The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
 
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Clever! .. and my yearly read on what's wrong with science: http://quillette.com/2016/02/15/the-unbearable-asymmetry-of-bullshit/ -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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From the end of Owen's article: “The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.” -Alberto Brandolini Bullshit Science then appears to be a spontaneous entropy-producing process from which one can construct local devices to extract work ;-) _______________________________________________________________________ [hidden email] CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828 twitter: @simtable On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
On 03/02/2016 09:12 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> http://quillette.com/2016/02/15/the-unbearable-asymmetry-of-bullshit/ "When I say bullshit, I mean arguments, data, publications, or even the official policies of scientific organizations that give every impression of being perfectly reasonable — of being well-supported by the highest quality of evidence, and so forth — but which don’t hold up when you scrutinize the details. Bullshit has the veneer of truth-like plausibility. It looks good. It sounds right. But when you get right down to it, it stinks." -- Earp "In On Bullshit, the philosopher Frankfurt (2005) defines bullshit as something that is designed to impress but that was constructed absent direct concern for the truth. This distinguishes bullshit from lying, which entails a deliberate manipulation and subversion of truth (as understood by the liar)." -- Pennycook et al 2015 I think there's a drastic (but perhaps subtle to some) difference between these two conceptions of bullsh!t. And as much as I don't really like the Pennycook et al paper, I agree more with their definition than Earp's. But the more important point is this idea that the energy required to refute bullsh!t is somehow a waste ... or wrong, lamentable ... or somesuch. Earp is guilty of the precise fallacy of which he accuses others, building a straw man named Voldemort, then pelting it with self-righteous insults and indignation. What's that? A 1,720 word article full of bias and myopia?!? How much effort would it take to argue with Earp's bullsh!t? ... to see beneath the truth-like veneer he props up? The trick is that such energy use/waste _is_ science. Earp and those like him miss the point entirely. They yap on and on, laying out endless bullsh!t about _the_ truth, what they see as the end product of our energy, and they call those end products "science". They're so wrong, and they pollute the air so completely with their wrongness, that it is very difficult to refute them. In the end, though, you can't think of people like Earp as _bad_ people. They're just magical thinkers. They believe in unicorns and rainbows and wonder why we can't just skip to the _end_. Earp already knows the truth, knows reality, and wonders why we have to spend so much time and effort slogging through the actual science. -- ⇔ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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"Earp is guilty of the precise fallacy of which he accuses others, building a straw man named Voldemort, then pelting it with self-righteous insults and indignation. What's that? A 1,720 word article full of bias and myopia?!? How much effort would it take to argue with Earp's bullsh!t? ... to see beneath the truth-like veneer he props up?"
He's doing it in the open, though, and can be flamed in the open by individuals like you. As opposed to sneaky behavior of threating editors and such. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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On 03/02/2016 11:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> He's doing it in the open, though, and can be flamed in the open by individuals like you. > As opposed to sneaky behavior of threating editors and such. I disagree. He _seems_ like he's doing it in the open. That's part of his purposefully constructed truth-like veneer. But posts like this are filled with "dog whistles", communicating with his naive realist brethren who _think_ they know things they don't actually know. The most obvious whistle is the word "bullshit". Naive realist know-it-alls love to prance around asserting how much more they understand subject X than the bullsh!tters. To boot, the ridicule/shaming/intimidation tactics they practice reach far beyond the open public spaces in which they spout their ridicule. (Think Dawkins.) It can pry into the very souls of younger community members and haunt the dreams of authentic researchers. Is this really very "open"? (Think "political correctness.") It can even help construct armies of groupthinking puppets. (Think "social justice warriors.") -- This is the Trumpification of science. True, the thick-skinned among us have no problems with it[*]. (My name is on a kind of "systematic review" of agent-based modeling. And because there were multiple authors, I don't completely agree with the way the article might be inferred. And, we took pains to highlight the usefulness and appropriate context of non-agent-based models, as well as the limitations of agent-based models.) But would a thin-skinned researcher avoid or get trapped in "analysis paralysis" because they don't want such ridicule to damage their reputation? Worse yet, would we lose such a person to a more polite enterprise? [*] http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2620 -- ⇔ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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``To boot, the ridicule/shaming/intimidation tactics they practice reach far beyond the open public spaces in which they spout their ridicule. (Think Dawkins.) It can pry into the very souls of younger community members and haunt the dreams of authentic researchers. Is this really very "open"?''
It's detectable, at least. The young souls will become old souls soon enough. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
On 03/02/2016 09:12 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> http://quillette.com/2016/02/15/the-unbearable-asymmetry-of-bullshit/ On Bullshit: Donald Trump, Harry Frankfurt, and Indifference to Truth CFI Institute Online Course Tuesday, May 24, 2016 • 8:00-9:30 PM https://secure.centerforinquiry.net/education/events/on-bullshit-donald-trump-harry-frankfurt-and-indifference-to-truth "Donald Trump’s primary campaign is a landmark in the history of bullshit. As of this writing, 78 percent of Trump’s campaign trail claims evaluated by the nonpartisan website PolitiFact have been rated Mostly False, False, or Pants on Fire. Trump’s deceptions range from the inflammatory, to the self-serving, to the conspiratorial: That he saw New Jersey Muslims celebrating the fall of the World Trade Center on 9/11. That he never went bankrupt. That vaccines cause autism. In his classic paper, “On Bullshit,” philosopher Harry Frankfurt argues that the hallmark of bullshit is indifference to truth. A liar knows the truth and takes pains to misrepresent it convincingly. A bullshitter casually mixes fact and fiction because, for him, the truth is beside the point. Trump is the epitome of a Frankfurtian bullshitter in that his rhetoric is crafted purely to impress his audience in the moment. His proposal to build a wall between the United States and Mexico is a case in point. We will discuss how Trump’s success reflects our post-factual politics and what we can do to resist disinformation. Lindsay Beyerstein is an investigative journalist in Brooklyn, New York. She co-hosts CFI’s flagship radio show and podcast, Point of Inquiry. Her reporting has appeared in The New Republic, Al Jazeera America, The Columbia Journalism Review, Salon, Slate, Newsweek, The Nation, Ms. Magazine, and other publications. She was the recipient of a 2015 Beacon of Reason Award from Oregonians for Science and Reason. She holds a Master’s degree in philosophy from Tufts University." -- ⛧ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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So what you're saying is MrDrumpf is a business person with a bit of a umm Issue With Correct Statements are concerned. Sounds familliar and also here and here I think there's a pattern here. Hmmm so to be a good business person you need to be a Sith Lord? Who have mastered the fine and Nobel art of saying Whatever The Heck is on there mind from what I can tell. The difference is that a Sith Lord might Get'r Done Now see he had a alergy to BS. He didn't bother with a rebuttle. He just fired them. :P True they tended to kind of Gurgle and gasp while be being told You are the weakest link. But at least he got it done. :P BS is also a fine art. The real question is what's the pot or RedComet (or Guiness or other Ails and Meads) to BS. To BS you can't KNOW you're BSing just say what ever comes to mind and let someone translate what you said. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:07 AM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote: On 03/02/2016 09:12 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Heh, well, to be clear, _I'm_ not really saying anything, just alerting anyone who may care to the "class" being offerred by the CFI (which I think is a good organization). Were I to render my opinion: I don't think Trump is a good bullshitter, at all. He doesn't delve deep enough into anything. He's more like that drunk guy at the dive bar who knows lots of words or vapid jokes, but can't dive in and parse the words/jokes to any significant extent ... probably can't even pronounce the words well. 8^) But, I disagree with your last sentiment, entirely. To BS _well_, you mosdef must know you're BSing. The minute you begin to believe your own BS is the minute everyone in the audience turns off and walks away. To that extent, we know why Trump fans remain fans. They even say it directly... paraphrasing -- "He doesn't really mean what he says. When he's president, he'll be more reasonable." On 05/13/2016 03:28 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > So what you're saying is MrDrumpf is a business person with a bit of a umm > Issue With Correct Statements are concerned. > Sounds familliar <https://www.google.com/#q=wikipedia+steve+jobs> > > and also here <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush> > > and here <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling> > > I think there's a pattern here. Hmmm so to be a good business person you > need to be a Sith Lord <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palpatine>? > > Who have mastered the fine and Nobel art of saying Whatever The Heck is on > there mind from what I can tell. > > The difference is that a Sith Lord might Get'r Done > <http://static.flickr.com/115/297847470_f2068552e7_o.jpg> > > Now see he had a alergy to BS. He didn't bother with a rebuttle. He just > fired them. :P > > True they tended to kind of Gurgle and gasp while be being told You are the > weakest link. But at least he got it done. :P > > BS is also a fine art. The real question is what's the pot or RedComet (or > Guiness or other Ails and Meads) to BS. To BS you can't KNOW you're BSing > just say what ever comes to mind and let someone translate what you said. > > > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:07 AM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> On 03/02/2016 09:12 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: >>> http://quillette.com/2016/02/15/the-unbearable-asymmetry-of-bullshit/ >> >> On Bullshit: Donald Trump, Harry Frankfurt, and Indifference to Truth >> CFI Institute Online Course >> Tuesday, May 24, 2016 • 8:00-9:30 PM >> >> https://secure.centerforinquiry.net/education/events/on-bullshit-donald-trump-harry-frankfurt-and-indifference-to-truth >> -- ⛧ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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<<The minute you begin to believe your own BS is the minute everyone in the audience turns off and walks away. To that extent, we know why Trump fans remain fans. They even say it directly... paraphrasing -- "He doesn't really mean what he says. When he's president, he'll be more reasonable.">>
From a machine learning perspective, politics is ensemble weak learning. His is just without logical constraints between the weak learners. I think it is more likely his actions are without purpose or coherent ideology. He's not gaming different constituencies to get his way, he is just looking for a way to be instrumental. He's a shallow person, a salesman and an aspiring actor. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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I find the executive actions (EPA, immigration, title 9, etc.) interesting. If we assume Trump is really just an empty shell trying to get elected by the most convenient means, then an old argument about unelected bureaucrats running the country becomes more relevant. These entrenched employees high up enough to be considered "executives", yet low enough to avoid the changing of the guard after an election, should be able to wrangle Trump effectively ... ensure that things continue to be done in somewhat traditional, stable, ways. But if Trump really does hold some core beliefs that he'd be willing to take action on, it would be interesting to see how far he could get. My cynical guess is he'd go for the high-profile, easier to achieve, actions just so he can maintain and advance "Trump" as a household name, allowing the real governing to be done by the entrenched bureaucrats (or any competent people he may - accidentally - bring with him). On 05/14/2016 07:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > From a machine learning perspective, politics is ensemble weak learning. His is just without logical constraints between the weak learners. I think it is more likely his actions are without purpose or coherent ideology. He's not gaming different constituencies to get his way, he is just looking for a way to be instrumental. He's a shallow person, a salesman and an aspiring actor. -- ⛧ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: The Unbearable Asymmetry of Bullshit | Quillette
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There was a great sound bite from Mark Cuban to the effect that Trump is that guy who goes into a bar and will say whatever it takes to get laid. -- rec -- On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:09 PM, glen ⛧ <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Psychiatry as Bullshit
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/springer/ehpp/2016/00000018/00000001/art00007;jsessionid=367qrargskjst.alice "Instead, we have clear evidence that psychiatry is colonizing, as it were, normal psycho- logical states and reactions and claiming them as “mental illnesses” (Horwitz & Wakefield, 2007; Whitaker, 2009; Whitely, 2010). A state of discomfort, such as grief, is converted by fiat to “a mental disease” for which drugs are de rigueur, but that is not the point here. We can presume patients and the general public did not invent the expression “chemical imbalance of the brain” to describe the cause of the various mental disorders. We can be fairly sure it did not come from the older psychiatrists trained in psychoanalytic or other psychodynamic approaches, nor the few who wholeheartedly adopted the behaviorist model. By a process of exclusion, it had to arise in the complex of academic psychiatrists and drug companies who so strongly advocated the biological model (Whitaker & Cosgrove, 2015)." -- ␦glen? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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