Friam

The root of personality disorders

Classic

List

Threaded

31 messages Options

Jochen Fromm-5

The root of personality disorders

In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.

http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Joe Spinden

Re: The root of personality disorders

If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?

-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.

http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

-- 
Joe

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things

Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?

-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.

http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The root of personality disorders

Hi, Frank,

Isn’t that an example of itself?

“This book was written about me”.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things

Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?
-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.
http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

Nick,

No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm already in over my head.

Framk

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Frank,

Isn’t that an example of itself?

“This book was written about me”.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things
Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?
-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.
http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

Someone pointed out that Trump never laughs. Not at himself, not at others, not at his own jokes, not at anything.

-- rec --

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm already in over my head.

Framk

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Frank,

Isn’t that an example of itself?

“This book was written about me”.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things
Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?
-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.
http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

I could imagine something like this unfolding..

1) Humor him, play to his ego. Get him to set expectations about his power and to think it is easy.

Kiss the ring.

2) Once `in’, do what is possible to seed disagreements within the administration in the hopes the conflict will exacerbate his need for social dominance to the point they begin to isolate him.

3) Create hyperpartisanism to make government more dysfunctional and cause despair amongst the people that supported him and the Republican Congress. Let ACA fall, allow all manner of disasters in foreign policy to accumulate. Meanwhile, direct money into the (good) states and create even more productivity in those places while bleeding the rest dry. Provide a Come to Jesus moment.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Nick,

Framk

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Frank,

Isn’t that an example of itself?

“This book was written about me”.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things

Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?

-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.

http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

http://www.cagle.com/michael-reagan/2016/09/the-not-so-great-debate

http://branchtoon.com/wp-content/toons/current/donald-trump-rancor-baby-revised-web-8-26-15.jpg

Insightful cartoonists?

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

On Jan 17, 2017 3:37 PM, "Roger Critchlow" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Someone pointed out that Trump never laughs. Not at himself, not at others, not at his own jokes, not at anything.

-- rec --
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,

No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm already in over my head.

Framk

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Frank,

Isn’t that an example of itself?

“This book was written about me”.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things
Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?
-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.
http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Yes, certainly, the Washington Post says his father sent him there because he showed signs of mischievous behavior or misbehavior. Yet the 13 year old Donald must have felt totally lonely and abandoned when he arrived in NYMA, as if someone pulled out the rug under him. His inflated, grandiose sense of self could be a compensation for deep feelings of shame and abandonment. I wouldn't be surprised if you meet an insecure 13 year old boy at the core of his personality, a child longing for the love of the parents who abandoned him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Joe Spinden <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/17/17 22:49 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?

-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.

http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

-- 
Joe

Barry MacKichan

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

“You probably think this song is about you”

— Carly Simon

--Barry

On 17 Jan 2017, at 15:28, Nick Thompson wrote:

Hi, Frank,

Isn’t that an example of itself?

“This book was written about me”.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things
Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis.

It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918
On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?
-J

On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I

I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution.
http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html

They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood?

-J.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- 
Joe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-8715" value="+15059958715">(505) 995-8715 Cell: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918">(505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: The root of personality disorders

No worries. The thing is, though, with cancer and pneumonia we do have well evidenced, reproducible, mechanistic hypotheses. That makes those hypotheses way more robust and trustworthy than personality disorders. So while there may be some deeply embedded circular reasoning in any diagnosis, the circular reasoning in purely phenomenal diagnoses is much more obvious.

Granted, I'm a big fan of parallax, as I've yapped about here before. When a mechanism is unavailable, we can approach it through circumscribing a small region of behavior space with many purely phenomenal models, which is why these diagnoses need multiple attributes. But there's still no hiding from the circularity.

Also note that I regularly defend circular reasoning ala Robert Rosen, autopoiesis, non-well-founded sets, etc. But I wouldn't entertain a circular justification if there were good reasons to believe a well-founded explanation was out there somewhere.

On January 18, 2017 5:35:24 PM PST, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".
>
>Frank Wimberly
>Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And
>what is
>> this large white area on his chest x-ray?
>>
>> He has lung cancer.
>>
>> How do you know?
>>
>> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has
>a
>> positive chest x-ray.

>> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a
>sense
>> of entitlement?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic
>personality
>> disorder.
>> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense
>of
>> entitlement.

--
⛧glen⛧

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

About 30 years ago there was a long article in the New Yorker about problems of mental health diagnosis and treatment. It was based on a real patient who was given the fictitious name of Sylvia Frumpkin. The consensus diagnosis for her was schizophrenia but one Asian Indian resident said her diagnosis was bipolar disorder. When he was asked why not scizophrenia he said that it was because there was no evidence of severe delusions. His colleagues asked about the fact that she said she was married to Mickey Mouse. His reply was, "Who's that?". The point was that cultural differences between Dr. and patient can cause communication problems.

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 18, 2017 7:58 PM, "gepr" <[hidden email]> wrote:

No worries. The thing is, though, with cancer and pneumonia we do have well evidenced, reproducible, mechanistic hypotheses. That makes those hypotheses way more robust and trustworthy than personality disorders. So while there may be some deeply embedded circular reasoning in any diagnosis, the circular reasoning in purely phenomenal diagnoses is much more obvious.

Granted, I'm a big fan of parallax, as I've yapped about here before. When a mechanism is unavailable, we can approach it through circumscribing a small region of behavior space with many purely phenomenal models, which is why these diagnoses need multiple attributes. But there's still no hiding from the circularity.

Also note that I regularly defend circular reasoning ala Robert Rosen, autopoiesis, non-well-founded sets, etc. But I wouldn't entertain a circular justification if there were good reasons to believe a well-founded explanation was out there somewhere.

On January 18, 2017 5:35:24 PM PST, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".
>
>Frank Wimberly
>Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918">(505) 670-9918
>
>On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And
>what is
>> this large white area on his chest x-ray?
>>
>> He has lung cancer.
>>
>> How do you know?
>>
>> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has
>a
>> positive chest x-ray.

>> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a
>sense
>> of entitlement?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic
>personality
>> disorder.
>> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense
>of
>> entitlement.

--
⛧glen⛧

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

All,

Here is your assignment for tomorrow.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations

There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular explanation and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously circular? Why? Why not?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-8715">(505) 995-8715 Cell: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918">(505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Eric Charles-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

But Frank.... doesn't it normally go a bit more like this:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?

I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly reliable test of that hypothesis.

Then let's do a chest x-ray!

Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics.

Then let's get those antibiotics!

Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now cured.

Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia?

I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again if I meet someone that presents in the same manner.

Oh.

P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular interaction.

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

[hidden email]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-8715" value="+15059958715">(505) 995-8715 Cell: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918">(505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The root of personality disorders

Point taken, Eric. That is more realistic. I was making the point that even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define the disease. There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms that confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses. Some psychiatric disorders can be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are often done posthumously.

In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia. I don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her chest but couldn't even insert a tube. Four weeks after the first symptom she died. Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on. Northwestern Memorial Hospital, 1984.

Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles" <[hidden email]> wrote:

But Frank.... doesn't it normally go a bit more like this:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?

I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly reliable test of that hypothesis.

Then let's do a chest x-ray!

Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics.

Then let's get those antibiotics!

Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now cured.

Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia?

I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again if I meet someone that presents in the same manner.

Oh.

P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular interaction.

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician
U.S. Marine Corps
[hidden email]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-8715" value="+15059958715" target="_blank">(505) 995-8715 Cell: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: The root of personality disorders

Aren't you now talking about different reasoning models/tasks:

Classification
Diagnosis
Hypothetical Reasoning
Bayesian
Fuzzy logic
etc.

On the other hand I've always felt the medical community named too many diseases and conditions after their symptoms usually in a hi-falutin format rather than an actual cause, e.g. abdominal aortic aneurysm or after the person identifying it, e.g. Alois Alzheimer. Which get's back to Glen's circularity.

Robert C

On 1/19/17 7:14 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Point taken, Eric. That is more realistic. I was making the point that even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define the disease. There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms that confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses. Some psychiatric disorders can be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are often done posthumously.

In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia. I don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her chest but couldn't even insert a tube. Four weeks after the first symptom she died. Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on. Northwestern Memorial Hospital, 1984.

Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles" <[hidden email]> wrote:

But Frank.... doesn't it normally go a bit more like this:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?

I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly reliable test of that hypothesis.

Then let's do a chest x-ray!

Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics.

Then let's get those antibiotics!

Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now cured.

Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia?

I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again if I meet someone that presents in the same manner.

Oh.

P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular interaction.

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28505%29%20995-8715" value="+15059958715" target="_blank">(505) 995-8715 Cell: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

-- 
Cirrillian 
Web Design & Development
Santa Fe, NM
http://cirrillian.com
281-989-6272 (cell)
Member Design Corps of Santa Fe

Owen Densmore

Re: The root of personality disorders

Administrator

Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

-- Owen

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Aren't you now talking about different reasoning models/tasks:
Classification
Diagnosis
Hypothetical Reasoning
Bayesian
Fuzzy logic
etc.

On the other hand I've always felt the medical community named too many diseases and conditions after their symptoms usually in a hi-falutin format rather than an actual cause, e.g. abdominal aortic aneurysm or after the person identifying it, e.g. Alois Alzheimer. Which get's back to Glen's circularity.

Robert C
On 1/19/17 7:14 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
Point taken, Eric. That is more realistic. I was making the point that even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define the disease. There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms that confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses. Some psychiatric disorders can be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are often done posthumously.

In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia. I don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her chest but couldn't even insert a tube. Four weeks after the first symptom she died. Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on. Northwestern Memorial Hospital, 1984.

Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles" <[hidden email]> wrote:

But Frank.... doesn't it normally go a bit more like this:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?

I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly reliable test of that hypothesis.

Then let's do a chest x-ray!

Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics.

Then let's get those antibiotics!

Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now cured.

Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia?

I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again if I meet someone that presents in the same manner.

Oh.

P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular interaction.

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]
Phone: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-8715" value="+15059958715" target="_blank">(505) 995-8715 Cell: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-- Cirrillian Web Design & Development Santa Fe, NM http://cirrillian.com <a href="tel:(281)%20989-6272" value="+12819896272" target="_blank">281-989-6272 (cell) Member Design Corps of Santa Fe
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove