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The Best 10 Fictional Works

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QEF@aol.com

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Greetings, all --

Great to see all the suggestions and conversations around them. One author with a Santa Fe (and perhaps an SFI) connection not yet mentioned, I believe, is Douglas Noel Adams (DNA). I'd recommend the Adams translation of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

As to creating a reading group, the pedagogical technique at St. John's (sorry to be tedious) is to have the books lead the discussion, largely by having a person designated to ask an "opening question" and then encouraging people to focus on the text and have a conversation about it. After about two hours, most folks are suffering from caffeine/nicotine withdrawal and agree to discuss it further over a meal/scotch/cigarette. Works for us...

- Claiborne -

-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

On Oct 9, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Leigh Fanning wrote:

And I (also) say "Why English", why not World Literature or something

more expansive... and for the benefit of the women on this list... why

do we (mostly) read the words of "dead white men"? Really? Without

going all feminist, I'd really like to have more submissions here of

women writers. Until 30 years ago, there weren't that many published...

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, early 1800s, is a great book. Is it literature? I'm not
qualified to say, but it's a fantastic story with beautiful writing.

Yes, I certainly think of it as literature. If I were world literature czar (well, czarina) I would insist every budding scientist read it.

The male dominated Western educational experience is what most of us have had.
It's all we know, until we jump to other pools of thought and nonconform to
the establishment that nurtured (controlled?) us in the tender years.

Some of the most unusual and ground-breaking English literature has been written by women. I mean in particular, Jane Austen, who was first to understand that the age of reading aloud was dying, and it was time to write for the reader who reads alone and in his or her own head. Before Austen, English novels were written to be read aloud to a group. She is also killingly funny about human nature. On these grounds alone, Columbia University's core curriculum admitted to the canon its first female writer in Jane. If you read Charlotte Bronte's "Wuthering Heights," the novel not the movie, you will hardly believe your eyes. Astounding stuff. "Jane Eyre" is the grandmother of a thousand and one derivatives, but is a stunning piece in its own right.

So you see how futile a "top ten" is?

"How quickly weeks glide away in such a city as New York, especially when you reckon among your friends some of the most agreeable people in either hemisphere."

    Fanny Trollope, "Domestic Manners of the Americans"

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Rich Murray

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

1. A Course in Miracles, J. Christ, 1975 -- JC through Helen Schucman,
Columbia University Medical Center research psychologist, in 1965-1972, the
foundation for post-Christian Christianity -- as a willing victim of this
relentless subversion of all concepts since August, 1977, I never tire of
its brilliant symphonic pithy multi-level fractal prose, much of it in
iambic pentameter -- the first daily lesson, "Nothing I see means
anything." -- nothing like a direct poke in the eye approach for challenging
common sense, historical religions, and all sciences...

2. The Nature of Personal Reality, Jane Roberts, 1974 -- tiny science
fiction writer channels big booming emphatic jovial voice of "Seth" -- we
each create our own multidimensional reality, in collaboration with our
other simultaneous lifetimes in real-time present moment interaction with
past and future selves, as well as selves in equally valid parallel probable
history streams, within higher dimensional identity levels all the way up to
All That Is...

3. Island, Aldous Huxley, 1962 -- he saved the manuscript as his house
burned down -- poor literature brilliantly combines ideal society with
psychedelic mysticism -- inspired my work as a hospice care giver in Santa
Fe 1985 to 2005...

4. Narcissus and Goldmund, Herman Hesse, 1930 -- acetic scholar monk and
life friend passionate artist.

5. The Glass Bead Game (Magister Ludi), Herman Hesse, 1943 -- [ Adualisic
Mysticism/The Instant Zen School
"I suddenly realized that in the language, or at any rate in the spirit of
the Glass Bead Game, everything actually was all-meaningful, that every
symbol and combination of symbols led not hither and yon, not to single
examples, experiments, and proofs, but into the center, the mystery and
innermost heart of the world, into primal knowledge. Every transition from
major to minor in a sonata, every transformation of a myth or a religious
cult, every classical or artistic formulation was, I realized in that
flashing moment, if seen with truly a meditative mind, nothing but a direct
route into the interior of the cosmic mystery, where in the alternation
between inhaling and exhaling, between heaven and earth, between Yin and
Yang, holiness is forever being created." Hermann Hesse, The Glass Bead
Game ]

5. Childhood's End, Arthur C. Clarke, 1950, 1953 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood's_End

6. Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert A. Heinlein, 1961 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land

7. The Reverse of the Medal, Patrick O'Brian, 1986 -- historical navel novel
, eleventh in the Aubrey-Maturin series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reverse_of_the_Medal

8, Ender's Game, Orson Scott Cord, 1985 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender's_Game

9. Point Counter Point, Aldous Huxley, 1928 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Counter_Point

10. Appointment With Death, Agatha Christie, 1938 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointment_with_Death

11. All Quiet on the Western Front, Erich Maria Remarque, 1929 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front

12. The Killer Angels, Michael Shaara, 1974 --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killer_Angels
_______________________________________________

Rich Murray, MA
Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology,
BS MIT 1964, history and physics,
1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
505-501-2298 [hidden email]

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___________________________________________

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Nick Thompson

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve Smith and Lee Rudolph, and everybody,

Why would I want a PhD to lead a discussion on Literature?

Because, even though I was a participant in the Berkeley dustup of the sixties, I still think that expertise has its place in the world. As those of you who have participated in one of our Coffee House Seminars know, to me leadership of a seminar is not lecturing and it is not laying a heavy hand on the conversation. But it is, perhaps, being able to call on a long history of thinking about a subject to suggest provocative materials and to undermine any hastily arrived at consensuses.

Academia is not the only source of wisdom in the world by any means, but among the many sources of wisdom, it contributes something special.

If any of you know of a retired or an underemployed literature professor, I wish you would have them give me a call.

All the best,

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Lee -

Why would you want to ask a PhD in English to "lead"

you?  Ph.D.s in English are to the joy of reading

fiction or poetry as firefighters are to fires.

I think I understand Nick's need for a PhD-person... (something about establishing credibility in the whole City College thing).

But this is the *very same Nick* who just wrote:

Out of some, I got wonderful wonderful work, and they went on to take charge of their education, rather than to be victims of it. Lord how I miss it.

And I (also) say "Why English", why not World Literature or something more expansive... and for the benefit of the women on this list... why do we (mostly) read the words of "dead white men"? Really? Without going all feminist, I'd really like to have more submissions here of women writers. Until 30 years ago, there weren't that many published...

And responsive to the points made about "whence Poetry" in this discussion... I offer my (latest) favorite Poet...

Her name is Vera, Vera Pavlova (She shall tell you the truth and the truth shall make you drool!). She is awesome.. and while she *is* white (but not exactly western, certainly not American/British) she is not dead and she is not male.

Of course there are exceptions, just as there always

turn out to be a few arsonists in every volunteer

fire department.  (You might call them "the Firebug

Variations".)  And I'm sure any FRIAM-related Ph.D.s

in English are just like that!

And they are all named Guy Montag (at least on their blogs).

Grant Holland

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Stephen Thompson

Don't forget "Sound and Sense" by Laurence Perrine.

Grant Holland
VP, Product Development and Software Engineering
NuTech Solutions
404.427.4759

On 10/9/2010 6:29 PM, Stephen Thompson wrote:

> Pamela & Steve:
>
> Winging their way to me via the magic of the Internet
> and Amazon Books are three books: two recommended here:
>
> 1. James Woods "How Fiction Works"
> 2. Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows"
>
> and one recommended by a reviewer of Wood's book (not a happy review)
> Percy Lubbock's "The Craft of Fiction"
>
> (Not to mention I am also still working on Menand's "The Metaphysical
> Club"
> also recommended in this forum)
>
> Now if only you physicists can get that faster-than-light drive working
> I can hitch a ride and have sufficient time to read....
>
> Thanks,
> Steph T
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/9/2010 5:51 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> Steph T.
>>>
>>> For scifi, my Fahrenheit451 book is "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny
>>>
>> I'll see your "Lord" and raise you a "Jack" (of Shadows)... Zelazny
>> (our own hometown boy) was awesome... I miss him. And his works.
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Nick Thompson

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by QEF@aol.com

Clairborne,

I absolutely agree with the restraint shown by tutors at St. Johns in “leading” discussions, but almost every tutor at St Johns has a phd in something and, in addition, has spent more or less of a professional life time reading and discussing Those Books.

The effect of a few well posed questions in the course of a couple of hours of discussion can be dramatic.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 7:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

On Oct 9, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Leigh Fanning wrote:

And I (also) say "Why English", why not World Literature or something

more expansive... and for the benefit of the women on this list... why

do we (mostly) read the words of "dead white men"? Really? Without

going all feminist, I'd really like to have more submissions here of

women writers. Until 30 years ago, there weren't that many published...

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, early 1800s, is a great book. Is it literature? I'm not
qualified to say, but it's a fantastic story with beautiful writing.

Yes, I certainly think of it as literature. If I were world literature czar (well, czarina) I would insist every budding scientist read it.

The male dominated Western educational experience is what most of us have had.
It's all we know, until we jump to other pools of thought and nonconform to
the establishment that nurtured (controlled?) us in the tender years.

So you see how futile a "top ten" is?

"How quickly weeks glide away in such a city as New York, especially when you reckon among your friends some of the most agreeable people in either hemisphere."

    Fanny Trollope, "Domestic Manners of the Americans"

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Stephen Guerin

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Leigh Fanning

On Oct 9, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Leigh Fanning wrote:

> Likewise, I am keenly aware as well that we are largely reading only
> in
> Western European and American works. Can any folks on this list who
> were
> raised outside this tradition, weigh in? Additionally, I
> appreciated the
> sci-fi variant, and would be interested in a fairy tale variant.
> I've read
> wonderful tales in the German and Norse traditions, and once found a
> delightful book
> of Tolstoy fairy tales. I know nothing of Eastern ones, among others,
> and would like to remedy this if someone has suggestions along these
> lines.

Three novels that would probably be on a Chinese top 10 list:
"Dream of the Red Chamber"
"Romance of the Three Kingdoms"
"Journey to the West"

-S

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lrudolph

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On 9 Oct 2010 at 23:17, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Steve Smith and Lee Rudolph, and everybody,
>
> Why would I want a PhD to lead a discussion on Literature?
>
> Because, even though I was a participant in the Berkeley dustup of the
> sixties, I still think that expertise has its place in the world.

Yes, indeed, Nick, it has. My point is that (with certain
honorable exceptions) PhDs in English (of the sort produced
in the past 50 years or so) have an expertise that is
worse than irrelevant to what seems to be your goal.

If J.I.M. Stewart (better known to most by his pen name
of "Michael Innes", using which he wrote many quite wonderful
works of fiction--none of them fictional works, I may add--
in the detective genre, most featuring John Appleby: I
can particularly recommend _Hamlet, Revenge!_ from his
earliest period, and _The Daffodil Affair_ from his middle
period) were still available, I think *his* expertise
(demonstrated in his volume _Eight Modern Writers_ in
the Oxford History of English Literature series, on
Hardy, Henry James, Shaw, Conrad, Kipling, Yeats,
Joyce, and Lawrence) might suit your goal. Deliberately
exposing yourself to a more recently minted Ph.D. in
English, with expertise in deconstructionism and Theory
(capital letter required, and used) and all that jazz,
would give you greater head- and heartaches than any
you ever experienced trying to figure out just WTF
was going on in the Kitchen Seminar at its wooziest:
and the pain wouldn't buy you either insight or pleasure,
I am nearly certain. So why do it?

> If any of you know of a retired or an underemployed literature professor, I
> wish you would have them give me a call.

What you need is a retired or underemployed *writing* professor
(not that they all can be trusted, either), whose expertise is
(generally) in helping seminar members to engage with the text
(which, again generally, often includes not only writing by
the seminar members, but "exemplary" writing by others, in
apposite genres) in a much less high-handed way than the
kind of "engagement" with the "text" that insists on
"post-modernly-ironic 'scare quotes'" around "every"
"second" "word".

Lee

P.S. (just to Nick): I wronged Stanley Sultan by including
him in that list in my last message; he was (as far as I
can tell) at worst a "New Critic" (meaning, by now, a
member of an old, old school). But, honestly, did you
*ever* try to talk about writing with Fern?

It's bafflegab all the way down, in Ph.D. programs in
literature these days.

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Victoria Hughes

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by QEF@aol.com

Hm. Luckily such a fiction-oriented crowd may be willing to tolerate several run-on sentences. Am in the middle of a family reunion and 80th birthday party, just time enough to jot ideas down- Couldn't avoid tuning in for the latest installments though.

Interesting to watch the mentioned books morph from the more expected - and asked for - fiction "as we know it" through Trollope and Menand ( a personal favorite of mine also) to Jane Roberts, and spanning several thousand years of classic and contemporary investigations of what it means to be human. We all sure love our books, for their intellectual and caloric content, both.

Which leads me to wonder further at what fiction really means.

At some point 'fiction' becomes so influential to the development of its culture that it essentially twists time and ends up creating the future we move into. Becoming the seed of fact.

In that case is it really fiction anymore?

Consider the immense impact on culture behaviours and therefore on history of the Greek tales.

Consider also the generation or perpetuation of mythologies / religions, like several books that have been mentioned, from the Christian bible on down.

Consider also the effect of Rodenberry et al on our global behaviours - although Star Trek and Star Wars were not books first, their impact - especially Rodenberry's, who I personally think was sent from another universe to nudge us gently back into an experiment with civility and away from xenophobia - on what the future may hold besides cold-war annihilation.

There are more but the reunion brunch beckons....

Tory

ps Also thank goodness to those who've mentioned non-western, non-male, non-white books. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and reread these posts.....

On Oct 9, 2010, at 7:19 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Greetings, all --

Great to see all the suggestions and conversations around them. One author with a Santa Fe (and perhaps an SFI) connection not yet mentioned, I believe, is Douglas Noel Adams (DNA). I'd recommend the Adams translation of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

As to creating a reading group, the pedagogical technique at St. John's (sorry to be tedious) is to have the books lead the discussion, largely by having a person designated to ask an "opening question" and then encouraging people to focus on the text and have a conversation about it. After about two hours, most folks are suffering from caffeine/nicotine withdrawal and agree to discuss it further over a meal/scotch/cigarette. Works for us...

- Claiborne -

-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

On Oct 9, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Leigh Fanning wrote:

And I (also) say "Why English", why not World Literature or something

more expansive... and for the benefit of the women on this list... why

do we (mostly) read the words of "dead white men"? Really? Without

going all feminist, I'd really like to have more submissions here of

women writers. Until 30 years ago, there weren't that many published...

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, early 1800s, is a great book. Is it literature? I'm not
qualified to say, but it's a fantastic story with beautiful writing.

Yes, I certainly think of it as literature. If I were world literature czar (well, czarina) I would insist every budding scientist read it.

The male dominated Western educational experience is what most of us have had.
It's all we know, until we jump to other pools of thought and nonconform to
the establishment that nurtured (controlled?) us in the tender years.

Some of the most unusual and ground-breaking English literature has been written by women. I mean in particular, Jane Austen, who was first to understand that the age of reading aloud was dying, and it was time to write for the reader who reads alone and in his or her own head. Before Austen, English novels were written to be read aloud to a group. She is also killingly funny about human nature. On these grounds alone, Columbia University's core curriculum admitted to the canon its first female writer in Jane. If you read Charlotte Bronte's "Wuthering Heights," the novel not the movie, you will hardly believe your eyes. Astounding stuff. "Jane Eyre" is the grandmother of a thousand and one derivatives, but is a stunning piece in its own right.

So you see how futile a "top ten" is?

P.

"How quickly weeks glide away in such a city as New York, especially when you reckon among your friends some of the most agreeable people in either hemisphere."
Fanny Trollope, "Domestic Manners of the Americans"

=

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin

Thanks everyone for the tremendous response to this topic. However,
we now have over 100 submissions from which to elect the 10 Best
Fictional Works for a literary education!

I think we should stop here because that's a lot to choose from.
Shortly, I'll distribute the list for folks to vote on. I can't think
of a better way to reduce it to 10 since repeat-recommendations isn't
turning out to be a good discriminator, but I am open to suggestions.

While I've kept who recommended what I think one should not vote for
one's own submissions or we could end up in the same situation.

I also like Nick's idea of making a CUSF seminar out of the 10 best, if
someone (suitably qualified) is prepared to lead it.

Thanks,
Robert

On 10/10/10 1:00 AM, Stephen Guerin wrote:

> On Oct 9, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Leigh Fanning wrote:
>> Likewise, I am keenly aware as well that we are largely reading only in
>> Western European and American works. Can any folks on this list who
>> were
>> raised outside this tradition, weigh in? Additionally, I appreciated
>> the
>> sci-fi variant, and would be interested in a fairy tale variant.
>> I've read
>> wonderful tales in the German and Norse traditions, and once found a
>> delightful book
>> of Tolstoy fairy tales. I know nothing of Eastern ones, among others,
>> and would like to remedy this if someone has suggestions along these
>> lines.
>
>
> Three novels that would probably be on a Chinese top 10 list:
> "Dream of the Red Chamber"
> "Romance of the Three Kingdoms"
> "Journey to the West"
>
> -S
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

Steve Smith

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by lrudolph

Nick -

Why would I want a PhD to lead a discussion on Literature?

Because, even though I was a participant in the Berkeley dustup of the
sixties, I still think that expertise has its place in the world.

I wasn't actually criticizing your desire for a PhD in English to lead the seminar, but rather defending the requirement as being possibly also a *constraint* you felt in trying to develop an externally credible program.

I don't disagree that someone deeply educated and then probably spending many years practicing in a field may give them unique skills, knowledge and insight that are invaluable in leading a study in the topic.

On the other hand, many of us have experienced something completely different. We have seen that what should have been deep training may have been more like indoctrination and/or hazing... that some of those who acquire such training are not demonstrating their dedication and application to specific topic, but rather testing their endurance and perhaps that of daddy's checkbook. And what should have been years of practice and extended research/study became years of self-serving pontification. Not required of someone holding a PhD (and I know the flux of PhDs here is high) but an all too common result.

I would claim that a PhD in *anything* is neither necessary nor sufficient to practice or teach in that field. *That Said*, I'm not trying to say that a PhD rules it out either, except in some cases.

<self-aggrandizing personal anecdote>

I do not know that much about English as an Academic Profession. My wife has an English degree and taught for a few years before giving up on the idea of anyone ever learning anything they needed to know in an institution. She is much more radical than I will ever be. So she's no help in your case. She has a special trident she uses to eviscerate PhDs in English.

I took all the English/Literature/Writing courses required/desired of/by me in College from a single professor.   I had a crush on her... but she was also *very good*. I also learned fencing from her. I think I was the only one in the program not learning fencing to enhance their credibility in the SCA. She was in her 60's.   It was a romantic crush, but not the usual hormonal driven one and certainly not actionable.   I'm probably the only one in this crowd likely to be wearing a saber scar (had I tried anything cute) from my University days.   I'm sure there are plenty of former fencers here, just not ones tempted to make moves on a feisty little woman half my size and three times my age while she holds a length of sharpened steel.

She had a PhD (English, not swordplay). I was already a prolific reader, but she lead me to love to write.   She lead me to discover a much broader class of writing than I ever would have found on my own.   She caused me to move from taking a full load (16hrs) of science, math, engineering to an overfull load (21hrs) of science, math, engineering *and* language, philosophy, anthropology, etc. for the entire 5 years I was in college. At $600/semester I wanted to get my money's worth!

The result wasn't a PhD, but it was about 200 hours of coursework across the campus and most of the schools and a dozen independent study classes with the best teachers I could find and a lot of extra reading in any of the courses I found engaging. Had I not found myself with 2 young children (how did that happen?) and surprise expenses (emergency caesarean) that my income as a young entreprenuer couldn't cover I might well have continued on to/through a PhD program. But only if I found the right advisor... and the right topic.

Instead I accepted two BS Degrees (Math/Physics) and a high tech job in a small town in the mountains of NM where I could make enough money to pay off the bills I woke up one day with.

It was fabulous and I can credit most of it to a 5' tall silver haired woman whose mind and wit were even sharper than the point of her foil or the edge of her saber. She honed all of her weapons continuously, but kept the safety's on when working with the young and innocent.   I'm still in love with her.   She would be in her 90's.   She is probably still somewhere chasing young men off the fencing mat.

</self-aggrandizing personal anecdote>

Maybe she is available to lead such a seminar... though I recommend taking breaks from the dry talk about writing by old white men for some physical activity with limber steel.

Seriously, I hope you do find the right person to lead such a group, PhD or not. I don't currently allow myself the time to engage in such activities (so why do I waste so much time writing and writing and writing?) but I do approve mightily of the format for those with the time and inclination.

Sally forth!

- Steve
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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by lrudolph

The Odyssey -

Genji Monogatari - I liked Seidensticker's translation, though it was years before I finally finished reading it. I see there's yet another translation available now.

The Journey to the West - how the dharma came to the middle kingdom, and no abbreviated description could do it justice. Try the abridged edition of Anthony C. Yu's translation, first, but know that there are four volumes in the full translation and that each episode is there for a reason, if only that the audience wanted more fart jokes.

Don Quixote -

The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who Was Born In Newgate, and During a Life of Continu'd Variety For Threescore Years, Besides Her Childhood, Was Twelve Year a Whore, Five Times a Wife [Whereof Once To Her Own Brother], Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon In Virginia, At Last Grew Rich, Liv'd Honest, and Died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums. A man of the 18th century imagining life as a woman.

The Charterhouse of Parma - a nearly perfect romance, cribbed from the life adventures of some renaissance pope, transposed into the Napoleonic wars, written in 52 days by (!) a survivor of the retreat from Russia.

Ulysses -

Gravity's Rainbow -

And for a contemporary genre bender, try Snake Agent, or any other Inspector Chen novel, by Liz Williams.

And don't forget Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler.

-- rec --

Nick Thompson

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

Far from PhD’s in Santa Fe being a self aggrandizing lot, I have had a terrible time finding ones who will stand up and take pride in what they have done. It’s like we were mafia lawyers, or something. And I agree with whoever point out to the list that “english” is a language, not a field of specialization. We’re talking “literature” here.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:28 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Nick -

Why would I want a PhD to lead a discussion on Literature?

Because, even though I was a participant in the Berkeley dustup of the

sixties, I still think that expertise has its place in the world.

I do not know that much about English as an Academic Profession. My wife has an English degree and taught for a few years before giving up on the idea of anyone ever learning anything they needed to know in an institution. She is much more radical than I will ever be. So she's no help in your case. She has a special trident she uses to eviscerate PhDs in English.

I took all the English/Literature/Writing courses required/desired of/by me in College from a single professor.   I had a crush on her... but she was also *very good*. I also learned fencing from her. I think I was the only one in the program not learning fencing to enhance their credibility in the SCA. She was in her 60's.   It was a romantic crush, but not the usual hormonal driven one and certainly not actionable.   I'm probably the only one in this crowd likely to be wearing a saber scar (had I tried anything cute) from my University days.   I'm sure there are plenty of former fencers here, just not ones tempted to make moves on a feisty little woman half my size and three times my age while she holds a length of sharpened steel.

She had a PhD (English, not swordplay). I was already a prolific reader, but she lead me to love to write.   She lead me to discover a much broader class of writing than I ever would have found on my own.   She caused me to move from taking a full load (16hrs) of science, math, engineering to an overfull load (21hrs) of science, math, engineering *and* language, philosophy, anthropology, etc. for the entire 5 years I was in college. At $600/semester I wanted to get my money's worth!

The result wasn't a PhD, but it was about 200 hours of coursework across the campus and most of the schools and a dozen independent study classes with the best teachers I could find and a lot of extra reading in any of the courses I found engaging. Had I not found myself with 2 young children (how did that happen?) and surprise expenses (emergency caesarean) that my income as a young entreprenuer couldn't cover I might well have continued on to/through a PhD program. But only if I found the right advisor... and the right topic.

Instead I accepted two BS Degrees (Math/Physics) and a high tech job in a small town in the mountains of NM where I could make enough money to pay off the bills I woke up one day with.

It was fabulous and I can credit most of it to a 5' tall silver haired woman whose mind and wit were even sharper than the point of her foil or the edge of her saber. She honed all of her weapons continuously, but kept the safety's on when working with the young and innocent.   I'm still in love with her.   She would be in her 90's.   She is probably still somewhere chasing young men off the fencing mat.

Owen Densmore

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Administrator

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by George Duncan-2

George,

Are you aware that there is a Joyce Group that meets every Saturday in the Library that is doing, among other things, a line-by-line exegesis of Finnegan’s Wake? Led by a man who knows huge sections of it by heart. So, if you are reading along in one passage, and you think, “ah, that’s an echo of an earlier passage”, he can quote the passage echoed, word for word. Now THAT’s expertise.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of George Duncan
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Best 10 Fictional Works

Restricting to just novels --

"Ulysses" by James Joyce

"A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" by James Joyce

"Moby Dick" (1849) by Herman Melville

"The Sound and the Fury" (1929) by William Faulkner

"The Brothers Karamazov" by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"Crime and Punishment: by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"Atonement" (2002) by Ian McEwan

"Catch-22" (1961) by Joseph Heller

"The French Lieutenant's Woman" (1969) by John Fowles

"Herzog" (1964) by Saul Bellow

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so I've decided my literary education is somewhat lacking and would like to know this group's recommendations for the "10 Best Literary Works" I should read. They have to be works of fiction and available in English and not just say of 2009 but of all time. Google searches tend to list the best of a year or be listed by one particular publisher. This is a good group to poll since you all (most) have at least some kind of scientific/technical bent. So I know the suggestions will be good ones for me!

Once I have a list of all suggestions maybe I'll ask you all to vote on them.

My list currently starts with Frank's recommendation today:

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

Thanks!
Robert C.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

George Duncan
georgeduncanart.com

(505) 983-6895
Represented by ViVO Contemporary

Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward.
Soren Kierkegaard

Ted Carmichael

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Soooo difficult to find only ten. And I'm not sure what to do with the "literature" requirement ... I like well-written stories that transcend genre, but I wouldn't claim that is enough. And while I would recommend everything from, say, Terry Pratchett or P.G. Wodehouse, I've tried to pick typical examples for the uninitiated. I've also tried for a broad, eclectic bunch.

In no particular order:

Candide; Voltaire

The Truth; Pratchett (about writing, of course)

Watership Down; Adams

Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves; Wodehouse ("I marmaladed a slice of toast with something of a flourish...")

The Bonfire of the Vanities; Tom Wolfe (A bit dated, perhaps, but he does really nail character.)

You Can't Go Home Again; the other Tom Wolfe

Batman: Year One; Miller

At the Sign of the Naked Waiter; Herrick

The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon; King

A Wizard of Earthsea; Le Guin

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time; Haddon

Yes, these go to eleven. It's one louder.

-Ted

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Ted Carmichael, Ph.D.

Complex Systems Institute

Department of Software and Information Systems

College of Computing and Informatics

310-A Woodward Hall

UNC Charlotte

Charlotte, NC 28223

[hidden email]

Phone: 704-492-4902

Victoria Hughes

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Great to meet yet another Pratchett fan.

If you had to pick one Pratchett, which would it be?

I'd go for Thief of Time...

Tory

On Oct 11, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Ted Carmichael wrote:

Soooo difficult to find only ten. And I'm not sure what to do with the "literature" requirement ... I like well-written stories that transcend genre, but I wouldn't claim that is enough. And while I would recommend everything from, say, Terry Pratchett or P.G. Wodehouse, I've tried to pick typical examples for the uninitiated. I've also tried for a broad, eclectic bunch.

In no particular order:

Candide; Voltaire
The Truth; Pratchett (about writing, of course)
Watership Down; Adams
Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves; Wodehouse ("I marmaladed a slice of toast with something of a flourish...")

The Bonfire of the Vanities; Tom Wolfe (A bit dated, perhaps, but he does really nail character.)
You Can't Go Home Again; the other Tom Wolfe
Batman: Year One; Miller

At the Sign of the Naked Waiter; Herrick

The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon; King
A Wizard of Earthsea; Le Guin
The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time; Haddon

Yes, these go to eleven. It's one louder.

-Ted

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Ted Carmichael, Ph.D.
Complex Systems Institute

Department of Software and Information Systems
College of Computing and Informatics
310-A Woodward Hall
UNC Charlotte
Charlotte, NC 28223
[hidden email]

[hidden email]
Phone: 704-492-4902

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Me thinks submissions are continuing to digress away from the Best Works for a Literary Education goal.
Thanks
Robert C

On 10/11/10 11:30 AM, Victoria Hughes wrote:

Great to meet yet another Pratchett fan.
If you had to pick one Pratchett, which would it be?

I'd go for Thief of Time...
Tory

On Oct 11, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Ted Carmichael wrote:

Soooo difficult to find only ten. And I'm not sure what to do with the "literature" requirement ... I like well-written stories that transcend genre, but I wouldn't claim that is enough. And while I would recommend everything from, say, Terry Pratchett or P.G. Wodehouse, I've tried to pick typical examples for the uninitiated. I've also tried for a broad, eclectic bunch.

In no particular order:

Candide; Voltaire

The Truth; Pratchett (about writing, of course)

Watership Down; Adams

Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves; Wodehouse ("I marmaladed a slice of toast with something of a flourish...")

The Bonfire of the Vanities; Tom Wolfe (A bit dated, perhaps, but he does really nail character.)

You Can't Go Home Again; the other Tom Wolfe

Batman: Year One; Miller

At the Sign of the Naked Waiter; Herrick

The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon; King

A Wizard of Earthsea; Le Guin

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time; Haddon

Yes, these go to eleven. It's one louder.

-Ted

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

Ted Carmichael, Ph.D.

Complex Systems Institute

Department of Software and Information Systems

College of Computing and Informatics

310-A Woodward Hall

UNC Charlotte

Charlotte, NC 28223

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

Phone: 704-492-4902

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Victoria Hughes

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Well, yes but have you read him?

Despite being an enormous fan I did not mention him until three others had done so.

On Oct 11, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

Me thinks submissions are continuing to digress away from the Best Works for a Literary Education goal.
Thanks
Robert C

On 10/11/10 11:30 AM, Victoria Hughes wrote:
Great to meet yet another Pratchett fan.
If you had to pick one Pratchett, which would it be?

I'd go for Thief of Time...
Tory

On Oct 11, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Ted Carmichael wrote:

Soooo difficult to find only ten. And I'm not sure what to do with the "literature" requirement ... I like well-written stories that transcend genre, but I wouldn't claim that is enough. And while I would recommend everything from, say, Terry Pratchett or P.G. Wodehouse, I've tried to pick typical examples for the uninitiated. I've also tried for a broad, eclectic bunch.

In no particular order:

Candide; Voltaire

The Truth; Pratchett (about writing, of course)

Watership Down; Adams

Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves; Wodehouse ("I marmaladed a slice of toast with something of a flourish...")

The Bonfire of the Vanities; Tom Wolfe (A bit dated, perhaps, but he does really nail character.)

You Can't Go Home Again; the other Tom Wolfe

Batman: Year One; Miller

At the Sign of the Naked Waiter; Herrick

The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon; King

A Wizard of Earthsea; Le Guin

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time; Haddon

Yes, these go to eleven. It's one louder.

-Ted

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

Ted Carmichael, Ph.D.

Complex Systems Institute

Department of Software and Information Systems

College of Computing and Informatics

310-A Woodward Hall

UNC Charlotte

Charlotte, NC 28223

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

Phone: 704-492-4902

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Victoria Hughes

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

Just checking - this is the Friam list and not the discuss list, right?

On Oct 11, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

Me thinks submissions are continuing to digress away from the Best Works for a Literary Education goal.
Thanks
Robert C

On 10/11/10 11:30 AM, Victoria Hughes wrote:
Great to meet yet another Pratchett fan.
If you had to pick one Pratchett, which would it be?

I'd go for Thief of Time...
Tory

On Oct 11, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Ted Carmichael wrote:

Soooo difficult to find only ten. And I'm not sure what to do with the "literature" requirement ... I like well-written stories that transcend genre, but I wouldn't claim that is enough. And while I would recommend everything from, say, Terry Pratchett or P.G. Wodehouse, I've tried to pick typical examples for the uninitiated. I've also tried for a broad, eclectic bunch.

In no particular order:

Candide; Voltaire

The Truth; Pratchett (about writing, of course)

Watership Down; Adams

Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves; Wodehouse ("I marmaladed a slice of toast with something of a flourish...")

The Bonfire of the Vanities; Tom Wolfe (A bit dated, perhaps, but he does really nail character.)

You Can't Go Home Again; the other Tom Wolfe

Batman: Year One; Miller

At the Sign of the Naked Waiter; Herrick

The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon; King

A Wizard of Earthsea; Le Guin

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time; Haddon

Yes, these go to eleven. It's one louder.

-Ted

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

Ted Carmichael, Ph.D.

Complex Systems Institute

Department of Software and Information Systems

College of Computing and Informatics

310-A Woodward Hall

UNC Charlotte

Charlotte, NC 28223

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

Phone: 704-492-4902

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Scott R. Powell

Re: The Best 10 Fictional Works

Du hast Recht.

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just checking - this is the Friam list and not the discuss list, right?
On Oct 11, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
Me thinks submissions are continuing to digress away from the Best Works for a Literary Education goal.
Thanks
Robert C

On 10/11/10 11:30 AM, Victoria Hughes wrote:
Great to meet yet another Pratchett fan.
If you had to pick one Pratchett, which would it be?

I'd go for Thief of Time...
Tory

On Oct 11, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Ted Carmichael wrote:

Soooo difficult to find only ten. And I'm not sure what to do with the "literature" requirement ... I like well-written stories that transcend genre, but I wouldn't claim that is enough. And while I would recommend everything from, say, Terry Pratchett or P.G. Wodehouse, I've tried to pick typical examples for the uninitiated. I've also tried for a broad, eclectic bunch.

In no particular order:

Candide; Voltaire

The Truth; Pratchett (about writing, of course)

Watership Down; Adams

Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves; Wodehouse ("I marmaladed a slice of toast with something of a flourish...")

The Bonfire of the Vanities; Tom Wolfe (A bit dated, perhaps, but he does really nail character.)

You Can't Go Home Again; the other Tom Wolfe

Batman: Year One; Miller

At the Sign of the Naked Waiter; Herrick

The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon; King

A Wizard of Earthsea; Le Guin

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time; Haddon

Yes, these go to eleven. It's one louder.

-Ted

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Being here in Italy, Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose comes to mind. The translation is considered quite good, and it reads very well.

---- Owen

I am an iPad, resistance is futile!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

Ted Carmichael, Ph.D.

Complex Systems Institute

Department of Software and Information Systems

College of Computing and Informatics

310-A Woodward Hall

UNC Charlotte

Charlotte, NC 28223

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

Phone: 704-492-4902

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes
[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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