Friam

The case for vegetarianism

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Pieter Steenekamp

The case for vegetarianism

I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Steve Smith

Re: The case for vegetarianism

"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Russ Abbott

Re: The case for vegetarianism

Pieter,

Thanks for the links. I hadn't been following David Sinclair. Sounds like interesting work. In one of the videos Sinclair says he is 50. he looks more like 30!

Have you followed up and started to take NMN and Resveratrol? If so, which brands did you select and why?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Eating animals accounts for about 66 gigatons of extra CO2 which is about the same as from food waste at 70. Hydrofluorocarbons from discarded air conditioners, etc. is the only larger single source at 90.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2021 12:24 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:

I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Pieter Steenekamp

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ, I know I should really do that, but I have not yet started to take NMN and Resveratrol. NMN is not available in South Africa over the counter and maybe 2-3 years ago I asked my then GP for a prescription for NMN and she would not give it to me. I've since changed my GP and it is on my agenda to ask him about it soon.

For now my wife and I are following David Sinclair's 5 living habits for longevity:
1 don't smoke,
2 don't eat too much and practice intermittend fasting,
3 do high intensity training,
4 eat mainly the right type of foods and
5 manage your stress and have enough sleep.

Pieter

On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 22:40, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Pieter,

Thanks for the links. I hadn't been following David Sinclair. Sounds like interesting work. In one of the videos Sinclair says he is 50. he looks more like 30!

Have you followed up and started to take NMN and Resveratrol? If so, which brands did you select and why?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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Pieter Steenekamp

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve, Agreed. Michael Pollens' recommendations seem to be consistent with David Sinclair's definition of the right type of food to eat for longevity.

Pieter

On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 21:25, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by Pieter Steenekamp

I do the same except for high intensity training. Does playing tennis 3+ times a week work? I say "I" rather than "we" because my wife eats healthier food. I am grateful to her for making two different dinners but one is a pile of vegetables and doesn't involve cooking.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:01 AM Pieter Steenekamp <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ, I know I should really do that, but I have not yet started to take NMN and Resveratrol. NMN is not available in South Africa over the counter and maybe 2-3 years ago I asked my then GP for a prescription for NMN and she would not give it to me. I've since changed my GP and it is on my agenda to ask him about it soon.

For now my wife and I are following David Sinclair's 5 living habits for longevity:
1 don't smoke,
2 don't eat too much and practice intermittend fasting,
3 do high intensity training,
4 eat mainly the right type of foods and
5 manage your stress and have enough sleep.

Pieter
On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 22:40, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pieter,

Thanks for the links. I hadn't been following David Sinclair. Sounds like interesting work. In one of the videos Sinclair says he is 50. he looks more like 30!

Have you followed up and started to take NMN and Resveratrol? If so, which brands did you select and why?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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Russ Abbott

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by Pieter Steenekamp

Just so that you don't feel to bad about it, here's a skeptical article about Sinclair: https://khn.org/news/a-fountain-of-youth-pill-sure-if-youre-a-mouse/.

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 1:09 AM Pieter Steenekamp <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ, I know I should really do that, but I have not yet started to take NMN and Resveratrol. NMN is not available in South Africa over the counter and maybe 2-3 years ago I asked my then GP for a prescription for NMN and she would not give it to me. I've since changed my GP and it is on my agenda to ask him about it soon.

For now my wife and I are following David Sinclair's 5 living habits for longevity:
1 don't smoke,
2 don't eat too much and practice intermittend fasting,
3 do high intensity training,
4 eat mainly the right type of foods and
5 manage your stress and have enough sleep.

Pieter
On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 22:40, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pieter,

Thanks for the links. I hadn't been following David Sinclair. Sounds like interesting work. In one of the videos Sinclair says he is 50. he looks more like 30!

Have you followed up and started to take NMN and Resveratrol? If so, which brands did you select and why?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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thompnickson2

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Hey, Frank.

Salads are the most time-consuming meals to cook.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 9:07 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:01 AM Pieter Steenekamp <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ, I know I should really do that, but I have not yet started to take NMN and Resveratrol. NMN is not available in South Africa over the counter and maybe 2-3 years ago I asked my then GP for a prescription for NMN and she would not give it to me. I've since changed my GP and it is on my agenda to ask him about it soon.

For now my wife and I are following David Sinclair's 5 living habits for longevity:
1 don't smoke,
2 don't eat too much and practice intermittend fasting,
3 do high intensity training,
4 eat mainly the right type of foods and
5 manage your stress and have enough sleep.

Pieter
On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 22:40, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pieter,

Thanks for the links. I hadn't been following David Sinclair. Sounds like interesting work. In one of the videos Sinclair says he is 50. he looks more like 30!

Have you followed up and started to take NMN and Resveratrol? If so, which brands did you select and why?

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
"eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan
https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
"David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair
If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.

A short video clip from an interview with David where he discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M

Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.

To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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gepr

Re: The case for vegetarianism

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The case for vegetarianism

Pursuing longevity (with productivity) is fine so long as reproduction slows.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 7:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

We've been discussing things like free will, the extent to which cultural evolution swamps genetic evolution, and even economic mobility. In all those discussions, there's a motif that progress requires individuals to die.

There's something similar to Roko's Basilisk, here. If climate change is as serious a threat as most of us seem to believe, and we tend to agree that rapid evolution facilitates the generation of novel solutions, then future generations might look back on the *longevity* of individuals as a hindrance to finding such solutions. Anyone who pursues longevity, at least for its own sake, should be retroactively punished for their irresponsibility, their obstructionism.

Now, I suppose one might make the argument that longevity is a means, not an end. So, for example, near the end of her life, my mom was a total drain on society. Her productivity was long gone and had been gone for quite some time. So, one might argue that those individuals who are *still productive* should live longer, whereas those like my mom, who are pure overhead, should be allowed to die ... maybe even encouraged to die.

But the obstruction doesn't come from pure overhead individuals. It comes from *still productive* individuals who provide too much cultural inertia, who gum up the gears, who decrease the rate of innovation. So, one might counter that it's those who *seem* productive, still, who the future generations should blame for the slow rate of innovation.

Of course, I can't help recall the contrast between diachronic and episodic personalities. Cultural evolution should be able to occur just fine with episodic individuals ... where we each change our minds frequently ... last week it was ironic trucker hats, this week it's 1970's gym shorts. So, the obstruction can be further isolated down to stubborn obstructionist narrativity, those absolutely convinced they're right about whatever they think/do. So, we might say, again with longevity as a means, not an end, if the longevity biohacking you're doing facilitates an episodic personality, rapid cultural evolution, then that's OK.

So, perhaps the policy should be that all such biohacking should be nootropic ... put a heavy dose of mescaline in the NMN pill and you win the argument. 8^D

On 6/13/21 6:33 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> Just so that you don't feel to bad about it, here's a skeptical
> article about Sinclair: https://khn.org/news/a-fountain-of-youth-pill-sure-if-youre-a-mouse/ <https://khn.org/news/a-fountain-of-youth-pill-sure-if-youre-a-mouse/>.
>
> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 1:09 AM Pieter Steenekamp <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Russ, I know I should really do that, but I have not yet started to take NMN and Resveratrol. NMN is not available in South Africa over the counter and maybe 2-3 years ago I asked my then GP for a prescription for NMN and she would not give it to me. I've since changed my GP and it is on my agenda to ask him about it soon.
>
> For now my wife and I are following David Sinclair's 5 living habits for longevity:
> 1 don't smoke,
> 2 don't eat too much and practice intermittend fasting,
> 3 do high intensity training,
> 4 eat mainly the right type of foods and
> 5 manage your stress and have enough sleep.
>
> Pieter
>
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 22:40, Russ Abbott <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Pieter,
>
> Thanks for the links. I hadn't been following David Sinclair. Sounds like interesting work. In one of the videos Sinclair says he is 50. he looks more like 30!
>
> Have you followed up and started to take NMN and Resveratrol? If so, which brands did you select and why?
> _
> _
> __-- Russ Abbott
> Professor, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> "eat food, mostly plants, not too much" - Michael Pollan
>
>
> https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating
> <https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating>
>
>
> On 6/12/21 7:40 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> I don't know the members of Friam personally, but I get the impression it's not exactly a youth club and maybe some might be interested in living healthier longer? (Compared to most others in our culture). I've been following the longevity work of David Sinclair and just maybe one of you might find it interesting?. I quote:
>> "David A. Sinclair, Ph.D., A.O. is a Professor in the Department of Genetics and co-Director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School".
>> https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair <https://sinclair.hms.harvard.edu/people/david-sinclair>
>> If you navigate the site you'll find a list of his publications.
>>
>> A short video clip from an interview with David where he
>> discusses plant- vs meat-diets. His conclusion is that to live
>> healthier longer (as opposed to merely living longer) one should
>> (amongst many other things) not eat meat, especially not read meat.
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzeD4_41M>
>>
>> Disclaimer: according to David, vegetarianism is not the most important factor in living healthier longer, it's probably relatively low on the list, so die-hard carnivores (like myself) can still eat moderate amounts of red meat and still live healthier longer.
>>
>> To conclude, a short presentation by David about his work
>> on longevity in general: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V-IaeVCHlw>

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by gepr

Path dependence and (no) free will offer another view of why longevity may do more harm than good. Once certain developmental paths and early life decisions are locked-in, they scope the rest of life through the formation of personality and the participation in one social network rather than another. So short of partially erasing older people through the use of psychedelic drugs or other interventions, there is no way to back out the path dependence. So they need to die, so that other early life forks can be taken by other individuals.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 7:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

We've been discussing things like free will, the extent to which cultural evolution swamps genetic evolution, and even economic mobility. In all those discussions, there's a motif that progress requires individuals to die.

There's something similar to Roko's Basilisk, here. If climate change is as serious a threat as most of us seem to believe, and we tend to agree that rapid evolution facilitates the generation of novel solutions, then future generations might look back on the *longevity* of individuals as a hindrance to finding such solutions. Anyone who pursues longevity, at least for its own sake, should be retroactively punished for their irresponsibility, their obstructionism.

Now, I suppose one might make the argument that longevity is a means, not an end. So, for example, near the end of her life, my mom was a total drain on society. Her productivity was long gone and had been gone for quite some time. So, one might argue that those individuals who are *still productive* should live longer, whereas those like my mom, who are pure overhead, should be allowed to die ... maybe even encouraged to die.

But the obstruction doesn't come from pure overhead individuals. It comes from *still productive* individuals who provide too much cultural inertia, who gum up the gears, who decrease the rate of innovation. So, one might counter that it's those who *seem* productive, still, who the future generations should blame for the slow rate of innovation.

Of course, I can't help recall the contrast between diachronic and episodic personalities. Cultural evolution should be able to occur just fine with episodic individuals ... where we each change our minds frequently ... last week it was ironic trucker hats, this week it's 1970's gym shorts. So, the obstruction can be further isolated down to stubborn obstructionist narrativity, those absolutely convinced they're right about whatever they think/do. So, we might say, again with longevity as a means, not an end, if the longevity biohacking you're doing facilitates an episodic personality, rapid cultural evolution, then that's OK.

So, perhaps the policy should be that all such biohacking should be nootropic ... put a heavy dose of mescaline in the NMN pill and you win the argument. 8^D

On 6/13/21 6:33 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

thompnickson2

Re: The case for vegetarianism

In reply to this post by gepr

Ah! You young pups have this all wrong. Who wants to live forever. I just want to live one more day. When that stops being true, I won't.

N

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 10:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

We've been discussing things like free will, the extent to which cultural evolution swamps genetic evolution, and even economic mobility. In all those discussions, there's a motif that progress requires individuals to die.

There's something similar to Roko's Basilisk, here. If climate change is as serious a threat as most of us seem to believe, and we tend to agree that rapid evolution facilitates the generation of novel solutions, then future generations might look back on the *longevity* of individuals as a hindrance to finding such solutions. Anyone who pursues longevity, at least for its own sake, should be retroactively punished for their irresponsibility, their obstructionism.

Now, I suppose one might make the argument that longevity is a means, not an end. So, for example, near the end of her life, my mom was a total drain on society. Her productivity was long gone and had been gone for quite some time. So, one might argue that those individuals who are *still productive* should live longer, whereas those like my mom, who are pure overhead, should be allowed to die ... maybe even encouraged to die.

But the obstruction doesn't come from pure overhead individuals. It comes from *still productive* individuals who provide too much cultural inertia, who gum up the gears, who decrease the rate of innovation. So, one might counter that it's those who *seem* productive, still, who the future generations should blame for the slow rate of innovation.

Of course, I can't help recall the contrast between diachronic and episodic personalities. Cultural evolution should be able to occur just fine with episodic individuals ... where we each change our minds frequently ... last week it was ironic trucker hats, this week it's 1970's gym shorts. So, the obstruction can be further isolated down to stubborn obstructionist narrativity, those absolutely convinced they're right about whatever they think/do. So, we might say, again with longevity as a means, not an end, if the longevity biohacking you're doing facilitates an episodic personality, rapid cultural evolution, then that's OK.

So, perhaps the policy should be that all such biohacking should be nootropic ... put a heavy dose of mescaline in the NMN pill and you win the argument. 8^D

On 6/13/21 6:33 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

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gepr

Re: The case for vegetarianism

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The case for vegetarianism

There's probably a fair amount of variability in how prone to lock-in across personalities, though. On one extreme, there's the possibility of a zero-memory episodic personality. This personality I think is well suited to the modern world, because they aren't annoyed when the same thing happens over and over again. History will teach us nothing..

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 8:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

Exactly. That's why it's the *productive* old people who present the biggest risk. It dovetails nicely with the warning against ambitious objectives.

The headlines are stocked full with debate about whether Garland should "clean house". It strikes me as a bit contradictory to yap so much about inter-administration "professionals" when Trump's in charge, then yap about cleaning house when Biden's in charge.

But where is institutional memory/inertia? Is it in the bodies of humans? Or in the Cobol of the robots? The robots need to die, just like the old people.

On 6/14/21 8:17 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Path dependence and (no) free will offer another view of why longevity may do more harm than good. Once certain developmental paths and early life decisions are locked-in, they scope the rest of life through the formation of personality and the participation in one social network rather than another. So short of partially erasing older people through the use of psychedelic drugs or other interventions, there is no way to back out the path dependence. So they need to die, so that other early life forks can be taken by other individuals.

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gepr

Re: The case for vegetarianism

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The case for vegetarianism

One example I was thinking of was dozens of almost identical programming languages. Why were Python and Julia created? Common Lisp implementations already existed and had their good properties both as languages and as implementations. Another example are government programs that go on and on without any real progress, or explicit recognition that the previous attempt failed miserably. It is annoying to have all these changes in key but not melody. To be young again and think the latest fad is new.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 9:23 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism

I think the problem is one of where the memory (and logic) is housed. It's a standard tenet of the cult of individuality that individuals learn from history [⛧]. That's never been true, despite how attractive that story is to those brainwashed by the cult. The things that learn from history are part of our extended phenotype, our tools and built environment.

[⛧] We can slice it into two types of learning, aversive and reinforcing. The focus on personality attempts to slice out mind from body, or culture from physiology, which we know can't be done. Reinforcement seems simpler to me, almost inevitable ... canalizing. But aversion relies on a trigger to change, like pain or somesuch. Productive people are also not annoyed when the same thing happens over and over again ... like a competitive runner putting one foot in front of another, one training run after another, one competition after another, all to suit the objective. So too is the junkie happy when the same thing happens over and over again. In both cases it's the reinforcement learning that's the problem. What the world needs is more *pain*, more aversive learning.

p.s. I suppose the above begs for a distinction between types of history. Is a steady stream a history? ... like taking data from a sensor every milisecond? Is that time series rightly called "history" in the same way we, say, teach history in a classroom? I honestly don't know. But the above implies they're different in a fundamental way.

On 6/14/21 8:57 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> There's probably a fair amount of variability in how prone to lock-in across personalities, though. On one extreme, there's the possibility of a zero-memory episodic personality. This personality I think is well suited to the modern world, because they aren't annoyed when the same thing happens over and over again. History will teach us nothing..
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 8:51 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for vegetarianism
>
> Exactly. That's why it's the *productive* old people who present the biggest risk. It dovetails nicely with the warning against ambitious objectives.
>
> The headlines are stocked full with debate about whether Garland should "clean house". It strikes me as a bit contradictory to yap so much about inter-administration "professionals" when Trump's in charge, then yap about cleaning house when Biden's in charge.
>
> But where is institutional memory/inertia? Is it in the bodies of humans? Or in the Cobol of the robots? The robots need to die, just like the old people.
>
> On 6/14/21 8:17 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Path dependence and (no) free will offer another view of why longevity may do more harm than good. Once certain developmental paths and early life decisions are locked-in, they scope the rest of life through the formation of personality and the participation in one social network rather than another. So short of partially erasing older people through the use of psychedelic drugs or other interventions, there is no way to back out the path dependence. So they need to die, so that other early life forks can be taken by other individuals.

gepr

Re: The case for vegetarianism

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The case for vegetarianism

< But it *will* help, because it gets their skin in the game. Adds to the stew of energy we all feed off. And, as we covered before, it's not really energy, per se, but *free* energy that matters. Energy we old vampires can suck from the youth to live yet another day ... and redirect into our own convictions, our own paths to hell. >

Are they adding energy or are they taking it? The "well, I might as well kill myself" reflection is one that I think a lot of people just don't have. And it is their defect.

Marcus
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gepr

Re: The case for vegetarianism

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