The Importance of Being Discrete - Life Always Wins on the Surface

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The Importance of Being Discrete - Life Always Wins on the Surface

Owen Densmore
Administrator
Someone on the NetLogo list sent a reference to this:
        http://arxiv.org/abs/adap-org/9912005
.. saying:
   I was fascinated a few years ago to read Shnerb's PNAS article on "The
   Importance of Being Discrete," exhibiting qualitatively different
behaviors
   in an equation-based and an entity-based model of the same system ...

Owen Densmore          908 Camino Santander       Santa Fe, NM 87505
[hidden email]    Cell: 505-570-0168         Home: 505-988-3787
AIM:owendensmore   http://complexityworkshop.com  http://backspaces.net


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The Importance of Being Discrete - Life Always Wins on the Surface

Bruce Sawhill
There are several famous examples where discreteness gives a completely
different result than continuity:

1.  Period doubling route to chaos (discrete iteration of logistic
equation x[i+1]=r x[i](1-x[i]).  Continuity (integrating differential
equation) gives S-curve to saturation.

2.  Kimura's results on genetic drift. (start with 50% of each of two
competing alleles, one always excludes the other eventually)  
Continuity says 50% stays 50%.

Cheers,

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 31, 2003, at 08:33 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:

> Someone on the NetLogo list sent a reference to this:
> http://arxiv.org/abs/adap-org/9912005
> .. saying:
>   I was fascinated a few years ago to read Shnerb's PNAS article on
> "The
>   Importance of Being Discrete," exhibiting qualitatively different
> behaviors
>   in an equation-based and an entity-based model of the same system ...
>
> Owen Densmore          908 Camino Santander       Santa Fe, NM 87505
> [hidden email]    Cell: 505-570-0168         Home: 505-988-3787
> AIM:owendensmore   http://complexityworkshop.com  http://backspaces.net
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> http://www.friam.org
>


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The Importance of Being Discrete - Life Always Wins on theSurface

Robert Holmes
In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Halfway through Shnerb's paper I read "... the arguments and computer
experiments mentioned above show convincingly that the individuals based
life is much more resilient than a hypothetical life density spread across
spatial regions". Well that seems fair enough, I think, if Shnerb is talking
about the entities in his artificial 2d world where he has indeed shown that
discrete and continuous descriptions diverge.

But no, I'm apparently not thinking big enough. "In particular most of the
species in nature could be in this regime... Similarly markets... In fact
this line of thought might provide an explanation to the emergence of
life..." And later: "This may explain the fact that most of the ecological
systems are two dimensional".

I think I must have missed that lesson on scientific method where such
evidence-free leaps of faith were shown to be valid.

Robert Holmes
{author of "How my 1-d Cellular Automata Models Everything in the Universe
Ever"}



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: 31 December 2003 09:34
To: The Friday Morning Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Importance of Being Discrete - Life Always Wins on
theSurface


Someone on the NetLogo list sent a reference to this:
        http://arxiv.org/abs/adap-org/9912005
.. saying:
   I was fascinated a few years ago to read Shnerb's PNAS article on "The
   Importance of Being Discrete," exhibiting qualitatively different
behaviors
   in an equation-based and an entity-based model of the same system ...

Owen Densmore          908 Camino Santander       Santa Fe, NM 87505
[hidden email]    Cell: 505-570-0168         Home: 505-988-3787
AIM:owendensmore   http://complexityworkshop.com  http://backspaces.net


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.friam.org





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The Importance of Being Discrete - Life Always Wins on the Surface

Roger Critchlow-2
In reply to this post by Bruce Sawhill


Bruce Sawhill wrote:

> There are several famous examples where discreteness gives a
> completely different result than continuity:
>
> 1.  Period doubling route to chaos (discrete iteration of logistic
> equation x[i+1]=r x[i](1-x[i]).  Continuity (integrating differential
> equation) gives S-curve to saturation.

This example was reported by Robert M. May in Science, 15 November 1974,
186:645-647.

-- rec --