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The possibility of self knowledge

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Nick Thompson

The possibility of self knowledge

Russell,

Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my poor old
brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off the
scent.

Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What is it
that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a computer
couldnt do?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
nickthompson at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson

> [Original Message]
> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>

> Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
>
> Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be it
> Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as you've
> posed it has no meaning.
>
> Perhaps you mean a formal system capable of introspection? You could
> look at some of the stuff Bruno Marchal does, as it is all about
> questioning a Loebian machine. I'm sure you could ask a Loebian
> machine about itself, and it will be able to tell you something!
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52:11PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the

first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following
> > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts about
> > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true causes
of
> > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes of
our
> > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
ask a
> > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
monitor
> > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
specialized

> > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting here
> > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to 17
> > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If not,
> > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it telling me
> > what the CPU is doing.
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> >
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at

http://www.friam.org
>
> --
> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> may safely ignore this attachment.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> Australia
http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Holmes-2

The possibility of self knowledge

On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> What is it
> that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a computer
> couldnt do?
>
> Nick

Responding emotionally, not deterministically

Robert
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Russell Standish

The possibility of self knowledge

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

What I said was I didn't really understand your question. For example,
if I ask my computer "How are you?", it responds:

bash: How: command not found

So, my computer, for one does not understand this question. But then
my computer doesn't understand English. If I ask Manuel from Fawlty
Towers the same question, his answer will be "Que" (sorry accents and
upside down question marks are beyond my keyboard :( )

Sure - I'm being flippant here - I know this is not what you mean, so
I'm guessing at some alternative versions of what you might mean - you ask
the computer to report on itself, this seems to beg the question of
whether computers have a self. I know of no program that does,
certainly not Linux, MacOS and Windows.

Perhaps you mean a status report on hardware, software, or whatever, eg the
question "acpi" produces:

Battery 1: unknown, 100%

which while cryptic, means that the computer is "feeling" fully charged.

If I open up emacs, type the command "doctor", then ask emacs that
question I get:

I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time
you are finished talking, type RET twice.

How are you?

I'm ok. Tell me about yourself.

This is basically the old Eliza program, of which I'm sure you're familiar.

But I don't think any of this is analogous to a human being reporting on how
they're feeling.

Cheers

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:08:25PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Russell,
>
> Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my poor old
> brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off the
> scent.
>
> Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What is it
> that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a computer
> couldnt do?
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> >
> > Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be it
> > Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as you've
> > posed it has no meaning.
> >
> > Perhaps you mean a formal system capable of introspection? You could
> > look at some of the stuff Bruno Marchal does, as it is all about
> > questioning a Loebian machine. I'm sure you could ask a Loebian
> > machine about itself, and it will be able to tell you something!
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52:11PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the
> first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following
> > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts about
> > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true causes
> of
> > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes of
> our
> > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
> ask a
> > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> monitor
> > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> specialized
> > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting here
> > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to 17
> > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If not,
> > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it telling me
> > > what the CPU is doing.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> http://www.friam.org
> >
> > --
> > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > may safely ignore this attachment.
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > Australia
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Frank Wimberly

The possibility of self knowledge

?Por qu??

---
Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505
(505) 995-8715 or (505) 670-9918 (cell)
wimberly3 at earthlink.net or wimberly at andrew.cmu.edu or
wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Russell Standish
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:26 PM
To: Nicholas Thompson
Cc: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge

What I said was I didn't really understand your question. For example,
if I ask my computer "How are you?", it responds:

bash: How: command not found

So, my computer, for one does not understand this question. But then
my computer doesn't understand English. If I ask Manuel from Fawlty
Towers the same question, his answer will be "Que" (sorry accents and
upside down question marks are beyond my keyboard :( )

Sure - I'm being flippant here - I know this is not what you mean, so
I'm guessing at some alternative versions of what you might mean - you ask
the computer to report on itself, this seems to beg the question of
whether computers have a self. I know of no program that does,
certainly not Linux, MacOS and Windows.

Perhaps you mean a status report on hardware, software, or whatever, eg the
question "acpi" produces:

Battery 1: unknown, 100%

which while cryptic, means that the computer is "feeling" fully charged.

If I open up emacs, type the command "doctor", then ask emacs that
question I get:

I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time
you are finished talking, type RET twice.

How are you?

I'm ok. Tell me about yourself.

This is basically the old Eliza program, of which I'm sure you're familiar.

But I don't think any of this is analogous to a human being reporting on how
they're feeling.

Cheers

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:08:25PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> Russell,
>
> Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my poor
old
> brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off the
> scent.
>
> Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What is
it

> that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a computer
> couldnt do?
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> >
> > Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be it
> > Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as you've
> > posed it has no meaning.
> >
> > Perhaps you mean a formal system capable of introspection? You could
> > look at some of the stuff Bruno Marchal does, as it is all about
> > questioning a Loebian machine. I'm sure you could ask a Loebian
> > machine about itself, and it will be able to tell you something!
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52:11PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the
> first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following
> > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts

about
> > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
causes

> of
> > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes of
> our
> > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
> ask a
> > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> monitor
> > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> specialized
> > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting

here
> > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to 17
> > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If
not,
> > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it telling
me

> > > what the CPU is doing.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> http://www.friam.org
> >
> > --
> > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > may safely ignore this attachment.
> >
> >
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > Australia
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Giles Bowkett

The possibility of self knowledge

Tambien, que pasa aqui? No comprendo estas preguntas. Son como el sol
y la luna -- pregunte la luna, quienes estas? La luna habla nada. Es
Zen. Cuando su preguntan esas cosas, pregunte la luna -- y no es
cualesquiera palabra -- o pregunte la computadora, y son muchas
palabras, pero las palabras son vacias, para la computadora habla
solas esas palabras que su le da, nada mas. Identicales son las mentes
-- ambos el consciente, y el subconsciente. Tienes palabras vacias, o
silencio. Buscas el sonido de un aplaudir de una mano.

On 11/28/05, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> ?Por qu??
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505
> (505) 995-8715 or (505) 670-9918 (cell)
> wimberly3 at earthlink.net or wimberly at andrew.cmu.edu or
> wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:Friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf
> Of Russell Standish
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:26 PM
> To: Nicholas Thompson
> Cc: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
>
> What I said was I didn't really understand your question. For example,
> if I ask my computer "How are you?", it responds:
>
> bash: How: command not found
>
> So, my computer, for one does not understand this question. But then
> my computer doesn't understand English. If I ask Manuel from Fawlty
> Towers the same question, his answer will be "Que" (sorry accents and
> upside down question marks are beyond my keyboard :( )
>
> Sure - I'm being flippant here - I know this is not what you mean, so
> I'm guessing at some alternative versions of what you might mean - you ask
> the computer to report on itself, this seems to beg the question of
> whether computers have a self. I know of no program that does,
> certainly not Linux, MacOS and Windows.
>
> Perhaps you mean a status report on hardware, software, or whatever, eg the
> question "acpi" produces:
>
> Battery 1: unknown, 100%
>
> which while cryptic, means that the computer is "feeling" fully charged.
>
> If I open up emacs, type the command "doctor", then ask emacs that
> question I get:
>
> I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time
> you are finished talking, type RET twice.
>
> How are you?
>
> I'm ok. Tell me about yourself.
>
> This is basically the old Eliza program, of which I'm sure you're familiar.
>
> But I don't think any of this is analogous to a human being reporting on how
> they're feeling.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:08:25PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > Russell,
> >
> > Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my poor
> old
> > brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off the
> > scent.
> >
> > Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What is
> it
> > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a computer
> > couldnt do?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > > Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > >
> > > Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be it
> > > Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as you've
> > > posed it has no meaning.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you mean a formal system capable of introspection? You could
> > > look at some of the stuff Bruno Marchal does, as it is all about
> > > questioning a Loebian machine. I'm sure you could ask a Loebian
> > > machine about itself, and it will be able to tell you something!
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52:11PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the
> > first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following
> > > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts
> about
> > > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
> causes
> > of
> > > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes of
> > our
> > > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
> > ask a
> > > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> > monitor
> > > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> > specialized
> > > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting
> here
> > > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to 17
> > > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If
> not,
> > > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it telling
> me
> > > > what the CPU is doing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > >
> > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > > ============================================================
> > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> > http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > > --
> > > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> > > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> > > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > > may safely ignore this attachment.
> > >
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > > Australia
> > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> --
> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> may safely ignore this attachment.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/