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The Role of Philosophy in Physics

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thompnickson2

The Role of Philosophy in Physics

Soooo, Steve. What IS the role of philosophy in physics?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:10 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] anthropological observations

Frank -
> I may have mentioned this before but physicists, chemists, engineers
> etc. rarely talk about philosophy of science. Social scientists,
> particularly.psychologists, do much more. Some mathematicians do
> because they believe they are dealing with God.

My undergrad career in Physics turned a corner when I took an opportunity in an upper division class to write an essay on the "role of Philosophy in Physics". The professor had asked for an essay on "the topic of your choice" because he said that it was important for hard scientists to be able to ask critical questions about the topics they were studying and to communicate them clearly, not just derive and solve equations.

We were a small cadre of upper-class physics majors and a few grad students from other disciplines... perhaps a dozen or less? There was no graduate program in Physics at my university (though there was in Chemistry, Biology, Geology...) and I think the core professors were frustrated or hungry for more stimulating experiences with students than the usual undergrad context offered.

I was mildly worried that my subject was going to be dismissed as off-topic, as the other students unrolled their deepish-dives into specific questions in Physics. My classmates did "roll their eyes" a little when I announced my topic and started in. The professor, however, who had been rather critical of/hard on me up to that point in this and other classes, interrupted me to ask penetrating questions, and soon the rest of the class was nodding their heads in appreciation or at least understanding. I can't remember the full arc of my essay but I remember in particular presenting things like Zeno's paradox to discuss ideas such as atomicity and the different interpretations of quantum theory and the larger implications of relativity.

This experience melted the ice with that professor who had been critical of my work-style for many semesters. I rarely wrote down *every* step in my derivations (meaning I would balance more than one element of an equation in a single step) and I rarely did *all* the assigned homework problems (Once I felt I understood a concept, I would skip the remaining problems and go to the next conceptually different problem... and I was running my own business and had a young child by then and had no patience for what felt like "make-work"). My weak "performance" in the mundane tasks of homework balanced against my above-average performance on tests (where I forced myself to write down every step and do every
problem) made me a pretty solid B student while most of the others in my cohort were over-achievers trying to nail a 4.0 grade average.

At the end of that class, the professor (notoriously hard-nosed) offered me an independent study class the next semester which allowed me to rush through a medley of advanced topics that were not offered as formal classes. I dearly enjoyed his reading assignments and the two hours of discussion each week, we covered a LOT of ground that last semester. It wasn't my first A in a Physics class but it WAS my first in one of HIS classes! It was also a great preparation for working at LANL where I encountered esoteric topics on a very regular basis.

It might be noted that my second-most favorite course of study and other favorite professor was in Philosophy... a professor and domain of study that taught me how to think about ideas, not just about "things" which seemed to be what *all* of the engineering classes I took and *most* of the science classes I took were about. This is where I was first made aware that a grand unified theory of everything was an oxymoron, why some physical phenomena could *appear* to move faster than light-speed (e.g. two quasar-beams crossing in intergalactic space), and an intuitive framing of Godel's work in incompleteness, etc before I encountered it in CS.

- Steve

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Prof David West

Re: The Role of Philosophy in Physics

Not Steve, but when it comes to Quantum Physics the relationship is "Shut up and calculate."

davew

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, at 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Soooo, Steve. What IS the role of philosophy in physics?
>
> N
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> [hidden email]
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:10 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] anthropological observations
>
>
> Frank -
> > I may have mentioned this before but physicists, chemists, engineers
> > etc. rarely talk about philosophy of science. Social scientists,
> > particularly.psychologists, do much more. Some mathematicians do
> > because they believe they are dealing with God.
>
> My undergrad career in Physics turned a corner when I took an
> opportunity in an upper division class to write an essay on the "role
> of Philosophy in Physics". The professor had asked for an essay on
> "the topic of your choice" because he said that it was important for
> hard scientists to be able to ask critical questions about the topics
> they were studying and to communicate them clearly, not just derive and
> solve equations.
>
> We were a small cadre of upper-class physics majors and a few grad
> students from other disciplines... perhaps a dozen or less? There was
> no graduate program in Physics at my university (though there was in
> Chemistry, Biology, Geology...) and I think the core professors were
> frustrated or hungry for more stimulating experiences with students
> than the usual undergrad context offered.
>
> I was mildly worried that my subject was going to be dismissed as
> off-topic, as the other students unrolled their deepish-dives into
> specific questions in Physics. My classmates did "roll their eyes" a
> little when I announced my topic and started in. The professor,
> however, who had been rather critical of/hard on me up to that point in
> this and other classes, interrupted me to ask penetrating questions,
> and soon the rest of the class was nodding their heads in appreciation
> or at least understanding. I can't remember the full arc of my essay
> but I remember in particular presenting things like Zeno's paradox to
> discuss ideas such as atomicity and the different interpretations of
> quantum theory and the larger implications of relativity.
>
> This experience melted the ice with that professor who had been
> critical of my work-style for many semesters. I rarely wrote down
> *every* step in my derivations (meaning I would balance more than one
> element of an equation in a single step) and I rarely did *all* the
> assigned homework problems (Once I felt I understood a concept, I would
> skip the remaining problems and go to the next conceptually different
> problem... and I was running my own business and had a young child by
> then and had no patience for what felt like "make-work"). My weak
> "performance" in the mundane tasks of homework balanced against my
> above-average performance on tests (where I forced myself to write down
> every step and do every
> problem) made me a pretty solid B student while most of the others in
> my cohort were over-achievers trying to nail a 4.0 grade average.
>
> At the end of that class, the professor (notoriously hard-nosed)
> offered me an independent study class the next semester which allowed
> me to rush through a medley of advanced topics that were not offered as
> formal classes. I dearly enjoyed his reading assignments and the two
> hours of discussion each week, we covered a LOT of ground that last
> semester. It wasn't my first A in a Physics class but it WAS my first
> in one of HIS classes! It was also a great preparation for working at
> LANL where I encountered esoteric topics on a very regular basis.
>
> It might be noted that my second-most favorite course of study and
> other favorite professor was in Philosophy... a professor and domain
> of study that taught me how to think about ideas, not just about
> "things" which seemed to be what *all* of the engineering classes I
> took and *most* of the science classes I took were about. This is
> where I was first made aware that a grand unified theory of everything
> was an oxymoron, why some physical phenomena could *appear* to move
> faster than light-speed (e.g. two quasar-beams crossing in
> intergalactic space), and an intuitive framing of Godel's work in
> incompleteness, etc before I encountered it in CS.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .-
> ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
>
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .-
> ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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Steve Smith

Re: The Role of Philosophy in Physics

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

> Soooo, Steve. What IS the role of philosophy in physics?
>
> N
Bait taken...

There is plenty to say about that, plenty more than I knew to ask/answer
in that essay which is long gone both on paper and in my mind.

I think I rambled on here for a dozen posts on this topic some nearly
dozen years ago... back and forth with Victoria (Tory) Hughes (RIP) or
perhaps on the SFx mail list during *it's* short existence.   I don't
have the courage to go through the archives and see what I had to say then.

The key for me at the time (college) was my relatively new and dawning
awareness that Physics (and Science in general) was embedded in the
larger project of "knowledge" and that there were large domains of study
which were not science.   For example, I was surprised to discover that
Logic and Mathematics were not part of Science, and that the nature of
knowledge and rationality of belief (Epistemology) as experienced within
Science were handed down from outside of Science and that Physics (and
Science) were a (proper) subset of Metaphysics

I mis-stated, or perhaps it was Freud-in-a-Slip since Philosophy has no
role *in* Physics, but only the other way 'round.

I truly, deeply, madly appreciate Feynman's assertion: "philosophy of
science is as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds."   But
*most* scientists are also Humans (excluding Cetaceans, Ravens, other
Great Apes, Aliens, Elephants and Artificial Intelligences for the
moment) and to some extent Humanists. The *context* of science for them
is *also* the meaning and implications *of* Science to them as Humans
who are plagued (blessed?) by Heidegger's "Problem of Knowledge and
Being".   The aforementioned categories, I assume, suffer the same
"Problem" perhaps with the exception of the AI...   at least as long as
AI without embodiment is even sensible?

- Steve

> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> [hidden email]
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:10 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] anthropological observations
>
>
> Frank -
>> I may have mentioned this before but physicists, chemists, engineers
>> etc. rarely talk about philosophy of science. Social scientists,
>> particularly.psychologists, do much more. Some mathematicians do
>> because they believe they are dealing with God.
> My undergrad career in Physics turned a corner when I took an opportunity in an upper division class to write an essay on the "role of Philosophy in Physics". The professor had asked for an essay on "the topic of your choice" because he said that it was important for hard scientists to be able to ask critical questions about the topics they were studying and to communicate them clearly, not just derive and solve equations.
>
> We were a small cadre of upper-class physics majors and a few grad students from other disciplines... perhaps a dozen or less? There was no graduate program in Physics at my university (though there was in Chemistry, Biology, Geology...) and I think the core professors were frustrated or hungry for more stimulating experiences with students than the usual undergrad context offered.
>
> I was mildly worried that my subject was going to be dismissed as off-topic, as the other students unrolled their deepish-dives into specific questions in Physics. My classmates did "roll their eyes" a little when I announced my topic and started in. The professor, however, who had been rather critical of/hard on me up to that point in this and other classes, interrupted me to ask penetrating questions, and soon the rest of the class was nodding their heads in appreciation or at least understanding. I can't remember the full arc of my essay but I remember in particular presenting things like Zeno's paradox to discuss ideas such as atomicity and the different interpretations of quantum theory and the larger implications of relativity.
>
> This experience melted the ice with that professor who had been critical of my work-style for many semesters. I rarely wrote down *every* step in my derivations (meaning I would balance more than one element of an equation in a single step) and I rarely did *all* the assigned homework problems (Once I felt I understood a concept, I would skip the remaining problems and go to the next conceptually different problem... and I was running my own business and had a young child by then and had no patience for what felt like "make-work"). My weak "performance" in the mundane tasks of homework balanced against my above-average performance on tests (where I forced myself to write down every step and do every
> problem) made me a pretty solid B student while most of the others in my cohort were over-achievers trying to nail a 4.0 grade average.
>
> At the end of that class, the professor (notoriously hard-nosed) offered me an independent study class the next semester which allowed me to rush through a medley of advanced topics that were not offered as formal classes. I dearly enjoyed his reading assignments and the two hours of discussion each week, we covered a LOT of ground that last semester. It wasn't my first A in a Physics class but it WAS my first in one of HIS classes! It was also a great preparation for working at LANL where I encountered esoteric topics on a very regular basis.
>
> It might be noted that my second-most favorite course of study and other favorite professor was in Philosophy... a professor and domain of study that taught me how to think about ideas, not just about "things" which seemed to be what *all* of the engineering classes I took and *most* of the science classes I took were about. This is where I was first made aware that a grand unified theory of everything was an oxymoron, why some physical phenomena could *appear* to move faster than light-speed (e.g. two quasar-beams crossing in intergalactic space), and an intuitive framing of Godel's work in incompleteness, etc before I encountered it in CS.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
>
> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/