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The Best 10 Fictional Works

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Robert J. Cordingley

The Best 10 Fictional Works

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and
would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best
Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and
available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google
searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular
publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at
least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions
will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on
them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russell Standish

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

I would have to vote for the Bible. Its arguably not great fiction,
but its probably the most influential work of fiction in the English
language.

Cheers ;).

On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 01:44:31PM -0600, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and
> would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best
> Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and
> available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time.
> Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one
> particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all
> (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I
> know the suggestions will be good ones for me!
>
> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote
> on them.
>
> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>
> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy
>
> Thanks!
> Robert C.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Mathematics
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email]
Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

George Duncan-2

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

Restricting to just novels --

"Ulysses" by James Joyce

"A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" by James Joyce

"Moby Dick" (1849) by Herman Melville

"The Sound and the Fury" (1929) by William Faulkner

"The Brothers Karamazov" by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"Crime and Punishment: by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"Atonement" (2002) by Ian McEwan

"Catch-22" (1961) by Joseph Heller

"The French Lieutenant's Woman" (1969) by John Fowles

"Herzog" (1964) by Saul Bellow

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

George Duncan
georgeduncanart.com

(505) 983-6895
Represented by ViVO Contemporary

Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward.
Soren Kierkegaard

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

QEF@aol.com

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

Robert --

The St. John's graduate in me says "whoopie"! Here are 10, in no particular order:

Shakespeare: Sonnets
Shakespeare: Romeo & Juliet
Dante: The Divine Comedy
Homer: The Iliad
Tolstoy: War & Peace
Cervantes: Don Quixote
Eliot: Middlemarch
Austen: Pride & Prejudice
Fitzgerald: The Great Gatsby
Melville: Moby Dick

If you're okay with an anthology, The Oxford Book of Humorous Prose is well worth a look, as is anything by Wodehouse, I believe.

I'm sure some will quibble with my choices (too Western, too St. John's-y, not really fiction), but I'd aver at least some of them qualify in the sense of being "based on a true story", if not necessarily fiction.

Happy Reading!

- Claiborne Booker -

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:44 pm
Subject: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Paul Paryski

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Take a look at this:

One Hundred Best Books

John Cowper Powys
ISBN10: 1116904438 ISBN13: 9781116904437
Publisher: BiblioLife, LLC
Format: Paperback
Publication date: 07 Nov 2009

cheers, Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Scott R. Powell

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Good grief, I have that as a Little Blue Book published by E. Haldeman-Julius, falling apart on high acid content paper.

Scott

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Paul Paryski <[hidden email]> wrote:

Take a look at this:

One Hundred Best Books

John Cowper Powys
ISBN10: 1116904438 ISBN13: 9781116904437
Publisher: BiblioLife, LLC
Format: Paperback
Publication date: 07 Nov 2009

cheers, Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Robert --

The St. John's graduate in me says "whoopie"! Here are 10, in no particular order:

Shakespeare: Sonnets
Shakespeare: Romeo & Juliet
Dante: The Divine Comedy
Homer: The Iliad
Tolstoy: War & Peace
Cervantes: Don Quixote
Eliot: Middlemarch
Austen: Pride & Prejudice
Fitzgerald: The Great Gatsby
Melville: Moby Dick

If you're okay with an anthology, The Oxford Book of Humorous Prose is well worth a look, as is anything by Wodehouse, I believe.

I'm sure some will quibble with my choices (too Western, too St. John's-y, not really fiction), but I'd aver at least some of them qualify in the sense of being "based on a true story", if not necessarily fiction.

Happy Reading!

- Claiborne Booker -

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:44 pm
Subject: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Hugh Trenchard

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

The Glass Bead Game, by Hermann Hesse, is a must-read for any
self-respecting complexity theorist :-)

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would
> like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works"
> I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English
> and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list
> the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a
> good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of
> scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones
> for me!
>
> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on
> them.
>
> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>
> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
> McCarthy
>
> Thanks!
> Robert C.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Scott R. Powell

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Scott R. Powell

Here 'tis for gor nisht - http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12914/pg12914.html

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Scott R. Powell <[hidden email]> wrote:

Good grief, I have that as a Little Blue Book published by E. Haldeman-Julius, falling apart on high acid content paper.
Scott
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Paul Paryski <[hidden email]> wrote:
Take a look at this:

One Hundred Best Books

John Cowper Powys
ISBN10: 1116904438 ISBN13: 9781116904437
Publisher: BiblioLife, LLC
Format: Paperback
Publication date: 07 Nov 2009

cheers, Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Robert --

The St. John's graduate in me says "whoopie"! Here are 10, in no particular order:

Shakespeare: Sonnets
Shakespeare: Romeo & Juliet
Dante: The Divine Comedy
Homer: The Iliad
Tolstoy: War & Peace
Cervantes: Don Quixote
Eliot: Middlemarch
Austen: Pride & Prejudice
Fitzgerald: The Great Gatsby
Melville: Moby Dick

If you're okay with an anthology, The Oxford Book of Humorous Prose is well worth a look, as is anything by Wodehouse, I believe.

I'm sure some will quibble with my choices (too Western, too St. John's-y, not really fiction), but I'd aver at least some of them qualify in the sense of being "based on a true story", if not necessarily fiction.

Happy Reading!

- Claiborne Booker -

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:44 pm
Subject: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Robert Holmes

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

So I take it that our working definition of "best" is "will look good on the coffee table and impress liberal arts graduates" rather than "will be read and enjoyed"? ;-)

-- R

P.S. Also: when selecting foreign authors you must specify the translation if you are going to maximize your pseud points. It's not Don Quixote, it's the Grossman Quixote. It's not The Brothers Karamazov, it's the Volokhonsky Karamazov. Collect enough points and you get a merit badge!

Steve Smith

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

I've just been reading a collection of Twain's writings on writing itself.

Therefore I have to offer the classic Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.
It is the classic American Novel, and not just (though especially) for
young men.

I squirm at Frank's recommendation of (anything by?) Cormac McCarthy,
especially Blood Meridian. Of all his works, No Country for Old Men is
the closest I would give him to literary quality. I know several on
this list are personal friends/acquaintances with him. No offense... he
certainly writes of powerful subjects and with strong and serviceable
style. If you have to include something from a local and contemporary
author, go for it, but pick up No Country before Meridian. In that
very genre/topic, (the overly romanticized but brutal "old west"), I
recommend Larry McMurtry's (strangely enough) Lonesome Dove (the novel
which was serialized as TV Schlock) where (like Blood Meridian) the
disaffected riffraff from the defeated Confederate South came West to
play out their myriad psychoses on eachother, on the native inhabitants
and on anyone else unfortunate enough to be living west of the Miss.

From the same era I'd recommend Jack London (short stories over
novels?) and a Dicken's (Copperfield).
To avoid total male dominance, I'd recommend a Jane Austen (P&P or S&S
equally).
For the mystical allegorical journey, maybe some Hesse (Siddartha)
For some token (but grand) Science Fiction, I'd have to give Heinlein
(Stranger in a Strange Land) and Stephenson (Snow Crash or Diamond Age)
*some* literary credit.
Stephen King (even his schlocky horror) is literary in his style and
storytelling... Green Mile and Rita Hayworth/Shawshank come to mind.
How about something deeply classical like Homer or even (sorry, but it
is more fiction than history or prophecy for me) parts of the Bible? I'd
also recommend something Sufi, maybe by Rumi (where *is* the border
between poetry and fiction?).
And a Kipling and a Conan Doyle
Solzhenitsyn's ( A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch)
Recent literary highs for me include
God of Small Things (Arundhati Roy)
Life of Pi (Yann Martel)
White Tiger (Aravand Adiga)
Kite Runner (Hosseini)
We Shall Know our Velocities (Eggers)
Motherless Brooklyn (Johnathan Letham)

Am I over ten yet? So many books, so little time.

- Steve

> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and
> would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best
> Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and
> available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google
> searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one
> particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all
> (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I
> know the suggestions will be good ones for me!
>
> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote
> on them.
>
> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>
> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
> McCarthy
>
> Thanks!
> Robert C.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Hugh Trenchard

Hugh Trenchard wrote circa 10-10-08 02:56 PM:
> The Glass Bead Game, by Hermann Hesse, is a must-read for any
> self-respecting complexity theorist :-)

+1

I was also _very_ fond of Narcissus and Goldmund... Oh! Oh! and
Siddhartha and Steppenwolf, as well.

I'd also add the following to the list:

The Magus by John Fowles
The Illuminatus! Trilogy by Shea and Wilson
Mother London by Michael Moorcock
All the King's Men by Robert Penn Warren

What's that... 8?

Hm.

Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco
Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut

There. That's 10. ;-)

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Geeze, doesn't anybody like good science fiction any more? Larry Nivin's Ringworld. Poul Anderson's Gateway series.

--Doug

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I've just been reading a collection of Twain's writings on writing itself.

Therefore I have to offer the classic Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. It is the classic American Novel, and not just (though especially) for young men.

I squirm at Frank's recommendation of (anything by?) Cormac McCarthy, especially Blood Meridian. Of all his works, No Country for Old Men is the closest I would give him to literary quality. I know several on this list are personal friends/acquaintances with him. No offense... he certainly writes of powerful subjects and with strong and serviceable style. If you have to include something from a local and contemporary author, go for it, but pick up No Country before Meridian. In that very genre/topic, (the overly romanticized but brutal "old west"), I recommend Larry McMurtry's (strangely enough) Lonesome Dove (the novel which was serialized as TV Schlock) where (like Blood Meridian) the disaffected riffraff from the defeated Confederate South came West to play out their myriad psychoses on eachother, on the native inhabitants and on anyone else unfortunate enough to be living west of the Miss.

From the same era I'd recommend Jack London (short stories over novels?) and a Dicken's (Copperfield).
To avoid total male dominance, I'd recommend a Jane Austen (P&P or S&S equally).
For the mystical allegorical journey, maybe some Hesse (Siddartha)
For some token (but grand) Science Fiction, I'd have to give Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) and Stephenson (Snow Crash or Diamond Age) *some* literary credit.
Stephen King (even his schlocky horror) is literary in his style and storytelling... Green Mile and Rita Hayworth/Shawshank come to mind.
How about something deeply classical like Homer or even (sorry, but it is more fiction than history or prophecy for me) parts of the Bible? I'd also recommend something Sufi, maybe by Rumi (where *is* the border between poetry and fiction?).
And a Kipling and a Conan Doyle
Solzhenitsyn's ( A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch)
Recent literary highs for me include
God of Small Things (Arundhati Roy)
Life of Pi (Yann Martel)
White Tiger (Aravand Adiga)
Kite Runner (Hosseini)
We Shall Know our Velocities (Eggers)
Motherless Brooklyn (Johnathan Letham)

Am I over ten yet? So many books, so little time.

- Steve

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes

R -

So I take it that our working definition of "best" is "will look good on the coffee table and impress liberal arts graduates" rather than "will be read and enjoyed"? ;-)

I don't think that was the original question. Is it evidenced in some of the answers? Or is this just Doug spoofing your e-mail address? ;)

I assumed he was asking for "good storytelling with high quality writing and maybe some allegorical or other added value"

And at the risk of it looking like I'm trying to impress liberal arts majors, let me add (well beyond 10 now) Luis Borges - Ficciones (or Aleph)
and
Marquez's 100 Years of Solitude

Carry On!
- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Doug -
> Geeze, doesn't anybody like good science fiction any more? Larry
> Nivin's Ringworld. Poul Anderson's Gateway series.
I love that shit (much of SF)... but don't quite want to call most of it
literature... great storytelling and exposition of esoteric scientific
concepts... but not quite always what I want to call literature...

It is a good question... in this crowd, naturally sympathetic (I
presume) to Science Fiction. "What can pass as literature?" I know a
few SF authors and many are great at what I said above of your
suggestions (storytelling exposition)... and some of these works may be
remembered *as* literary... with enough perspective of time.

Jack Williamson was a friend and a prolific writer from the golden age
of SF and beyond (Scientifiction he first called it in 1927 and was
still cranking things out through the rest of his 100+ lifespan) but I
know he didn't claim to have been writing literature. The closest might
be his post WWII novel "the Humanoid Touch". It was what rescued him
from a long writer's block after realizing the horrors that technology
had wrought (in war) when they had been promised as a panacea.
Including by himself. It was not his normal pulp-SF adventure/space-opera.

Until the 60's I don't think I can call out any other SF as Literature
(though the Pre-SF Scientific Romance period with Verne and Doyle has
some good entries). London and Twain dabbled in that realm successfully
too.

Maybe I'm looking for more/deeper social significance than most SF even
aspires to (much less achieves)?

Some with literary talent/style:

Heinlein (only with Stranger and maybe a couple of others)
Samuel Delaney
Maybe Clarke and Asimov... barely?
Tolkien (Fantasy, not SF though)
Sterling and Gibson (barely).
Stephenson (barely... maybe if he can nail what he was trying to do with
his Baroque Cycle)
King (though not so much his SF/Horror)

In our own neighborhood, I might want to nominate (some of) the works of
Walter Jon Williams, J R R Martin, Laura Mixon-Gould and Sage Walker as
candidates for having literary qualities. Steve (SM) Stirling gets a
"maybe"... I think he has the talent as a writer and a storyteller and
there is significance woven through his works but he somehow gets caught
up more in juvenile/egoist stuff before he gets down to the important
cool, adult issues.

Margaret Atwood is assumed to be literary while her content is SF.
Ursula LeGuin is sometimes credited with the same.
Vonnegut is almost pure SF and yet he is usually considered contemporary
Am Lit. and I grant him (most of) that categorization.

I love the works of the Hard SF folks (Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Niven,
Benson, Bear, Benford, Forward .........) and especially those with a
good solid social message/question (Stranger, Dune, 2001, ...) But a
lot of it is mostly escapist (albeit into deep scientific curiosities)...

I personally do not snub SF as literature because of it's subject...
I'm sure some do. And I think good storytelling is key to literature
(and I find much of SF to be good examples of that). And some SF
authors are very good writers in the technical sense (though many are not).

I guess the final key for me is the social relevance. Is the story
saying something important... not just interesting and not just well
written. That is where (by volume) SF (and most popular fiction) falls
short. Romances, westerns, crime, mystery, espionage, etc. all have
good storytellers and some good writers... but the deeper social
significance seems too often missing or at least thin.

Maybe I read too much SF at a young age and missed the social
significance of (much of) it, or maybe I developed a taste for it from
the few examples I did encounter young... I'd love to be reminded of
the many authors and stories I read "back when" that may very well have
carried more than grand ideas and fun adventures in space and time (and
the inner space of scientific ideas).

On re-evaluation (reflection?) I do realize that parts of Anderson's
Gateway series probably do deserve a literary nod... and maybe Niven's
FootFall (though I read it for my love of dystopianism) too.

Among contemporary popular writers, Martin Cruz Smith's work (Stallion
Gate, Red Square, Gorky Park, Stalin's Ghost, Rising Sun) are exceptions
to this generality (I'm waay over my 10 sorry). He tells a good story,
with good imagery, dialog, exposition and the stories he tells and the
characters he builds are not just interesting but important to the human
experience. I'm not big on "character" novels but his Arkady Renko
actually works for me on repitition... the crazy Russian bastard
actually makes sense.

Just because I'm not a liberal arts major doesn't mean I don't read
critically (as well as for informational, educational, informational and
escapist) reasons.

Damn, I'm having a ramble-y day... sorry to expose all of you to all of
this... glad you have a "delete" key and the ability to skim lightly
over such. I do hope someone (else) has some strong opinions and ideas
about what makes literature and how does that fit with SF (and other
usually escapist/popular genres) and that they read far enough to take
the challenge here.

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Pamela McCorduck

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Lists like this are always a bit odd. I got dressed down last night (gently but firmly) by a professor of English who couldn't believe that I thought Brothers K. was the most tedious thing I've ever read half of (couldn't drive myself to read the second half). I like other Dostoevsky--just not Bros. K.

I can't even name my own top ten favorites. It's such a fluid list . There are books I admire without loving, and books I love without being able to argue for their admirability. I deeply admire "Ulysses" by James Joyce, but love only parts of it (the parts that remind me of my Irish grandpa, plus a few other parts).

But certainly "Moby-Dick" (George Duncan and I re-read it this summer in a small group); certainly George Eliot's "Middlemarch," Anthony Trollope's "The Way We Live Now," and on the admirable-even-if-I-didn't-love-it list, "War and Peace," which I re-read last summer, and realized that Tolstoy was trying desperately to capture complexity as we know it now, but he didn't have the vocabulary nor the scientific insights to be able to understand that. But he knew *something* was afoot in the Napoleonic Wars, and it wasn't just Napoleon on the warpath.

Pamela

On Oct 8, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Doug -
Geeze, doesn't anybody like good science fiction any more? Larry Nivin's Ringworld. Poul Anderson's Gateway series.
I love that shit (much of SF)... but don't quite want to call most of it literature...   great storytelling and exposition of esoteric scientific concepts... but not quite always what I want to call literature...

It is a good question... in this crowd, naturally sympathetic (I presume) to Science Fiction. "What can pass as literature?"   I know a few SF authors and many are great at what I said above of your suggestions (storytelling exposition)... and some of these works may be remembered *as* literary... with enough perspective of time.

Jack Williamson was a friend and a prolific writer from the golden age of SF and beyond (Scientifiction he first called it in 1927 and was still cranking things out through the rest of his 100+ lifespan) but I know he didn't claim to have been writing literature. The closest might be his post WWII novel "the Humanoid Touch". It was what rescued him from a long writer's block after realizing the horrors that technology had wrought (in war) when they had been promised as a panacea. Including by himself. It was not his normal pulp-SF adventure/space-opera.

Until the 60's I don't think I can call out any other SF as Literature (though the Pre-SF Scientific Romance period with Verne and Doyle has some good entries). London and Twain dabbled in that realm successfully too.

Maybe I'm looking for more/deeper social significance than most SF even aspires to (much less achieves)?

Some with literary talent/style:

Heinlein (only with Stranger and maybe a couple of others)
Samuel Delaney
Maybe Clarke and Asimov... barely?
Tolkien (Fantasy, not SF though)
Sterling and Gibson (barely).
Stephenson (barely... maybe if he can nail what he was trying to do with his Baroque Cycle)
King (though not so much his SF/Horror)

In our own neighborhood, I might want to nominate (some of) the works of Walter Jon Williams, J R R Martin, Laura Mixon-Gould and Sage Walker as candidates for having literary qualities. Steve (SM) Stirling gets a "maybe"... I think he has the talent as a writer and a storyteller and there is significance woven through his works but he somehow gets caught up more in juvenile/egoist stuff before he gets down to the important cool, adult issues.

Margaret Atwood is assumed to be literary while her content is SF.
Ursula LeGuin is sometimes credited with the same.
Vonnegut is almost pure SF and yet he is usually considered contemporary Am Lit. and I grant him (most of) that categorization.

I love the works of the Hard SF folks (Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Niven, Benson, Bear, Benford, Forward .........) and especially those with a good solid social message/question (Stranger, Dune, 2001, ...) But a lot of it is mostly escapist (albeit into deep scientific curiosities)...

I personally do not snub SF as literature because of it's subject... I'm sure some do. And I think good storytelling is key to literature (and I find much of SF to be good examples of that). And some SF authors are very good writers in the technical sense (though many are not).

I guess the final key for me is the social relevance. Is the story saying something important... not just interesting and not just well written.   That is where (by volume) SF (and most popular fiction) falls short. Romances, westerns, crime, mystery, espionage, etc. all have good storytellers and some good writers... but the deeper social significance seems too often missing or at least thin.

Maybe I read too much SF at a young age and missed the social significance of (much of) it, or maybe I developed a taste for it from the few examples I did encounter young... I'd love to be reminded of the many authors and stories I read "back when" that may very well have carried more than grand ideas and fun adventures in space and time (and the inner space of scientific ideas).

On re-evaluation (reflection?) I do realize that parts of Anderson's Gateway series probably do deserve a literary nod... and maybe Niven's FootFall (though I read it for my love of dystopianism) too.

Among contemporary popular writers, Martin Cruz Smith's work (Stallion Gate, Red Square, Gorky Park, Stalin's Ghost, Rising Sun) are exceptions to this generality (I'm waay over my 10 sorry).   He tells a good story, with good imagery, dialog, exposition and the stories he tells and the characters he builds are not just interesting but important to the human experience. I'm not big on "character" novels but his Arkady Renko actually works for me on repitition... the crazy Russian bastard actually makes sense.

Just because I'm not a liberal arts major doesn't mean I don't read critically (as well as for informational, educational, informational and escapist) reasons.

Damn, I'm having a ramble-y day... sorry to expose all of you to all of this... glad you have a "delete" key and the ability to skim lightly over such. I do hope someone (else) has some strong opinions and ideas about what makes literature and how does that fit with SF (and other usually escapist/popular genres) and that they read far enough to take the challenge here.

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

"How quickly weeks glide away in such a city as New York, especially when you reckon among your friends some of the most agreeable people in either hemisphere."

	Fanny Trollope, "Domestic Manners of the Americans"

Carl Tollander

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Well, like an exercise program, the best books are the one's one actually rereads.

I was that liberal arts major, until I came across computer science, then all was lost, then complexity and developmental biology, and all was *really* lost...virtually nothing on the English major curriculum is still on my bookshelf, hmmm, 'cepting 'Alice' and maybe some Carlyle essays, TS Elliot and Coleridge. Oh, OK, there's some Dante and an old Byron, fine, geez.

I agree with Pamela, Dostoyevsky fine to read once, but tedium thereafter, maybe even the first time.   Not something I would even keep in a box, let alone on 180 feet of bookshelves. (Oh, harsh, yes - well, ok, hmm, I haven't looked through all my boxes for quite awhile, maybe it's there, I'm not saying it sucks, just that I never connected with it).

I wouldn't put these up as "10 best", books in any global sense, but they're some I've read in recent years and continue to pull down and reread from time to time.   The object would be to have fun reading rather than to read 'Great Litrichar"?   I try not to read anything because I feel I should, or because it's on a bucket list.

Non-Science-Fiction:
"The Last Samurai", by Helen DeWitt.
"West With the Night", by Beryl Markham
"If On A Winter's Night A Traveler", by Italo Calvino
"One Hundred Years of Solitude", by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
"Baroque Cycle", "Cryptonomicon" by Neil Stephenson (ok, I was kinda skimming the second time through)
"Ceremony", by Leslie Marmon Silko

Science Fiction - I mostly select books by authors I like:
Greg Benford, just about anything, I liked "In the Ocean of Night" and "Across the Sea of Suns", also "Foundation's Fear"
Gene Wolfe, just about anything, really like the short stories.
Neil Stephenson, "The Diamond Age"
Bruce Sterling, most particularly "Distraction"
Greg Bear, most recently "Darwin's Radio", but also "Blood Music", or "The Way" series.
C J Cherryh, particularly Foreigner series.
Greg Egan, shorter stories, novelettes.
R A Lafferty, "Arrive at Easterwine" and some of his short stories
Larry Niven, just about anything connected to the Ringworld universe.
Phillip K. Dick, just about anything

I do aspire to read some Japanese classics, e.g. "Tale of the Genji", or the "Kojiki" but there hasn't been time, what with not being sufficiently good at Japanese, and my music and all.   Note to self, figure out a way to live longer.

Carl

On 10/8/10 5:56 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:

Lists like this are always a bit odd. I got dressed down last night (gently but firmly) by a professor of English who couldn't believe that I thought Brothers K. was the most tedious thing I've ever read half of (couldn't drive myself to read the second half). I like other Dostoevsky--just not Bros. K.

I can't even name my own top ten favorites. It's such a fluid list . There are books I admire without loving, and books I love without being able to argue for their admirability. I deeply admire "Ulysses" by James Joyce, but love only parts of it (the parts that remind me of my Irish grandpa, plus a few other parts).

But certainly "Moby-Dick" (George Duncan and I re-read it this summer in a small group); certainly George Eliot's "Middlemarch," Anthony Trollope's "The Way We Live Now," and on the admirable-even-if-I-didn't-love-it list, "War and Peace," which I re-read last summer, and realized that Tolstoy was trying desperately to capture complexity as we know it now, but he didn't have the vocabulary nor the scientific insights to be able to understand that. But he knew *something* was afoot in the Napoleonic Wars, and it wasn't just Napoleon on the warpath.

Pamela
On Oct 8, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Doug -

Geeze, doesn't anybody like good science fiction any more? Larry Nivin's Ringworld. Poul Anderson's Gateway series.

I love that shit (much of SF)... but don't quite want to call most of it literature...   great storytelling and exposition of esoteric scientific concepts... but not quite always what I want to call literature...

It is a good question... in this crowd, naturally sympathetic (I presume) to Science Fiction. "What can pass as literature?"   I know a few SF authors and many are great at what I said above of your suggestions (storytelling exposition)... and some of these works may be remembered *as* literary... with enough perspective of time.

Jack Williamson was a friend and a prolific writer from the golden age of SF and beyond (Scientifiction he first called it in 1927 and was still cranking things out through the rest of his 100+ lifespan) but I know he didn't claim to have been writing literature. The closest might be his post WWII novel "the Humanoid Touch". It was what rescued him from a long writer's block after realizing the horrors that technology had wrought (in war) when they had been promised as a panacea. Including by himself. It was not his normal pulp-SF adventure/space-opera.

Until the 60's I don't think I can call out any other SF as Literature (though the Pre-SF Scientific Romance period with Verne and Doyle has some good entries). London and Twain dabbled in that realm successfully too.

Maybe I'm looking for more/deeper social significance than most SF even aspires to (much less achieves)?

Some with literary talent/style:

Heinlein (only with Stranger and maybe a couple of others)
Samuel Delaney
Maybe Clarke and Asimov... barely?
Tolkien (Fantasy, not SF though)
Sterling and Gibson (barely).
Stephenson (barely... maybe if he can nail what he was trying to do with his Baroque Cycle)
King (though not so much his SF/Horror)

In our own neighborhood, I might want to nominate (some of) the works of Walter Jon Williams, J R R Martin, Laura Mixon-Gould and Sage Walker as candidates for having literary qualities. Steve (SM) Stirling gets a "maybe"... I think he has the talent as a writer and a storyteller and there is significance woven through his works but he somehow gets caught up more in juvenile/egoist stuff before he gets down to the important cool, adult issues.

Margaret Atwood is assumed to be literary while her content is SF.
Ursula LeGuin is sometimes credited with the same.
Vonnegut is almost pure SF and yet he is usually considered contemporary Am Lit. and I grant him (most of) that categorization.

I love the works of the Hard SF folks (Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Niven, Benson, Bear, Benford, Forward .........) and especially those with a good solid social message/question (Stranger, Dune, 2001, ...) But a lot of it is mostly escapist (albeit into deep scientific curiosities)...

I personally do not snub SF as literature because of it's subject... I'm sure some do. And I think good storytelling is key to literature (and I find much of SF to be good examples of that). And some SF authors are very good writers in the technical sense (though many are not).

I guess the final key for me is the social relevance. Is the story saying something important... not just interesting and not just well written.   That is where (by volume) SF (and most popular fiction) falls short. Romances, westerns, crime, mystery, espionage, etc. all have good storytellers and some good writers... but the deeper social significance seems too often missing or at least thin.

Maybe I read too much SF at a young age and missed the social significance of (much of) it, or maybe I developed a taste for it from the few examples I did encounter young... I'd love to be reminded of the many authors and stories I read "back when" that may very well have carried more than grand ideas and fun adventures in space and time (and the inner space of scientific ideas).

On re-evaluation (reflection?) I do realize that parts of Anderson's Gateway series probably do deserve a literary nod... and maybe Niven's FootFall (though I read it for my love of dystopianism) too.

Among contemporary popular writers, Martin Cruz Smith's work (Stallion Gate, Red Square, Gorky Park, Stalin's Ghost, Rising Sun) are exceptions to this generality (I'm waay over my 10 sorry).   He tells a good story, with good imagery, dialog, exposition and the stories he tells and the characters he builds are not just interesting but important to the human experience. I'm not big on "character" novels but his Arkady Renko actually works for me on repitition... the crazy Russian bastard actually makes sense.

Just because I'm not a liberal arts major doesn't mean I don't read critically (as well as for informational, educational, informational and escapist) reasons.

Damn, I'm having a ramble-y day... sorry to expose all of you to all of this... glad you have a "delete" key and the ability to skim lightly over such. I do hope someone (else) has some strong opinions and ideas about what makes literature and how does that fit with SF (and other usually escapist/popular genres) and that they read far enough to take the challenge here.

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
"How quickly weeks glide away in such a city as New York, especially when you reckon among your friends some of the most agreeable people in either hemisphere."

Fanny Trollope, "Domestic Manners of the Americans"
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Stephen Guerin

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

I'd add "Sometimes a Great Notion", by Ken Kesey

and pretty much any volume of Encyclopedia Brown. That kid can solve
anything.

-S
_____________________________________________________________
[hidden email]
(m) 505-216-6226 (o) 505-995-0206
sfcomplex.org | simtable.com | ambientpixel.com | redfish.com

On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and
> would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best
> Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and
> available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time.
> Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one
> particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all
> (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I
> know the suggestions will be good ones for me!
>
> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote
> on them.
>
> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>
> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
> McCarthy
>
> Thanks!
> Robert C.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Steve

re: Brown...
You have to pick specific volumes! Sorry if I didn't make that clear,
otherwise someone could suggest a decalogy and 9 others, ie 19 works!

Thanks
Robert C

On 10/8/10 11:22 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:

> I'd add "Sometimes a Great Notion", by Ken Kesey
>
> and pretty much any volume of Encyclopedia Brown. That kid can solve
> anything.
>
> -S
> _____________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]
> (m) 505-216-6226 (o) 505-995-0206
> sfcomplex.org | simtable.com | ambientpixel.com | redfish.com
>
> On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>
>> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and
>> would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best
>> Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and
>> available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time.
>> Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one
>> particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all
>> (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I
>> know the suggestions will be good ones for me!
>>
>> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote
>> on them.
>>
>> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>>
>> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
>> McCarthy
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Robert C.
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

Alison Jones

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

After 10 years of lurking something I can finally comment on.

In no particlular order:

Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
Winter's Tale by Mark Helprin
Dead Souls by Nikolai Gogol
Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie
Sometime a Great Notion by Ken Kesey
Beloved by Toni Morrison
Middlemarch by George Eliot
Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov
To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf
Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Death in Venice by Thomas Mann

There are so many more!
Alison
(Yeah, I know it is 11. And you are so right Robert (Holmes), I should
really say Pevear and Volokhonsky's Karenina ☺)

On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and
> would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best
> Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and
> available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time.
> Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one
> particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all
> (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I
> know the suggestions will be good ones for me!
>
> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote
> on them.
>
> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>
> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
> McCarthy
>
> Thanks!
> Robert C.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

scaganoff

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

All great suggestions and timely since my library book is due back
tomorrow. I'll add a couple of other suggestions:

The English Patient (Ondaatje)
Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance (Persig) (not sure if this
counts as fiction)
A Glass Darkly (Philip K Dick)
On the Road (Kerouac)
Unbearable Lightness of Being (Kundera)
Heart of Darkness (Conrad)

and for the Illiad I strongly recommend the audio book with Derek
Jacobi reading the Fagles translation (abridged).

+1 for all Herman Hesse titles mentioned.

Regards,
Saul

On Saturday, October 9, 2010, Alison Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> After 10 years of lurking something I can finally comment on.
>
> In no particlular order:
>
> Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
> Winter's Tale by Mark Helprin
> Dead Souls by Nikolai Gogol
> Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie
> Sometime a Great Notion by Ken Kesey
> Beloved by Toni Morrison
> Middlemarch by George Eliot
> Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov
> To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf
> Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky
> Death in Venice by Thomas Mann
>
>
> There are so many more!
> Alison
> (Yeah, I know it is 11. And you are so right Robert (Holmes), I should really say Pevear and Volokhonsky's Karenina ☺)
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>
>
> Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!
>
> Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.
>
> My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:
>
> "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy
>
> Thanks!
> Robert C.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Saul Caganoff
Enterprise IT Architect
Mobile: +61 410 430 809
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/scaganoff

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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