Friam

The Second Wave is Gathering

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thompnickson2

The Second Wave is Gathering

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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Prof David West

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

yes, but it will be, at most, a storm surge, not the tsunami of headline innuendo.

On Sat, May 23, 2020, at 1:04 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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David Eric Smith

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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Russ Abbott

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Russ must have been brought up Catholic.

As long as you aren’t leaving out barrels of pork rinds on the beaches, I don’t see an ethical problem.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 4:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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thompnickson2

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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Dale Schumacher

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

It seems to me that this is a misapplication of the term schadenfreude. Assume Russ feels that same way I do, I would clarify that I do not "take delight in the suffering of another". Rather that I hope that a population that is making horrible choices will directly experience the consequences of those choices, and thus perhaps reconsider them. Unfortunately, there will also be a lot of collateral damage, but "natural selection" has always been a blunt instrument...

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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thompnickson2

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dale Schumacher
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Nick, for me, that’s not it either.

I hope that reasonable people won’t waste time protecting unreasonable people from themselves, and will focus on protecting other reasonable people, and the innocent. Specifically, to your interpretation, I will not value their regret and do not seek it.

The stakes are high, with COVID-19, climate change, and many other things.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 9:05 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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Russ Abbott

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale and Marcus put it all very sanely. I was talking specifically about my emotional reaction.

It's not that I take delight in anyone's suffering or that I want us to spend our resources protecting reasonable people (which, of course, I do). I don't even want an invective to hurl.

It's that I find myself hoping that the generic Trump fanboy comes down with COVID --- especially after being aggressively reckless as a political act. It's similar to what Nick said (told you so; serves you right) but, now that I think about it, a bit more on the abstract level. I don't want real people to suffer, but in the service of moving the political needle, I'd be happy to see the generic Trump supporter having problems.

I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states.

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick, for me, that’s not it either.

I hope that reasonable people won’t waste time protecting unreasonable people from themselves, and will focus on protecting other reasonable people, and the innocent. Specifically, to your interpretation, I will not value their regret and do not seek it.

The stakes are high, with COVID-19, climate change, and many other things.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 9:05 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dale Schumacher
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

It seems to me that this is a misapplication of the term schadenfreude. Assume Russ feels that same way I do, I would clarify that I do not "take delight in the suffering of another". Rather that I hope that a population that is making horrible choices will directly experience the consequences of those choices, and thus perhaps reconsider them. Unfortunately, there will also be a lot of collateral damage, but "natural selection" has always been a blunt instrument...

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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Jochen Fromm-5

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Yes, "Ich habe es dir (doch) gesagt, Trottel" is a valid translation for "I told you so, idiot" :-) A German would say "Sag ich doch" or "Hab ich (doch) gleich gesagt".

I guess you are looking for a long compound word. We have indeed words for the fat you acquire during grieving ("Kummerspeck" - grief bacon) or the joy about the misfortune of others ("Schadenfreude" - damage joy).

Here I would say perhaps..

Rechthaberei (insisting of being right)

Besserwisserei (knowing everything better)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: [hidden email]

Date: 5/25/20 06:06 (GMT+01:00)

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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Jochen Fromm-5

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

If the virus helps to convince Trump supporters to see how evil individual no. 1 is, there might be something good about it. Every death is still one too many. It is hard to understand how a president can go golfing while nearly 100,000 people in his country have died in a pandemic.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/25/20 09:04 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale and Marcus put it all very sanely. I was talking specifically about my emotional reaction.

It's not that I take delight in anyone's suffering or that I want us to spend our resources protecting reasonable people (which, of course, I do). I don't even want an invective to hurl.

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick, for me, that’s not it either.

I hope that reasonable people won’t waste time protecting unreasonable people from themselves, and will focus on protecting other reasonable people, and the innocent. Specifically, to your interpretation, I will not value their regret and do not seek it.

The stakes are high, with COVID-19, climate change, and many other things.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 9:05 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dale Schumacher
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

It seems to me that this is a misapplication of the term schadenfreude. Assume Russ feels that same way I do, I would clarify that I do not "take delight in the suffering of another". Rather that I hope that a population that is making horrible choices will directly experience the consequences of those choices, and thus perhaps reconsider them. Unfortunately, there will also be a lot of collateral damage, but "natural selection" has always been a blunt instrument...

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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Dale Schumacher

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

1,646,495 as of this morning, according to https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 8:25 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

If the virus helps to convince Trump supporters to see how evil individual no. 1 is, there might be something good about it. Every death is still one too many. It is hard to understand how a president can go golfing while nearly 100,000 people in his country have died in a pandemic.

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Date: 5/25/20 09:04 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale and Marcus put it all very sanely. I was talking specifically about my emotional reaction.

It's not that I take delight in anyone's suffering or that I want us to spend our resources protecting reasonable people (which, of course, I do). I don't even want an invective to hurl.

It's that I find myself hoping that the generic Trump fanboy comes down with COVID --- especially after being aggressively reckless as a political act. It's similar to what Nick said (told you so; serves you right) but, now that I think about it, a bit more on the abstract level. I don't want real people to suffer, but in the service of moving the political needle, I'd be happy to see the generic Trump supporter having problems.

I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states.

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick, for me, that’s not it either.

I hope that reasonable people won’t waste time protecting unreasonable people from themselves, and will focus on protecting other reasonable people, and the innocent. Specifically, to your interpretation, I will not value their regret and do not seek it.

The stakes are high, with COVID-19, climate change, and many other things.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 9:05 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dale Schumacher
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

It seems to me that this is a misapplication of the term schadenfreude. Assume Russ feels that same way I do, I would clarify that I do not "take delight in the suffering of another". Rather that I hope that a population that is making horrible choices will directly experience the consequences of those choices, and thus perhaps reconsider them. Unfortunately, there will also be a lot of collateral damage, but "natural selection" has always been a blunt instrument...

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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Dale Schumacher

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Sorry. I quoted cases confirmed (which would be higher with more testing, of course).

The death toll is 97,794.

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 9:23 AM Dale Schumacher <[hidden email]> wrote:

1,646,495 as of this morning, according to https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 8:25 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:
If the virus helps to convince Trump supporters to see how evil individual no. 1 is, there might be something good about it. Every death is still one too many. It is hard to understand how a president can go golfing while nearly 100,000 people in his country have died in a pandemic.

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Date: 5/25/20 09:04 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale and Marcus put it all very sanely. I was talking specifically about my emotional reaction.

It's not that I take delight in anyone's suffering or that I want us to spend our resources protecting reasonable people (which, of course, I do). I don't even want an invective to hurl.

It's that I find myself hoping that the generic Trump fanboy comes down with COVID --- especially after being aggressively reckless as a political act. It's similar to what Nick said (told you so; serves you right) but, now that I think about it, a bit more on the abstract level. I don't want real people to suffer, but in the service of moving the political needle, I'd be happy to see the generic Trump supporter having problems.

I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states.

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick, for me, that’s not it either.

I hope that reasonable people won’t waste time protecting unreasonable people from themselves, and will focus on protecting other reasonable people, and the innocent. Specifically, to your interpretation, I will not value their regret and do not seek it.

The stakes are high, with COVID-19, climate change, and many other things.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 9:05 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dale Schumacher
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

It seems to me that this is a misapplication of the term schadenfreude. Assume Russ feels that same way I do, I would clarify that I do not "take delight in the suffering of another". Rather that I hope that a population that is making horrible choices will directly experience the consequences of those choices, and thus perhaps reconsider them. Unfortunately, there will also be a lot of collateral damage, but "natural selection" has always been a blunt instrument...

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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thompnickson2

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Thanks, Jochen.

Very useful.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 8:11 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Yes, "Ich habe es dir (doch) gesagt, Trottel" is a valid translation for "I told you so, idiot" :-) A German would say "Sag ich doch" or "Hab ich (doch) gleich gesagt".

Rechthaberei (insisting of being right)

Besserwisserei (knowing everything better)

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: [hidden email]

Date: 5/25/20 06:06 (GMT+01:00)

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/
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Russ Abbott

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

In defense of golfing: after working very hard on something one often needs a break. Golf can provide that. And if anyone works hard it's Trump. Think of all the time and energy he puts into shining a spotlight on himself and defending his image. Very hard work.

In the New Yorker, Borowitz, who writes little satire pieces, has one in which he has Faucci prescribing golf for Trump. He says that the more time Trump spends playing golf, the better off the country is.

On Mon, May 25, 2020, 7:24 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

If the virus helps to convince Trump supporters to see how evil individual no. 1 is, there might be something good about it. Every death is still one too many. It is hard to understand how a president can go golfing while nearly 100,000 people in his country have died in a pandemic.

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Date: 5/25/20 09:04 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale and Marcus put it all very sanely. I was talking specifically about my emotional reaction.

It's not that I take delight in anyone's suffering or that I want us to spend our resources protecting reasonable people (which, of course, I do). I don't even want an invective to hurl.

It's that I find myself hoping that the generic Trump fanboy comes down with COVID --- especially after being aggressively reckless as a political act. It's similar to what Nick said (told you so; serves you right) but, now that I think about it, a bit more on the abstract level. I don't want real people to suffer, but in the service of moving the political needle, I'd be happy to see the generic Trump supporter having problems.

I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states.

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick, for me, that’s not it either.

I hope that reasonable people won’t waste time protecting unreasonable people from themselves, and will focus on protecting other reasonable people, and the innocent. Specifically, to your interpretation, I will not value their regret and do not seek it.

The stakes are high, with COVID-19, climate change, and many other things.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 9:05 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Dale,

What’s the German word for, I told you so, suckah! I agree that it’s not quite schadenfreude, but it’s pretty darned close.

Oh, it appears to be “Ich habe es dir gesagt, Trottel”

That comes off the tongue pretty good, too. If invective is what one is after, it’s hard to beat german.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dale Schumacher
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

It seems to me that this is a misapplication of the term schadenfreude. Assume Russ feels that same way I do, I would clarify that I do not "take delight in the suffering of another". Rather that I hope that a population that is making horrible choices will directly experience the consequences of those choices, and thus perhaps reconsider them. Unfortunately, there will also be a lot of collateral damage, but "natural selection" has always been a blunt instrument...

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:12 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

This emotion, culpable though it may be, is so common there is a german word for it, schadenfreude.

Doesn’t that just roll off the tongue?

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 5:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

I feel ethically corrupt to find myself hoping for a spike in COVID incidents among Trump voters. But in fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:11 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

One should do a regression against the popular vote and against the electoral vote. See if the difference between those regression coefficients carries even more information than the separate values.

On May 24, 2020, at 4:04 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/05/07/as-states-reopen-covid-19-is-spreading-into-even-more-trump-counties/

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ wrote:

< I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states. >

There are progressive individuals (and organizations) in red states.[1] I hope those individuals stay safe while the pandemic continues. I don’t hope that they come out of their homes to help their locality and get sick in the process. Of course, some may have to put their health at risk just to eat and pay rent, no thanks to the preferences of their neighbors and local leaders. I don’t know what purpose your categorization serves, other than as a way to express frustration. I also don’t want the people you mention above on ventilators or in ICUs, because these are scarce resources.

Marcus

[1] e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center, based out of Montgomery, Alabama

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Not to be melodramatic or anything, but maybe the red-state progressives should stay inside and put lambs blood above their doors for the next few weeks or months, just to be on the safe side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt#10._Death_of_firstborn:_Ex._11:1%E2%80%9312:36

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ wrote:

< I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states. >

There are progressive individuals (and organizations) in red states.[1] I hope those individuals stay safe while the pandemic continues. I don’t hope that they come out of their homes to help their locality and get sick in the process. Of course, some may have to put their health at risk just to eat and pay rent, no thanks to the preferences of their neighbors and local leaders. I don’t know what purpose your categorization serves, other than as a way to express frustration. I also don’t want the people you mention above on ventilators or in ICUs, because these are scarce resources.

Marcus

[1] e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center, based out of Montgomery, Alabama

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

Except in this case it will take the elders, not the firstborn.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2020 at 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ wrote:

< I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states. >

There are progressive individuals (and organizations) in red states.[1] I hope those individuals stay safe while the pandemic continues. I don’t hope that they come out of their homes to help their locality and get sick in the process. Of course, some may have to put their health at risk just to eat and pay rent, no thanks to the preferences of their neighbors and local leaders. I don’t know what purpose your categorization serves, other than as a way to express frustration. I also don’t want the people you mention above on ventilators or in ICUs, because these are scarce resources.

Marcus

[1] e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center, based out of Montgomery, Alabama

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Jochen Fromm-5

Re: The Second Wave is Gathering

The good news is ordinary soap helps against the plague. The virus is helpless against soap (and social distancing).

https://www.drkarafitzgerald.com/2020/03/12/covid-19-preserving-your-familys-health-and-sanity-in-the-face-of-a-pandemic/

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/25/20 20:34 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Second Wave is Gathering

Except in this case it will take the elders, not the firstborn.

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ wrote:

< I would feel terrible if somehow as a result of my wishes, lots of red-state people ended up on ventilators. I want the red states themselves on ventilators, not the flesh-and-blood individuals in those states. >

There are progressive individuals (and organizations) in red states.[1] I hope those individuals stay safe while the pandemic continues. I don’t hope that they come out of their homes to help their locality and get sick in the process. Of course, some may have to put their health at risk just to eat and pay rent, no thanks to the preferences of their neighbors and local leaders. I don’t know what purpose your categorization serves, other than as a way to express frustration. I also don’t want the people you mention above on ventilators or in ICUs, because these are scarce resources.

Marcus

[1] e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center, based out of Montgomery, Alabama

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