valid. More people will gate their communities and more gated communities will add uniformed patrols and more uniformed patrols will add lethal weapons and training.   The next George Floyd might be your massage therapist who made the mistake of making house-calls to your gated community while black/brown/yellow/red/poor and the next Chauvin & Co will be guys who couldn't even get IN to the police academy but COULD buy mirror-shades, a loaded up batman utility belt, matching chromed .45s with shoulder holsters, an Armalite 15 and a riot-style shotgun (but not rubber nor armor-piercing rounds, those are for law-enforcement-only) to carry in their ominously painted and hopped up SUV with run flat tires, a push-bumper, blinky lights and a siren.   And that tricked out rig, security "professional" included, will cost a fraction of what a *real* law enforcement officer would BECAUSE of the lack of oversight/training/benefits, etc.    A new branch: UBERArmed?

The above is mildy (but not entirely) the maunderings of a frustrated/unexpressed cyberpunk novelist (me)... but oddly not that far away in "some Adjacent Possible"?

Personally, I'm more interested in how to use this Svaha/Liminal moment to "Visualize World Peace"?   And what is in *that* adjacent possible (ensemble)?   There is value to a Red-Team/Blue-Team analysis in these situations, and I think *both* are necessary. Awfulizing isn't the only thing to be doing right now. Things are shifting, vacuums are created, playing-fields are being re-leveled... are there opportunities to "do the right thing", or is "the right thing" so subjective that we will simply "move the noise around"?   I identify as a humanist... I don't even know if that means what it used to (to others) or if I'm in anything like a "silent majority" in that identification.   Maybe the Anarchists and Libertarians and Radical Progressives and Radical Conservatives and ??? all think THEY are humanists.   Or maybe it's a bad word to them?   I certainly remember my self-righteous Catholic M-in-Law spitting the words "Secular Humanist" as if they were acid, leaving smoking, corroding spots everywhere they landed.

- Steve

On 6/10/20 11:17 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
We have evidence of it, here: 
 
Olympia police unions respond to photo of officer posing with armed men
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article243401061.html
 
FWIW, I think our mayor is wrong. The 3% sign isn't the OK sign, regardless of whether any supremacists actually use the OK sign or not. But like any tone deaf marketing message, if the symbol you adopt is *thought* to be a racist symbol, then you should go ahead and change it. Just stop flying the confederate flag even if it's been on your state flag for your whole life ... just stop using the swastika even if you're (East) Indian or Native American.
 
But what does lend truth to the accusations leveled against the 3% is the lack of a public statement condemning Trump for violating the constitution in clearing St John's. If they exist to use their piddly little guns to protect us from the government, where were they then? Perhaps they are only interested in protecting a particular class of people? ... or only people with whom they agree politically?
 
As for the cop in the photo, she should at least be suspended for her stupid mistake. Don't pose with with a bunch of dudes standing in a parking lot with guns. That's simply a stupid thing for a cop (or any professional) to do. And if you must do it, take off your uniform first.
 
 
On 6/10/20 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I think the point is that are already not accountable.   Protected by unions and colleagues who will look the other way, and a culture that accepts that certain people must consent to miserable lives. 
 
On 6/10/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Prof David West" [hidden email] wrote:
 
    downside is the private militias that Jon mentioned. just like the military that replaces soldiers with private contractors - to whom are the latter accountable?
On 6/9/20 4:28 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
1. Will the efforts to defund the police eventually meet with efforts
to build private militias? Will the future of policing in this country
follow a path similar to the shift from public to private postal service?
If so, what will accountability be?
 
 
 
 
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/