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The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

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Russ Abbott

The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

About to be published.

From a review by Oliver Burkeman:

Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.

Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.

Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.

Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)

"At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
― Nick Lane, author of The Vital Question

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Back in the 80s Hans Moravec, author of "Mind Children: The Future of AI", and I used to argue constantly about the nature of consciousness. I forwarded Russ' post to him after decades without our communicating. Here is his reply in its entirety.

"Hi Frank,

Surely the position that emotions arise in the cortex is a straw man, I don't

know anyone who argues that. Reasoning rationalizes the drives, doesn't

cause them.

That doesn't mean a reasoning AI can't someday simulate emotions, like

an actor or author.

Hans

We worked in the Robotics Institute. Neither of us wastes words apparently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 6:17 PM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

About to be published.

From a review by Oliver Burkeman:

Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.

Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.

Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.

Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)

"At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
― Nick Lane, author of The Vital Question

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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thompnickson2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Well, Russ, here’s one thing we agree on. I would be the last person to claim that consciousness is an epiphenomenon.

Nick

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2021 7:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

About to be published.

From a review by Oliver Burkeman:

Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.

Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

thompnickson2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Frank,

OOOOOOOOOH. I would like to see the argument that actors simulate emotions. How do you imagine that argument goes? Is that the difference between a Method actor and the other kind?

Frank, while I am bothering you, it suddenly occurred to me that I might send and receive text messages on my computer, and when I looked into the matter, there were a half a dozen apps that promised to do that. I have a crappy little clamshell phone. My need to send text messages is limited to exchanging messages with my “picker” at whole foods.

Nick

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2021 8:36 PM
To: [hidden email]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

"Hi Frank,

Surely the position that emotions arise in the cortex is a straw man, I don't

know anyone who argues that. Reasoning rationalizes the drives, doesn't

cause them.

That doesn't mean a reasoning AI can't someday simulate emotions, like

an actor or author.

Hans

We worked in the Robotics Institute. Neither of us wastes words apparently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 6:17 PM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

About to be published.

From a review by Oliver Burkeman:

Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.

Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.

Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.

Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)

"At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
― Nick Lane, author of The Vital Question

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

As a Facebook member you can use Facebook Messenger to send and receive text messages using either your cellphone or your computer. This included messages to/from SMS users.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 8:25 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,

OOOOOOOOOH. I would like to see the argument that actors simulate emotions. How do you imagine that argument goes? Is that the difference between a Method actor and the other kind?

Frank, while I am bothering you, it suddenly occurred to me that I might send and receive text messages on my computer, and when I looked into the matter, there were a half a dozen apps that promised to do that. I have a crappy little clamshell phone. My need to send text messages is limited to exchanging messages with my “picker” at whole foods.

Nick

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2021 8:36 PM
To: [hidden email]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Back in the 80s Hans Moravec, author of "Mind Children: The Future of AI", and I used to argue constantly about the nature of consciousness. I forwarded Russ' post to him after decades without our communicating. Here is his reply in its entirety.

"Hi Frank,

Surely the position that emotions arise in the cortex is a straw man, I don't
know anyone who argues that. Reasoning rationalizes the drives, doesn't
cause them.
That doesn't mean a reasoning AI can't someday simulate emotions, like
an actor or author.

Hans

We worked in the Robotics Institute. Neither of us wastes words apparently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 6:17 PM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
About to be published.

From a review by Oliver Burkeman:

Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.

Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.

Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.

Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)

"At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
― Nick Lane, author of The Vital Question

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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gepr

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

excruciatingly good material in this review of Solms' book... and by
extension the book itself.

I also very much appreciate Glen's offering of the phrase "multivalent
compression of interoceptive composites", as dense and indirect as this
read on first blush, a careful unpacking of that phrase was quite
fruitful...

thanks Russ & Glen (and Burkeman and Solms)

On 2/9/21 12:13 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.
>
> In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011
>
>
> [⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).
>
> On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>> About to be published.
>>
>> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>>
>> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>>
>> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>>
>> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>>
>> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>>
>> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
>> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

thompnickson2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by gepr

I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.

Thanks, all.

n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Emotions are what I feel.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.

Thanks, all.

n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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thompnickson2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

And what is the feeler you are using when you feel them and what exactly is that feeler feeling? I assume your answer will be that you are using your feeling feeler and what the feeling feeler is feeling is feelings. (};-)]

PS Glen (at least) is going to dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again. But I do so enjoy it.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Emotions are what I feel.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.

Thanks, all.

n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

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Jochen Fromm-5

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

A nice formulation: "emotions are assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it".

Such an assessment is a real-time appraisal which leads in each moment to what Nico Frijda called "readiness for action" to improve that relation (and eventually to satisfy the selfish genes which are behind it all)

http://emotionresearcher.com/interview-with-nico-frijda/

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: [hidden email]

Date: 2/9/21 20:32 (GMT+01:00)

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

This make me feel sad:

If Nancy Hanks

came back as a ghost,

seeking news of what she loved most,

she'd ask first,

"Where's my son?

What's happened to Abe?

What's he done?"

"Poor little Abe,

left all alone,

Except for Tom,

who's a rolling stone;

He was only nine,

the year I died.

I still remember

how hard he cried."

You know the rest. I'm the de facto father of a nine year-old boy, as you know. And Friday is Abe's birthday.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 12:50 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

F

And what is the feeler you are using when you feel them and what exactly is that feeler feeling? I assume your answer will be that you are using your feeling feeler and what the feeling feeler is feeling is feelings. (};-)]

N

PS Glen (at least) is going to dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again. But I do so enjoy it.

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Emotions are what I feel.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.

Thanks, all.

n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Actually I like this question more than Mark Solms' book. Who is the feeler that feels? I think we can imagine the feeler as a kind of jury in the society of mind which judges the situation on behalf of the genes (for every subjective sport like ice skating or dancing there is such a jury).

I am not convinced Mark Solms has solved an important riddle. It is true that we feel the way we do because our genes have created emotions, an adaptive ancient control mechanism for us. In the moments when we are conscious of ourselves we are like a self-driving car that wakes up.

But I wouldn't say that emotions alone solve the riddle of consciousness. It is rather the path dependence of emotions which leads to subjective experience, as we have discussed many times before. A subjective experience which we can start to understand in cinemas (which is one reason why we like them).

The problem is the moment I become conscious of myself is also the moment where I am confused and have no longer a clear assessment of the situation, because the relation between the environment and me as a part of it is now in the center of attention.

And this relation not only creates contradictions, it is also the foundation of emotions, if emotions are defined as "assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it".

Paradoxically consciousness gives us the ability to perceive ourself, but it also causes the ultimate confusion. It is enabling us to act independently of our genes, but also interferes in our ability to do so unless we are part of a larger group which tells us what to do.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: [hidden email]

Date: 2/9/21 20:51 (GMT+01:00)

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

PS Glen (at least) is going to dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again. But I do so enjoy it.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Emotions are what I feel.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.

Thanks, all.

n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms

Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human.

In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011

[⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).

On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> About to be published.
>
> From a review <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> by Oliver Burkeman:
>
> Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.
>
> Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life.
>
> Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is
> that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster.
>
> Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon
> <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/
> 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick
> Lane, you know he is worth listening to.)
>
> "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."
> ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/

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